Good brained horse bolting EDIT - XRAYS ADDED PG 2

[Torre]

Hi everyone, I’d like everyone’s insight and experience.

My gelding (green ottb, 10 y/o, 79 starts, 6 months of retraining) [truly] bolted yesterday. He is very green to jumping, so we do under 2 foot, mostly coming in at the trot. He’s naturally forward, but great brain. I actually trot over an xbar to get canter departs right now, because he lands so even and nicely (as opposed to the t/c transition on the flat…). Always has been very quiet to and after fences through the retraining process. Pretty soft mouth with good downwards.

Yesterday we warmed up long and low w/t, and he felt nice. Trotted up to an xbar a few times, and he was lurching over and rushing on the backside… kinda unusual but OK. Halted at the rail and continued another few times with the same results. A few of which were pretty sketchy on the backside, nearly out of control, but pulled up within 2 circles.

Decided to lower to poles to end the day since we weren’t getting anywhere. Trotted up, and he proceeded to leap the poles, and then took off for a few strides, and then bolted. By bolt, I mean dead gallop, brain gone, no steering, no regard for his or my safety-- panic. It was a gear I have never seen any horse go in an arena. Managed to stay on and gradually worked into a 1 rein stop after about 45 seconds (he was trying to gallop on a 10m circle near the end). Bit was a nathe, which was zero help. Was actually quite a dangerous and scary situation.

I walked a bit and did lateral work, and then trotted long and low to end. All fine and fairly relaxed, albeit a bit more forward.

I’m an experienced rider with retraining experience and show experience up to 3’6.

-----------------PHYSICAL:

Horse had SI and hocks injected a few weeks ago, and was also diagnosed with mild kissing spine (3 vertebrae touching) recently. This was found coincidentally, horse does NOT palpate sore over the KS area. Vet told me not to worry but we’ll need to keep an eye on it.

Horse was scoped 2 weeks ago after a month of BPR- a few ulcers left, although the vet said they didnt look irritated. Symptoms were and are still pretty bad… belly and side sensitivity, lip curling/biting xties while saddling, going off feed, etc. Thought I’d see a lot more than what was there in the scope considering his symptoms. Started him on double dose of BPR 2 days ago per vets instructions.

He’s on alfalfa grass mix, TC senior, gut supplements, smartdigest Ultra and equishure to address potential HG issues.
5 hour a day turnout in a field (not ideal in the winter, but this has been his routine for a few months, and NEVER seen anything close to this behavior.)

Could the KS be an issue even though he doesn’t palpate sore over the area? Or could the ulcers be a factor?
It was my impression ulcers made a horse more lethargic under saddle… anyone with the opposite experience?

Help COTH! Impressions? Experiences? This is really stressing me out.

[Pennywell_Bay]

I’d still think the KS, but I’ll share that a few weeks ago I had the worst lesson. My docile, well trained mare bolted and spun. Splat I went.

Next lesson- perfect. And with little turnout and minimal riding. If you’ve ruled out physical- all I can offer is it is that time of year.

[Daventry]

In my experience, a horse that suddenly starts doing this, when it has never been an issue previously, is usually due to pain. Whether it be an ill-fitting saddle or bit, dental issues, body soreness or feet. With the medical history you described, it sounds like he may be suffering from back pain. Maybe his back started pinching over fences? Horses can’t speak so they are forced to find another way to communicate with us. If we listen close enough, I find horses will start to whisper and let us know there is a problem developing. If no one listens, they start to “speak” louder. When we still don’t listen, they start to scream. I believe at this point, he is screaming. Now it’s your job to figure out why.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I’ve had ulcers light them up before. Also don’t know where you are but I know some of my horses are more nutsy than normal right now. Footing is so crappy in their turn out that I think they just have more pent up energy. I wouldn’t panic yet. And if he is symptomatic for ulcers…just keep treating. But what you described does sound like a pain reaction.

[Torre]

Thanks for the replies so far. Would it be possible for the KS to be an issue even when he isn’t sore over the area? The vet was pushing pretty hard on either side of the spine and got no reaction.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

I’ll throw saddle fit into the mix (on my mind since I have an appointment with a fitter tomorrow). As in, if the horse is known to have kissing spines, you really really really don’t have much latitude on saddle fit.

[Melissa.Van_Doren]

It’s absolutely possible that the movement involved in taking off/jumping/landing is causing more pain to his KS than the vet ever could with palpation.

[2DogsFarm]

I would tend toward the KS as jumping - even tiny fences - could be the straw that pushed it into high gear.
Vet palpating would not produce the same reaction as horse landing his weight & yours on the backside of the fence.
IIWM, I’d report it to the vet who diagnosed KS, for discussion at least.

Friend just had to retire his 3’ Hunter for KS that had progressed.
18yo and had campaigned pretty often the season before.

[Edre]

KS + saddle fit maybe? I think that sounds like it could be a combination that may produce this sort of result. With the sudden onset, it does sound like pain or discomfort somewhere.

On the other hand, if you are able to eliminate pain as a factor for this: I would definitely step away from the crossrails for a while. Whatever it is about them seems to have gotten to his brain if indeed, it isn’t a pain response to jumping. He may just be saying that it’s too much too quickly, although it sounds like you’ve done a good job bringing him along reasonably. In the event you can eliminate pain and are looking at approaches to try to de-stress jumping, I would suggest some of the walk exercises over poles - loose rein, long and low, no-pressure moments that just happen along a swinging free walk “oh hey here’s a pole to walk over” and then gradually introduce more “oh hello here’s two” and “here’s some that are meant to invite you to naturally shorten your pace” and “here’s a distance meant to encourage you to take a longer step”. Keep the pressure low, don’t do it often, and see if that helps de-bug his brain about the idea of going over them? Once the walk is NBD over poles of different configurations, start it at a long/low stretchy trot, so on and so forth?

While not in this specific situation (that again, does sound like pain is a key culprit) I have seen horses (especially young horses/in retraining) get a bug in their bonnet about things they were previously alright with - typically it meant that things needed to be brought back a few steps to make them feel less pressured. All things considered, six months isn’t a terribly long time and it sounds like he’s made leaps and bounds in his progress with you so maybe this is contributing to it.

[CanteringCarrot]

You could be dealing with multiple factors here. The more obvious being the Kissing Spines, ulcers, and perhaps saddle fit. There could be something else going on in is body too.

I had a horse with kissing spines and he never palpated sore, but I could tell it effected him in his work.

Ulcers can also make a horse miserable. Especially when all that stomach acid gets moving around while the horse is in motion.

If he is struggling with canter departs and now bolting at the canter, I am thinking that gait exacerbates whatever his source of pain may be.

How is he when lunged?

I get the winter having an effect, but a straight up lose your mind flat out bolt, would alarm me a bit more.

[kande04]

@Torre

Thanks for the replies so far. Would it be possible for the KS to be an issue even when he isn’t sore over the area? The vet was pushing pretty hard on either side of the spine and got no reaction.

Of course it’s a possibility, because they may only become excruciating when he’s forced to jump. Maybe it’s connected to the long and low warmup, or the position he’s ridden in, or who knows what? But it sounds to me that he’s telling you, loud and clear, that he needs something other than what he’s getting.

[LookmaNohands]

Pain. Check back and saddle fit. Maybe hocks.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@Torre

Thanks for the replies so far. Would it be possible for the KS to be an issue even when he isn’t sore over the area? The vet was pushing pretty hard on either side of the spine and got no reaction.

Possibly. But more likely he has something else IME. Like a pinch in neck or saddle fit or teeth. I’ve had several horses with KS. It’s not uncommon. I’ve had bucking, rearing and just stopping as the more typical reaction. And it doesn’t just suddenly come on.

Bolting like you have described I’ve typically had with an OTTB that hasn’t been allowed to go forward and who has been stuck in the ring too much. But I wouldn’t rule out physical. If it’s way out of character and sudden it does sound like pain.

[TMares]

A dressage horse local to me was written off as rogue and unreliable and dangerous for his violent aversion to one tempis. Finally someone xrayed his neck and found a mess of issues. He’s right as rain now with appropriate medical and surgical intervention.

[BeeHoney]

I don’t think there is an easy answer to your question. When a horse bolts, I think it’s pretty common for people to speculate about pain issues. And, while I think that’s a reasonable possibility to consider, I also think that the potential sources for that pain would be things that would be hard to prove and/or treat with 100% certainty. KS, for example, can be a nebulous diagnosis in a lot of cases.

I will say that from my own experience, all of the bolters I have ever come across were horses that were otherwise “good-brained” and reasonable–none were hot/nervous types. I would say that of the horses that bolted dangerously once, almost all ended up doing it again.

I do not think that bolting is a variation on “going forward” or some kind of evasion from training. True bolting is a very different thing from a horse that is strong and testing its rider’s control. A bolting horse is on a different plane where a flight mechanism has been engaged in their brain. This makes it extremely dangerous–a bolting horse has little regard for its own safety and is “shut down” from accepting input from a rider or handler. And I think that is also why it is such a difficult problem to treat. When a horse is bolting, there is no getting through to them. So, it’s a question of how do you stop them from going to “that place” in their brain to begin with? Also, IME, what sets off a bolter can be hard to predict. They might be fine for months, and then be set off my something trivial. So, it’s a really difficult problem to deal with.

[punchy]

It’s hard to say, without seeing it. He sounds pretty green though - he may just be getting scared when he jumps, which is not unusual. He sounds like he needs more canter work - do you just stop him after he does this, or do you ride him through it? He should be ridden through it and allowed to canter. Work on extended canters, collected canters, circles, etc. … it sounds like you’re doing a lot of trot work. What’s wrong with his canter transition without trotting over an x? He should have a good transition, balance and control before he starts jumping. My reaction is that you’ve got to warm him up and get him worked on the flat -w,t,c - before you can expect to start making real progress over fences. And get him woke up; sometimes they are just lazy warming up, and you think you’ve accomplished some training feat, but really they’re just half asleep and you haven’t gotten them into gear. Their gear can be challenging, though, and sometimes scary, which is why its comfortable to keep them in a lazy sort of warm up, but you’ve got to make sure you two are working, not just faking it, if that makes sense…because the fake will be exposed when you do more challenging things, like jumping.

[Montanas_Girl]

Is it possible that the problems started off with him just being fresh ('tis the season, after all), and the wild leap over the ground poles caused the KS area to pinch/sting him badly enough to set off the bolt? I’d definitely talk with the vet who diagnosed the KS and re-evaluate the saddle fit, either way.

[IPEsq]

Client’s advanced beginner friendly TB started doing this. Also did it with me and also did it with a dressage trainer. Was kind of out of the blue. Like I could do a warmup, walk a lap then as I was thinking about going back to work, bolt. Other times, he did seem to fixate on something “scary”, but the scary thing would be something that typically didn’t bother him one bit. Ulcers, saddle and other issues were chased as he then did come up on again off again lame after this behavior started. Was diagnosed with cervical arthritis, started showing neurological signs and was retired.

I definitely think something spinal could be going on whether the KS or elsewhere. Ulcers I wouldn’t rule out until he scopes clean either and I’d adjust the training accoridinfly. My horse also has cervical arthritis which for the time being is well managed. His go to behavior is the opposite - balking, and balking that turns into bucking.

But they aren’t all the same. The other horse was so much more willing to please than mine is. You could also get him back from the bolt fairly easy, but he was well trained and a bit older at this point. But even so there were days you just had to put him away because it seemed anything and everything would set him off, and that was 100% not like him.

Given that you also have issues with the canter generally, that to me says spine. Saddle fit could be contributing to the problem as well as ulcers. The spine has to move a lot more in canter than in trot.

[Gumby80]

Tricky, and scary! I’m glad you weren’t hurt.

Horses with KS don’t necessarily palpate sore. But mild KS is common, and some horses don’t seem to be as bothered about it. How does he look transitioning from trot to canter to trot on the lunge? If everything is worse when you add a rider, that’s a clue. Many vets recommend regular lunging in a Pessoa for horses with KS. As long as his neck check out ok, you could try that for a while. Focus on slowly building up his back muscles, then go back to more work under saddle in a month or so, see if he’s better or worse?

The fact that he was already running away a bit before bolting suggests he was trying get away from something that was bothering him. Which makes me think physical pain. Another thing to check would be teeth, by a good dentist. Have definitely had horses show extreme behavior due to injury or pain in their mouth, which in many cases was missed by a cursory feel around in there.

Ulcers are a b#@%*. Any chance that there’s some hindgut ulcers in there? I think those are treated differently (Misoprostole? I don’t remember offhand). Being off his food does suggest ulcers to me, but general sharkiness in the cross ties can mean anticipation of pain from being ridden from any source, not just ulcers.

I hope you can get to the bottom of it, it sounds heartbreaking. Above all, keep yourself safe!

[WildLittleWren]

My vote is for KS and/or saddle fit. But definitely sounds like a pain reaction. Good luck!