I strongly disagree.
Sheilah
[QUOTE=Countrywood;8540165]
True mutts have crossbred vigor because the random nature of the breeding guarantees different genetics and many in fact resemble “the perfect dog” [/QUOTE]
This is just not true. Mutts will have the genetics given to them by their parents, grand-parents and so on, just like the purebreds. If the parent stock is deficient, the offspring will be also. Bad genetics being passed down through generations is bad genetics being passed down through the generations. Doesn’t matter if you’re looking at a registered, poorly bred purebred or a “true mutt”.
Sheilah
[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;8540151]
Are the people who are crossbreeding to get these types of dogs using good dogs to produce them?
As for getting purebreds, it is hard to get one from one of the premier breeders. [/QUOTE]
No, for the most part, the breeders of these cross-bred puppies are using purebred dogs that were either sold on a limited registration contract or sold by a BYB that didn’t know/care about what might be breeding quality. In most cases, it has been my experience that they are not using the best to breed to the best. Good, reputable breeders want the puppies they are producing that are of breeding quality to go towards improving their breed of choice, not to some mix of breeds. So the purebreds being used are most often of inferior quality to begin with.
It seems to me that the people who think getting a good puppy from a good, reputable breeder is difficult are those buyers who:
A) don’t want to wait more than a few days to get a puppy once they decide to get one (“I have a three day weekend this week and I want my new puppy to be in my home by Friday evening so I can use the long weekend to bond”)
B)Don’t want to be told by a good, reputable breeder that the breed they want is not a good fit for their life style (“I grew up with a Basset Hound and my older brother took it jogging seven miles every day, so the six breeders who refused to sell my a puppy because I want a jogging buddy are rude and wrong. The “farmer” I bought my Basset puppy from said I could start running half-marathons with my Basset as soon as the pup was six months old-which means I bought from a great breeder because he told me to build up to the half-marathons over the next four months and not just start tomorrow”)
C) refuse to pay what a good, reputable breeder will charge because they “just want a pet, so why pay for a show dog”. Never giving a thought to all the time and effort and money a good, reputable breeder puts into the litters they produce before they ever hit the ground.
I have seen this play out over and over again during the decades that I have been involved with purebred dogs.
Sheilah
[QUOTE=Sswor;8540012]
I hate to say it but it’s probably easier to get a well bred cross breed from a good breeder then a well bred purebred from a good breeder. Meaning actually get one, not find one.[/QUOTE]
What utter and complete BS! There’s just unlikely to be instant gratification. I know many, many, breeders of high quality puppies from health tested and titled parents. They have waiting lists.
You had to have a puppy right this minute and chose to support an Amish breeder. Presumably with none of the recommended health testing done on the parents.
[QUOTE=Marshfield;8540511]
What utter and complete BS! There’s just unlikely to be instant gratification. I know many, many, breeders of high quality puppies from health tested and titled parents. They have waiting lists.[/QUOTE]
I actually know some excellent breeders with high quality puppies that don’t have waiting lists, too. Meaning that you might be able to get a puppy without waiting a year. But you do have to actually look for them, talk to them, and usually go to meet them before they agree to sell you a puppy. As they should - that way they try to make sure they do not set up a puppy or a buyer for failure and send a dog into rescue.
[QUOTE=Marshfield;8540511]
What utter and complete BS! There’s just unlikely to be instant gratification. I know many, many, breeders of high quality puppies from health tested and titled parents. They have waiting lists.
You had to have a puppy right this minute and chose to support an Amish breeder. Presumably with none of the recommended health testing done on the parents.[/QUOTE]
I agree. I’ve seen the results of bad breeding in rescues from the puppy mills, both in GA and in the midwest where MO is a leading offender,along with Kansas.
[QUOTE=Marshfield;8540511]
What utter and complete BS! There’s just unlikely to be instant gratification. I know many, many, breeders of high quality puppies from health tested and titled parents. They have waiting lists.
You had to have a puppy right this minute and chose to support an Amish breeder. Presumably with none of the recommended health testing done on the parents.[/QUOTE]
Hi. How is that different then going to the shelter and getting a dog?
[QUOTE=Sswor;8540526]
Hi. How is that different then going to the shelter and getting a dog?[/QUOTE]
Because when you pay to adopt an animal from the shelter they don’t turn around and give that money to the crap breeder. BYBs won’t breed if they can’t sell the pups for money. It’s a simple thought process that you just want to pretend you don’t understand. You were suggested several rescues that had puppies in the cross you wanted but came up with excuse after excuse why those dogs were unacceptable.
And no, good farmers breed their dogs to their neighbors dogs, they want to breed the best workers together. And when they do their neighbors want one of those performance bred puppies. But again, you have to come up with justification for buying your BYB Amish miller puppy.
[QUOTE=Sswor;8540526]
Hi. How is that different then going to the shelter and getting a dog?[/QUOTE]
Because you didn’t go to a shelter and get a dog?
You paid a bad breeder for a puppy.
Shelters don’t produce/breed dogs on purpose to make money. If they did I would never in the world support that shelter. In fact I don’t support shelters that don’t require spay/neuter. Preferably before the dogs leave their care.
it is a lot different, to me anyway.
Focus on the debate rather then making personal attacks against me because I have a different opinion about dog breeding. It’s uncalled for.
Farmers breeding two good dogs together usually produces a lot more puppies then one new dog for each farmer. The rest have to go somewhere. I have gotten 3 good dogs this way for not a lot of money; 2 Amish and 1 English, and I am not a farmer. I really don’t have a problem with this, nor do I consider buying a working dog crossbred puppy from a farmer supporting a “puppymill”, Amish or not.
Now, my 20-something neighbors down the street who were breeding and selling “Old English Bulldogs” for $1400, so said the yard sign, are very sketchy. The stud dog was a fence jumper and ended up getting dumped at the pound, so says the 8yo free range daughter. I have no idea what happened to the bitch, I only saw her once or twice tied out in the front yard, but kiddo reports Daddy got rid of the dogs because her’s (kiddo’s) kept running away.
Not much point in that anecdote except to say that puppymills are not at all exclusive to crossbreeds, nor Amish farms, and actually purebreds sell for much more, so if profit is the goal, purebreds are where it’s at. And if you check out the facebook dogs for sale groups, you’ll see everybody and their brother is doing it out of their living room. Being a fan of mutt dogs, I just wanted to offer a dissenting opinion.
Actually, puppy mills focus on whatever is lucrative, which currently is crossing a poodle with everything under the sun.
Personally I like to know that if I’m going to spend money on a dog it’s more likely than not to be a healthy active companion for years to come. Currently I’m doing health screenings on my most recent addition because the woman who bred him lied about a lot of the health testing she did (or in some cases didn’t do!). I don’t really want to deal with that again.
[QUOTE=Horsegal984;8540600]
Actually, puppy mills focus on whatever is lucrative, which currently is crossing a poodle with everything under the sun.
Personally I like to know that if I’m going to spend money on a dog it’s more likely than not to be a healthy active companion for years to come. Currently I’m doing health screenings on my most recent addition because the woman who bred him lied about a lot of the health testing she did (or in some cases didn’t do!). I don’t really want to deal with that again.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you and with fordtractor. I’ve never bred any of the dogs I got from shelters (or scraped off the road) nor have I ever bred any of my Las Rocosa Aussies. No need to when Elaine and Ernest Hartnagle were always there to take my money for an aussie. (Elaine died over a year ago and their son has the long waiting list, and I don’t feel like filling out an application since I’ve bought Las Rocosas from them since 1971.) No need to breed a shelter dog since there are many at the pound being Euthed because others just keep on breeding.
What do these designer dogs do? Poodles used to be german hunting dogs before they were miniaturized. Are people buying the designer dogs for pets or for working?
Imo , there should be dogs bred simply to make good pets. and available to people on limited budgets. Not every dog has to be a perfect specimen or even any particular breed.
The problem as we know is good old human greed…if there were ETHICAL guidelines and matching education for public, virtually nobody would breed until they had a wait list of at least several people for the litter. That would hold true whether it was a cross breed, pure breed, big $ or inexpensive.
But when it’s just breeding for profit, then we get litters bred without a waiting list of buyers and the puppies have to get sold fast, while they still are cute. To pet stores, on Craigslist, or any other way. If the entire litter does not get sold, the remainder gets dumped at a shelter or rescue or just plain dumped , (or killed perhaps who keeps track since breeders are not licensed and nobody knows what the worst of them do )
Of course there are other problems such as spay /neuter but that is not the topic of this discussion. The topic is deliberate cross breeding, this particular cross of golden doodle because it is so popular.
Would it surprise you, countrywood, for me to say that I agree with you?
Happy that we agree! 
[QUOTE=Countrywood;8540611]
Imo , there should be dogs bred simply to make good pets. and available to people on limited budgets. Not every dog has to be a perfect specimen or even any particular breed. [/QUOTE]
I don’t disagree; although I guess I am curious what you consider to be “limited budgets.” Because, I’m not sure the cost of a well-bred dog is what keeps people from buying one - the expensive designer mutt situation has sort of proven that since they are often more expensive than a well-bred purebred.
Imo, people on a limited budget means they have $300 to spend on a puppy. Many are family people, working people, etc. I think one fault with the “good breeders” is they don’t recognize that many people do not have $1200-$2500 to spend on a puppy. The folks buying doodle mixes are spending upward of 1k so it’s not a new market of cross breeding for working folks/budget buyers, it’s simply taking away the high end spenders away from buying a purebred and now they spend that money on a doodle mix instead.
I don’t pretend to have all the answers, but in an ideal world budget breeders would model the best practice of the high end breeders, which is to get a waiting list for a litter, not just produce litters and then try to find buyers.
Which would mean educating the public as well as teens/children about why this is so much better for dogs and prevents over breeding. Many people want to do the right thing but do not make the connection of how always having young puppies available so people can get one immediately creates over breeding and keeps puppy mills in business.
[QUOTE=Countrywood;8540679]
Imo, people on a limited budget means they have $300 to spend on a puppy. Many are family people, working people, etc. I think one fault with the “good breeders” is they don’t recognize that many people do not have $1200-$2500 to spend on a puppy. [/QUOTE]
I don’t think it’s that they don’t recognize it; it’s that they have spend so much money to title their dogs that they are unwilling to sell them for $300. I think there is definitely a market for pet dogs - they would still need health testing but not necessarily conformation or field titles. E.g. a good breeder could get CGC or some obedience titles, or work with some trainer(s) to temperament test the parents…then OFA certificates on hips, eyes and elbows…(or whatever is necessary for the breed.)
I would support breeders that worked like that. I’ve never seen one but maybe they exist.
[QUOTE=Countrywood;8540679]
Imo, people on a limited budget means they have $300 to spend on a puppy. Many are family people, working people, etc. I think one fault with the “good breeders” is they don’t recognize that many people do not have $1200-$2500 to spend on a puppy. The folks buying doodle mixes are spending upward of 1k so it’s not a new market of cross breeding for working folks/budget buyers, it’s simply taking away the high end spenders away from buying a purebred and now they spend that money on a doodle mix instead.
I don’t pretend to have all the answers, but in an ideal world budget breeders would model the best practice of the high end breeders, which is to get a waiting list for a litter, not just produce litters and then try to find buyers.
Which would mean educating the public as well as teens/children about why this is so much better for dogs and prevents over breeding. Many people want to do the right thing but do not make the connection of how always having young puppies available so people can get one immediately creates over breeding and keeps puppy mills in business.[/QUOTE]
If you can’t afford the purchase price, you can’t afford the critter!
Good breeders charge what they do because of what it cost them to produce the pup. They seldom break even, let alone make a profit:
Health checks, show expenses, vet cost.
