The “show quality” puppies in a well-bred litter will most often be outnumbered by the pet quality puppies. So there is your “good pet” right there. And when are people on a limited budget precluded from saving enough money to afford one of those well bred, pet quality pups that cost more than $300?
Sheilah
[QUOTE=Countrywood;8540679]
Imo, people on a limited budget means they have $300 to spend on a puppy. Many are family people, working people, etc. I think one fault with the “good breeders” is they don’t recognize that many people do not have $1200-$2500 to spend on a puppy. The folks buying doodle mixes are spending upward of 1k so it’s not a new market of cross breeding for working folks/budget buyers, it’s simply taking away the high end spenders away from buying a purebred and now they spend that money on a doodle mix instead.
I don’t pretend to have all the answers, but in an ideal world budget breeders would model the best practice of the high end breeders, which is to get a waiting list for a litter, not just produce litters and then try to find buyers.
Which would mean educating the public as well as teens/children about why this is so much better for dogs and prevents over breeding. Many people want to do the right thing but do not make the connection of how always having young puppies available so people can get one immediately creates over breeding and keeps puppy mills in business.[/QUOTE]
$300 doesn’t even get you a shelter puppy in my area. I had a client come in today who wants to breed her Australian Cattle Dog. No titles. Just to do the recommended health testing for her bitch from the CHIC website is going to put her in the $1500 to $1800 range. Add in bare bones stud fee and puppy raising costs (without the possibility of a c-section) gets her likely to the $3200 range. This places no value on her labor. A litter of four puppies would have to sell for $800 a piece for her to break even. Add in a c-section and there’s another $1200 (minimum) invested. Anyone who is doing things “right” and selling puppies for $300 is going to be losing a ton of money.
I find it hard to believe breeders producing multiple litters don’t make a profit. The websites of the doodle mix breeders show multiple sets of parents, I don’t know how many litters they produce a year…12? If each litter averages 6 pups and they sell for $1800 each, that’s $129,000 a year. Most of these dogs are never shown, and even factoring in vet bills, a website and food costs, seems pretty profitable. Even if they produce 6 litters a year, and sell the pups for $1800 each avg 6 pups to a litter that’s $65,000 a year. Minus estimate $25,000 in vet and food costs that nets $40,000 a year from 6 litters.
People who breed one or two litters a year out of love or to better a breed, would not make a profit or just a small one.
Clearly there is a gap left open filled by the puppy mills and BY breeders selling puppies at lower prices and who can offer with no or few questions asked of the buyer an immediate puppy.
The main problem is ignorance of public expecting puppies to be available for sale. Or outrage at being asked what kind of home they will give a puppy. Most of the lower price breeders would drop out if they had to operate the way higher standard breeders do ( a waiting list for a litter and qualifying people for homes ). Which would be a good thing.(only unlikely to happen since people want the “right” to be able to buy a puppy any time they feel like it and not have to justify to anyone what kind of home they will provide)
[QUOTE=Countrywood;8541438]
I find it hard to believe breeders who are breeding more than one or 2 litters a year don’t make a profit. [/QUOTE]
Sure, the crappy breeders make a huge profit. Because they don’t title their dogs or do the health testing that they should.
Good breeders that put titles on their dogs are unlikely to make a profit, even if they charge a lot for puppies. A conformation title takes 15 points with 2 majors (of at least 3 points each.) Even if your dog finished easily, it probably still would go to more than 15 shows…x $30 for entries + gas, lodging, grooming, handling, food, etc. Even 15 shows is a pretty conservative number; only one male and female can earn points at any one show…so the odds of losing are pretty high, even with a good dog. I’d say the average cost of a conformation title is AT LEAST a couple/few thousand dollars IF you show your own dog. If you pay a handler…that price can be a lot higher.
Health testing varies by breed; my dog’s health testing probably only cost about $500 or so…maybe a little more. OFA xrays for hips and elbows were probably about $300; patellas were done during a regular vet exam, so we could say <$100; eyes were $75 (should be done annually, but we can count it once)…
Then repro exam/pre-breeding costs; and then breeding costs - stud fee costs, travel and boarding costs for the bitch, possibly repro assistance depending on need.
Whelping costs…which vary depending on whether you had an emergency or not…
Litter care/vet care/feeding, etc.
I’m not a breeder, and I only own males. My stud dog has been used only once, and the demand for males is not incredibly high unless they are exceptional and are seen – you don’t usually get asked to be used for stud if you finished your dog and never showed him again - so you’re also talking about a “specials campaign” of sorts in order to be considered. I bet I’ve spent more than $10K showing my dog. No $1000 stud fee makes up for that. 
Health testing varies by breed; my dog’s health testing probably only cost about $500 or so…maybe a little more. OFA xrays for hips and elbows were probably about $300; patellas were done during a regular vet exam, so we could say <$100; eyes were $75 (should be done annually, but we can count it once)…
Is this saying eyes should be rechecked annually or are all of these tests performed annually?
[QUOTE=Sswor;8541488]
Is this saying eyes should be rechecked annually or are all of these tests performed annually?[/QUOTE]
No, just the eyes…but this is just for my breed; I don’t know what tests are common for other breeds and/or how often they might need to be checked. E.g. things like hips are usually a one time only evaluation - but things like cardiac, eyes, thyroid, etc. might need to be checked more than once. Obviously if they are bad the first time you never use the dog; but having no eye problems noted at age 2 doesn’t necessarily mean the dog will never show symptoms of a congenital eye issue.
The general public does not care about "titling"a puppy or if its parents were shown, they just want a healthy, nice disposition pet of a certain breed or mix . And what are the mystery added extensive high $ health/ tests beyond what is done when a breeding dog is young?
There are breeders that can target buyers who want and will pay a premium for show lineage or titles. But most pet buyers don’t care about such , making it odd that “good” breeders fail to recognize such a a basic fact. .
I don’t have all the answers , none of us do; but clearly there is a big gap between the high price litters of “good” breeders and all the rest out there, being offered on CL or pet stores…some of which may in fact be decent, healthy pups and others inferior or with health problems from puppy mills…who can tell the difference when it’s all unregulated. Many have an idea about puppy mills but do not realize, or want to think that the nice person from CL saying they had an “oops” litter is fronting for a puppy mill.
The public does not realize indeed it is their own desire to buy a puppy when they want it rather than be on a wait list which forms the basis of the problem and perhaps that is where education of people might be a goal?
The ignorance of public about animal welfare of dogs and cats pales in comparison to what goes on in intensive farming so perhaps we need public outreach on a broad scale starting with kids as the next generation.
What if you had a crossbreed that was titled in agility, and had basic tests done to certify health, and perhaps the dog earned CGC or some such certificate. Would a dog like this receive the community’s blessing to breed for the purpose of producing good agility dogs and/or pets?
I would imagine animal community would bless it and people would line up to buy a dog like that, the price might be an issue of course but maybe not to buyers wanting obedience/athletic talent rather than breed specific.
All these goals such as above are great but a few people doing that would still leave the main problem out there unaddressed.
[QUOTE=Sswor;8541564]
What if you had a crossbreed that was titled in agility, and had basic tests done to certify health, and perhaps the dog earned CGC or some such certificate. Would a dog like this receive the community’s blessing to breed for the purpose of producing good agility dogs and/or pets?[/QUOTE]
You can’t register with AKC for agility events/CGC/etc. without saying your pet is neutered/spayed if you go with the PAL or Canine Partners program:
I (we) certify that this dog has been spayed/neutered or that it, being a puppy, will be spayed/neutered at such time as recommended by my veterinarian and that I (we) will submit written verification if requested by the American Kennel Club.
http://www.akc.org/dog-owners/canine-partners/enroll/
Yes, it’s on the honor system.
[QUOTE=Sswor;8541564]
What if you had a crossbreed that was titled in agility, and had basic tests done to certify health, and perhaps the dog earned CGC or some such certificate. Would a dog like this receive the community’s blessing to breed for the purpose of producing good agility dogs and/or pets?[/QUOTE]
It would still be pretty much a crapshoot as to the offspring, because you wouldn’t necessarily have had generations of known/reliable breeding behind the parent(s). But I would have less of a problem with this (especially if there was a ready list of people who wanted the offspring) than with someone who just thinks any old random poodle and golden are the ticket to big bucks. I personally don’t have a problem with people who breed dogs that do a job to create more dogs that do a job and aren’t as fussy about registration/showing (i.e. farm collies, working BCs, etc.) but that’s not really what the OP was asking about or what a majority of “oodle” breeding is about.
I can see where some crossbreeding produces a useful offsping (lurchers, for example). I cannot see what crossing a poodle with a golden/lab does to produce anything useful that is not already true of the standard poodle. The golden/lab adds nothing that the poodle doesn’t already have, except to totally muddy the gene pool and create unpredictible offspring. All 3 of these breeds are LOVELY but the things people say they WANT in a goldendoodle/labradoodle (not shedding, friendly, athletic, trainable, a good family pet) are MORE true of a poodle than they are of some random cross. So this particular cross seems like little more than vanity to me.
What people really want is a non-shedding dog that they can feel fancy about and that somehow doesn’t have any frou-frou connotation like a poodle (though anyone who has worked with STANDARDS would be hard pressed to call them frou-frou). That is not a reason to crossbreed.
[QUOTE=cnm161;8541600]
You can’t register with AKC for agility events/CGC/etc. without saying your pet is neutered/spayed if you go with the PAL or Canine Partners program:
http://www.akc.org/dog-owners/canine-partners/enroll/
Yes, it’s on the honor system.[/QUOTE]
There are other ways to title your dog in agility rather then AKC, and they don’t have to be altered. That’s what I was referring to. I wouldn’t lie to title a dog, especially since it’s not necessary.
[QUOTE=vxf111;8541601]
It would still be pretty much a crapshoot as to the offspring, because you wouldn’t necessarily have had generations of known/reliable breeding behind the parent(s). [/QUOTE]
Indeed the question would be; what to breed your agility titled crossbreed to.
[QUOTE=Sswor;8541619]
Indeed the question would be; what to breed your agility titled crossbreed to.[/QUOTE]
I probably still wouldn’t do it because, again, the outcome would be so much less predictable. But I would have less of an issue with someone who had one good dog that they did a lot with and had a list of homes for a 1-time breeding of that good dog than I would someone in the business of crossing poodles with anything that stands still long enough to make money.
[QUOTE=Countrywood;8541543]
The general public does not care about "titling"a puppy or if its parents were shown, they just want a healthy, nice disposition pet of a certain breed or mix . And what are the mystery added extensive high $ health/ tests beyond what is done when a breeding dog is young? [/QUOTE]
I agree with you that most pet owners don’t care about titles, or at least not about conformation titles (I think many pet owners would value basic obedience titles and/or working/hunting titles).
But the health tests are not a mystery; it’s dependent on the breed. Looks like for ACDs there are recommended DNA tests to rule out specific congenital eye problems; for my breed it is recommended that they are tested annually (obviously two different eye issues).
I don’t know why there aren’t many breeders that breed for the pet market - using good, structurally sound and bred to the breed standard (even if not to be titled in conformation), health tested, and potentially titled in obedience/CGC titles that would be valued by pet owners.
I think there would be a great market for this. I still don’t know if you could really ever make a “profit” - one good emergency will wipe out profits from previous litters, though.
[QUOTE=vxf111;8541601]
It would still be pretty much a crapshoot as to the offspring, because you wouldn’t necessarily have had generations of known/reliable breeding behind the parent(s). But I would have less of a problem with this (especially if there was a ready list of people who wanted the offspring) than with someone who just thinks any old random poodle and golden are the ticket to big bucks. I personally don’t have a problem with people who breed dogs that do a job to create more dogs that do a job and aren’t as fussy about registration/showing (i.e. farm collies, working BCs, etc.) but that’s not really what the OP was asking about or what a majority of “oodle” breeding is about.
I can see where some crossbreeding produces a useful offsping (lurchers, for example). I cannot see what crossing a poodle with a golden/lab does to produce anything useful that is not already true of the standard poodle. The golden/lab adds nothing that the poodle doesn’t already have, except to totally muddy the gene pool and create unpredictible offspring. All 3 of these breeds are LOVELY but the things people say they WANT in a goldendoodle/labradoodle (not shedding, friendly, athletic, trainable, a good family pet) are MORE true of a poodle than they are of some random cross. So this particular cross seems like little more than vanity to me.
What people really want is a non-shedding dog that they can feel fancy about and that somehow doesn’t have any frou-frou connotation like a poodle (though anyone who has worked with STANDARDS would be hard pressed to call them frou-frou). That is not a reason to crossbreed.[/QUOTE]
My understanding is that labradoodles were first developed in Australia as a seeing eye dog for people that are allergic to dogs or who have family members that are allergic. While the standard poodle is extremely smart they apparently do not make a good seeing eye dog/service dog.
However, the original breed concept was not done with random labs and random poodles. These were from very specific lines and were well bred dogs themselves.
The last I read some service dog breeders of the labradoodle have now added terrier to the mix to increase the hypoallergenic chances. I think soft coated Wheaten in particular.
Incidentally the original breeder of labradoodles for service dogs has stated he wished he never did the cross as he feels it created a Frankenbreed.
I think the original concept is a good one if the breedings are well thought out. However those that cater to the pet market don’t tend to be well thought out breedings and are just a cash cow.
What happened in a small controlled breeding program in Australia has NOTHING to do with what is going on with oodle breeding now in the U.S. Those people were using well-selected stock and trying to breed for conformity well beyond the F1 generation and had a very narrow, specific purpose for those dogs. It’s really apples and oranges.
[QUOTE=Sswor;8541564]
What if you had a crossbreed that was titled in agility, and had basic tests done to certify health, and perhaps the dog earned CGC or some such certificate. Would a dog like this receive the community’s blessing to breed for the purpose of producing good agility dogs and/or pets?[/QUOTE]
IF all the health testing was done, for both breeds that make up the dog, and IF it was being bred to another titled health tested dog and there was a waiting list then I would have less of a problem than with it than most of the -oodle breeding that’s happening now a days.
For example, your specific cross (ACD/JRT) both breeds are affected by PLL, primary lens luxation. Basically the lens of the eye detaches and slips out of place, causing immense pain, glaucoma and blindness. The treatment consists of removing the eye. Often it is bilateral, meaning once one eye goes the other is soon to follow. Aside from genetic testing, there is no way to predict when/if it will effect a dog, nor no way to decrease the chances of it happening.
It’s one of the tests I’m doing on my ACD, because I need to know instead of spending the next years of his life worrying about it. I will be absolutely devistated if he is affected. I have watched too many dogs, ACDs specifically, be stuck down in their prime from it. One was a top performing agility dog, and within 6 months had to have both eyes removed, another was almost 10 before it affected him. Both rescues.
So I do not support any breeding without health testing, because think about how many litters that 10 year old dog could have produced before anybody knew he had it. There are so many conditions that are not obvious until later on in life that you can’t just look at a dog and say it’s healthy, or assume it’s working so it must be sound.
Unless dogs are sickly, imo (just imo) health testing is less important than that more breeding of any kind simply contributes more to the pet over population. It is the same short sightedness of horse breeding which now results in so many unwanted horses can’t even give them away. Happening to warmbloods to onow they are turning up as give away, in feedlots etc.
What is so hard for people to understand…dogs live 10-14 years so it’s not like people are going to go out and buy another one any time soon.
Unless there is extreme need out there, if one really cares about animal welfare, just don’t breed. There are lots of great dogs and puppies avail to buy or adopt for agility of all breeds and sizes and mixes.
I don’t hate doodles and the cross seems pleasant enough but all the addition of them to the canine world did was divert potential owners away from existing poodles, goldens or labs.
[QUOTE=Countrywood;8541981]
Unless dogs are sickly, imo (just imo) health testing is less important than that more breeding of any kind simply contributes more to the pet over population. It is the same short sightedness of horse breeding which now results in so many unwanted horses can’t even give them away. Happening to warmbloods to onow they are turning up as give away, in feedlots etc.
What is so hard for people to understand…dogs live 10-14 years so it’s not like people are going to go out and buy another one any time soon.
Unless there is extreme need out there, if one really cares about animal welfare, just don’t breed. There are lots of great dogs and puppies avail to buy or adopt for agility of all breeds and sizes and mixes.
I don’t hate doodles and the cross seems pleasant enough but all the addition of them to the canine world did was divert potential owners away from existing poodles, goldens or labs.[/QUOTE]
So, you don’t see the need in testing for HYPP? Because we shouldn’t be breeding period?
I agree, there should be far less litters available than there are, but thanks to people like Sswor who have to have their new puppy RIGHT THIS VERY MINUTE greeders and millers will continue to mass produce puppies. However, those are the same people who will never health test because it cuts into their profit, and quite frankly they don’t care if your dog is healthy. The sooner it dies the sooner you buy another.
What I would like to see is more education and emphasis put into why health testing is important and helping John Q Public understand the value in doing it.
