Good Western Pleasure article

[Flash44]

[QUOTE=propspony;8041311]
This came across my Facebook feed today. Great illustrations as well. Although I’m sure this article will be attacked too. Sigh. Why can’t people go after the skeletons in their own disciplines’ closets before going after others? It really is becoming tiresome.

http://horseandrider.com/article/western-pleasure-correct-25716[/QUOTE]

Thanks for posting this link! I get the physical magazine and recycled that month, and I’m happy to be able to read this again. Very well done article.

[Flash44]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8041709]
I think that in wp, as in any other we have competitions and competitors, they make it look so easy, “anyone can do it and do it well enough to win”.

If and when some of those doing the talking do try it, it doesn’t seem quite as easy once it is your going around and around and consistently doing what is being judged.

I was thinking the same about reining, heck, I am a trainer myself and of other more challenging than running around in circles, how hard can that be?

Well, let me tell you, the more I learned, the less I knew and am still now just trying to learn more.

Lets just try to keep that in mind when looking down, from our mighty heights, at what others do.
Horses have a way to humble and demand honesty of us.
It is some of what I like about horses.[/QUOTE]

Well said, Bluey.

[Silk]

[QUOTE=aktill;8041763]
“if I saw my own horse moving like that in the pasture, I’d call the vet”.[/QUOTE]

pretty much.

[Bluey]

I tell you a story, this friend was looking for a very gentle, beginner horse for a kid that was very shy.
I saw this one small yellow paint mare advertised, there was a video in the ad, I forwarded it to the friend, that emailed me back with “there is something wrong with that horse, it seems crippled, it moves funny”.

Sure enough, it did, I didn’t realize my friend had never seen a gaited horse and that one did some kind of running/walk/pace between walk and trot, that you could hold and was super smooth.
That was mentioned in the ad, but went right over my friend’s head, because she had no idea of gaited horses.

Yes, if we see a horse move in a different way than we have learned horses should move, then we may just think “something is wrong”.

My reaction the first time I saw five gaited saddlebreds, warming up, ready to enter Madison Square Garden for the National was, “what is THAT!”

I honestly was not sure those were real horses.

My point, each one of us has their opinions, as we should, but that doesn’t mean we should keep trying to insult others with different opinions, telling them again and again what we think of their hair, clothes, accent or kind of horse they like.

Then, if some get their pleasure doing that …

[aktill]

Let me tell you a story.

Some of us are aware of the basic biomechanics of equine movement, yet we still reject WP as being damaging and pathological. Not because we’re ignorant, but because the mythical happy WP video has yet to arise (never seen it in person, that’s for sure).

Some of us have even owned gaited horses…indeed, that might be why the comparison to big lick walking horses comes up frequently.

I’ll confess your story is a bit more entertaining.

[MyssMyst]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8045039]

Yes, if we see a horse move in a different way than we have learned horses should move, then we may just think “something is wrong”.

My reaction the first time I saw five gaited saddlebreds, warming up, ready to enter Madison Square Garden for the National was, “what is THAT!”

I honestly was not sure those were real horses.

My point, each one of us has their opinions, as we should, but that doesn’t mean we should keep trying to insult others with different opinions, telling them again and again what we think of their hair, clothes, accent or kind of horse they like.

Then, if some get their pleasure doing that …[/QUOTE]

Heehee, I had the same reaction the first time I saw a MFT. I was SURE that horse was lame! Fortunately, a friend clued me in before I made an idiot of myself. And I get a lot of weird comments on the saddleseat horses from people who aren’t familiar with it.

My basic take is this… Whatever makes you happy, as long as you are putting the horse’s well-being first. AQHA WP isn’t my thing, but I can’t deny some of these horses move that way naturally. Some Wellington hunters are naturally quiet and will just lope around the course. I don’t know the percentages, but if the real thing didn’t exist in some form, there would be nothing for people to use harsher methods to emulate.

[Flash44]

This horse is happy. He was born in 1995, and still winning at the top level in 2011.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpU8S7ZfWAE

Harley is the all time leading point earning horse in AQHA, the all time leader in Incentive Fund earnings with well over $100,000 and has won 17 World Championships.

But what do I know.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Flash44;8045629]
This horse is happy. He was born in 1995, and still winning at the top level in 2011.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpU8S7ZfWAE

Harley is the all time leading point earning horse in AQHA, the all time leader in Incentive Fund earnings with well over $100,000 and has won 17 World Championships.

But what do I know.[/QUOTE]

I think one reason some object to some arena classes is because all they see is the slow speed, when they are used and think horses should move on as the only “right” way, forget the technical parts, that they many times are not even aware of.

I have a friend that was watching some reining training and told me, that is just too slow and boring for me.

Guess what, she is a barrel racer, you know, those people that ride bouncing all over, a foot above the saddle at times, legs and arms a-flapping and, yes, fast, for time.
Then, it works for them, they are the ones training and competing and what you know, making big money at it some, or like her, winning her share on the weekends to keep on running.

Each one of us have maybe completely different wants and goals and that should be ok.
We should not demand others play their games by what we want, what an idea.

My point here, different strokes …

P.S. For those that may want to ride without a bridle, remember always that you train with one and exhibition without one rarely.
Bridleless, horses tend to lose their fine tuning in a hurry and end up just cruising along, performance degrades.

We used to have roping and cutting bridleless competitions here and there, but those were on extremely well trained horses and not very often.

Now, we ride for a few minutes without a bridle, even on colts, when suitable, to tell us where the horse’s mind is.
Good way to tell if he is really listening to you, or just still mechanically responding to hand cues.
Some well bred colts you can practically ride without a bridle, that means you have it on but guide with a string around the neck, after the first few rides and those are a joy to ride, so super light and attentive.

Others are more like driving an old Mack truck, “it takes an acre to turn them”, they need more training to try to become as light as the naturally light ones already were born to be.

That, how light you can really have a horse ride, that is what arena riders are looking for, what appeals to the people that train and compete with those horses, that some other we may do with horses miss.

[aktill]

Not only is that not western pleasure, the horse is moving so lethargically he’s practically digging a trench in the arena as he moves (look at how much dirt his toes are kicking up).

And Bluey, again, we don’t need you to be the forum pseudo shrink.

[NoSuchPerson]

Bluey, on this subject you are way off base. You are taking the position that there is nothing that can be called “wrong” because everything is just a matter of opinion. I refuse to accept that position, both when it comes to horses and in life in general.

When it comes to WP, a trot that is not a distinct 2-beat gait is wrong. A lope that is not a distinct 3-beat gait is wrong. A horse dragging his toes in the dirt as he moves is wrong. Wrong. Period, the end.

Whether you think reiners are “better” than barrel horses - that’s an opinion. That a lope should be a clearly distinct coordinated 3 beat gait is not an opinion, it’s a fact.

Is WP the only discipline where “wrong” is rewarded? Of course not. There are plenty of other disciplines where people are doing things wrong. Big-lick walking horses are a glowing neon Las Vegas strip of wrongness. Rollkur as it is all too frequently practiced in dressage is wrong. The current state of eventing, especially at upper levels has some wrong, which Denny Emerson has been ranting about of late.

But, none of that excuses or justifies the wrong in WP.

[Flash44]

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;8045811]
Bluey, on this subject you are way off base. You are taking the position that there is nothing that can be called “wrong” because everything is just a matter of opinion. I refuse to accept that position, both when it comes to horses and in life in general.

When it comes to WP, a trot that is not a distinct 2-beat gait is wrong. A lope that is not a distinct 3-beat gait is wrong. A horse dragging his toes in the dirt as he moves is wrong. Wrong. Period, the end.

Whether you think reiners are “better” than barrel horses - that’s an opinion. That a lope should be a clearly distinct coordinated 3 beat gait is not an opinion, it’s a fact.

Is WP the only discipline where “wrong” is rewarded? Of course not. There are plenty of other disciplines where people are doing things wrong. Big-lick walking horses are a glowing neon Las Vegas strip of wrongness. Rollkur as it is all too frequently practiced in dressage is wrong. The current state of eventing, especially at upper levels has some wrong, which Denny Emerson has been ranting about of late.

But, none of that excuses or justifies the wrong in WP.[/QUOTE]

I agree with all of what you say. However, this thread (ha ha surprise) has deteriorated from a question about good moving western horses to a bash of western pleasure. And atkill calling that horse “lethargic” is kind of funny, seeing as how accurate the pattern was performed and how smooth and correct every lead change was. That was a western riding pattern, not the western pleasure class, but wp is the basis for the rest. Here is a summary of his career

GELDING SHOW RECORD FOR HARLEY D ZIP
World Champion
Reserve World Champion
Top Ten World Show
Superior Performance
AQHA High Point Performance Horse
AQHA Supreme Performance Champion
AQHA Performance Champion
Quarter Horse Congress
NSBA money-earner
World Show Qualifier
ROM Performance
Gelding Specialties: Western Pleasure, Western Riding, Trail, Western Horsemanship

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Flash44;8046037]
I agree with all of what you say. However, this thread (ha ha surprise) has deteriorated from a question about good moving western horses to a bash of western pleasure. And atkill calling that horse “lethargic” is kind of funny, seeing as how accurate the pattern was performed and how smooth and correct every lead change was. That was a western riding pattern, not the western pleasure class, but wp is the basis for the rest. Here is a summary of his career

GELDING SHOW RECORD FOR HARLEY D ZIP
World Champion
Reserve World Champion
Top Ten World Show
Superior Performance
AQHA High Point Performance Horse
AQHA Supreme Performance Champion
AQHA Performance Champion
Quarter Horse Congress
NSBA money-earner
World Show Qualifier
ROM Performance
Gelding Specialties: Western Pleasure, Western Riding, Trail, Western Horsemanship[/QUOTE]

Right, want to see those that say wp is terrible try to ride that pattern properly.
Those horses are so well trained, you have to be just right, can’t be careless not one second all along, or the horse will tell on your sloppy/inconsistent/beginner riding.

You know, watching some gaited horses motoring at speed around the arena is alarming to me, looks very wrong for a horse to do that, but those that love it say it is a thrill to them and their horses, wild looking and with to me absurd way of going, they say, love it too.

Who am I to tell them all the ways they are wrong, according to what I think a horse should do and move … when it is not my horse and what I am doing, but THEIR horse and what they are doing?

To me, those are just as bad as some mentioned TWH, they all are just awkward, strangely moving horses that should be crippled by moving so against what I think a proper horse should move.
Then, who do you think is wrong here?

Maybe I don’t know anything about those horses?
I definitely am not going to tell them how horrible I think they are.

That horse there is an old horse and seems like he has been moving like that all his life now and is still going.
How many can say that about the horses in whatever they choose to do with their horses, whatever that may be?

[PeanutButterPony]

[I]You know, watching some gaited horses motoring at speed around the arena is alarming to me, looks very wrong for a horse to do that, but those that love it say it is a thrill to them and their horses, wild looking and with to me absurd way of going, they say, love it too.

Who am I to tell them all the ways they are wrong, according to what I think a horse should do and move … when it is not my horse and what I am doing, but THEIR horse and what they are doing?

To me, those are just as bad as some mentioned TWH, they all are just awkward, strangely moving horses that should be crippled by moving so against what I think a proper horse should move.
Then, who do you think is wrong here?

Maybe I don’t know anything about those horses?
I definitely am not going to tell them how horrible I think they are.[/I]

Bluey am I to understand that you support Big Lick TWHs?

With rampant soring and repeat offenders and the foxes guarding the hen house?

they’ve had 50 years to clean up their act but because someone somewhere says the horses enjoy it, it’s ok?

Is there any abuse of horses that you do object to?

I used to admire your steady tenacity and lifetime of experience but how in the world has that lifetime led you to shrug your shoulders and say Who Am I to Judge? Denny Emerson has a lifetime too, and he excoriates Eventing for yet ANOTHER good horse in FL dying on course- most people get firmer in their resolve to justice and seeking truth, but somehow you’ve descended into this muddled ‘it’s not my horse, so oh well’ approach. What? Why?? To blithely excuse the abuse of the TWH is to turn a very blind eye rather than see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxVlxT_x-f0

I aint’ goin’ to jail for no Jackie.

But you. Bluey, you won’t go to bat for any of them.

is cock fighting ok, then? If that’s ok with you, then maybe you can serve in the leadership at TWHBEA!

http://www.billygoboy.com/2014/10/27/celebrations-cockfighter-b-l-cozad-jr-wants-to-have-a-word-with-billy-go-boy-understand-that-every-animal-crueltyanimal-welfare-law-in-america-is-unconstitutional-and-a-volation-of-human-ri/

Animals are just property, and God gave us dominion over them, right?

Rack 'em up, drug 'em up, do those tails, and hobble those hocks! We got us a SHOW HORSE, boys!!

Who are you to say anything, huh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InSNIMFeFxQ

Sounds like the prelude to a nightmare of abuse and silent assent.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=PeanutButterPony;8046502]
[I]You know, watching some gaited horses motoring at speed around the arena is alarming to me, looks very wrong for a horse to do that, but those that love it say it is a thrill to them and their horses, wild looking and with to me absurd way of going, they say, love it too.

Who am I to tell them all the ways they are wrong, according to what I think a horse should do and move … when it is not my horse and what I am doing, but THEIR horse and what they are doing?

To me, those are just as bad as some mentioned TWH, they all are just awkward, strangely moving horses that should be crippled by moving so against what I think a proper horse should move.
Then, who do you think is wrong here?

Maybe I don’t know anything about those horses?
I definitely am not going to tell them how horrible I think they are.[/I]

Bluey am I to understand that you support Big Lick TWHs?

With rampant soring and repeat offenders and the foxes guarding the hen house?

they’ve had 50 years to clean up their act but because someone somewhere says the horses enjoy it, it’s ok?

Is there any abuse of horses that you do object to?

I used to admire your steady tenacity and lifetime of experience but how in the world has that lifetime led you to shrug your shoulders and say Who Am I to Judge? Denny Emerson has a lifetime too, and he excoriates Eventing for yet ANOTHER good horse in FL dying on course- most people get firmer in their resolve to justice and seeking truth, but somehow you’ve descended into this muddled ‘it’s not my horse, so oh well’ approach. What? Why?? To blithely excuse the abuse of the TWH is to turn a very blind eye rather than see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxVlxT_x-f0

I aint’ goin’ to jail for no Jackie.

But you. Bluey, you won’t go to bat for any of them.

is cock fighting ok, then? If that’s ok with you, then maybe you can serve in the leadership at TWHBEA!

http://www.billygoboy.com/2014/10/27/celebrations-cockfighter-b-l-cozad-jr-wants-to-have-a-word-with-billy-go-boy-understand-that-every-animal-crueltyanimal-welfare-law-in-america-is-unconstitutional-and-a-volation-of-human-ri/

Animals are just property, and God gave us dominion over them, right?

Rack 'em up, drug 'em up, do those tails, and hobble those hocks! We got us a SHOW HORSE, boys!!

Who are you to say anything, huh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InSNIMFeFxQ

Sounds like the prelude to a nightmare of abuse and silent assent.[/QUOTE]

Again, trying to confuse abuse with proper use of horses?

You do realize there is abuse most any place you look, in families, churches, schools, police department and yes, in what we do with horses also.

No one wants abuse to happen any place, not in TWH or wp or rodeo or jumping or dressage or racing or in plain old backyard barditch horse keeping and plodding along.

It is absurd to, because someone doesn’t think that what others do is abuse just because it is different of what we do, it is abuse.

Abuse is abuse and happens where you find abusers, not because it is this or that other we do.

What is it, when people run out of reasons, then they decide to start with personal digs?
Why so defensive, maybe you do have saddlebreds and don’t understand I was saying “not my thing, but your right to do your thing, even if it is strange to very odd to me” and we are on a western, not gaited forum.

If you read for content, I was talking there about saddlebreds motoring around, had said that before, don’t know anything at all about TWH.

[PeanutButterPony]

No. Its not a personal dig.

Do you support big lick twh or not?

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=PeanutButterPony;8046560]
No. Its not a personal dig.

Do you support big lick twh or not?[/QUOTE]

Maybe if you read for context you would not have to ask?

[PeanutButterPony]

Maybe if you stopped asserting that others…all others… were not qualified to comment…I would not need to ask.perhaps you think your message is clear. It isn’t.

You sound like you are saying anything goes. Wow.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=PeanutButterPony;8046623]
Maybe if you stopped asserting that others…all others… were not qualified to comment…I would not need to ask.perhaps you think your message is clear. It isn’t.

You sound like you are saying anything goes. Wow.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the advice, I will take it under consideration.

[Flash44]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8046249]
Right, want to see those that say wp is terrible try to ride that pattern properly.
Those horses are so well trained, you have to be just right, can’t be careless not one second all along, or the horse will tell on your sloppy/inconsistent/beginner riding.

You know, watching some gaited horses motoring at speed around the arena is alarming to me, looks very wrong for a horse to do that, but those that love it say it is a thrill to them and their horses, wild looking and with to me absurd way of going, they say, love it too.

Who am I to tell them all the ways they are wrong, according to what I think a horse should do and move … when it is not my horse and what I am doing, but THEIR horse and what they are doing?

To me, those are just as bad as some mentioned TWH, they all are just awkward, strangely moving horses that should be crippled by moving so against what I think a proper horse should move.
Then, who do you think is wrong here?

Maybe I don’t know anything about those horses?
I definitely am not going to tell them how horrible I think they are.

That horse there is an old horse and seems like he has been moving like that all his life now and is still going.
How many can say that about the horses in whatever they choose to do with their horses, whatever that may be?[/QUOTE]

I agree - I trail ride with a few older ladies (seventh decade!) who have gaited horses, and those horses look awkward to me. But these ladies love the horses and swear that they wouldn’t be able to ride as long if they didn’t have gaited horses because the gaits are so smooth. And those horses really move out - I’m loping to keep up sometimes. I’m looking forward to branching out into a gaited breed in twenty years or so.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=Flash44;8046037]
And atkill calling that horse “lethargic” is kind of funny, seeing as how accurate the pattern was performed and how smooth and correct every lead change was. [/QUOTE]

The only funny thing is that lead changes seem to be so venerated in your world that you think they’re something incredible. He’s very obedient, sure, but it’s still not healthy to be dragging his toes that much even at lope (have you ever worked as a farrier on horses that do this consistently?). Yet getting out of the ground enough to NOT do that seems to be penalized for all intents and purposes…and this is YARDS more energy than WP to boot.

Your quoting his show record is yet another example of the same ol, same ol “he wins therefore he’s right” mentality.