The issue for me is the welfare of the horse. Studies have shown that the slow WP jog is actually a 4 beat gait where the forelegs stay on the ground longer that the hind legs. In all the natural 4 beat gaits, and there are many, the HIND feet are grounded longer than the forefeet, and gaited horses are known for their longevity. It is that aspect of WP that I find disturbing, the unvoidable shift to the front end and consequent lameness issues.
[QUOTE=longride1;8047549]
The issue for me is the welfare of the horse. Studies have shown that the slow WP jog is actually a 4 beat gait where the forelegs stay on the ground longer that the hind legs. In all the natural 4 beat gaits, and there are many, the HIND feet are grounded longer than the forefeet, and gaited horses are known for their longevity. It is that aspect of WP that I find disturbing, the unvoidable shift to the front end and consequent lameness issues.[/QUOTE]
Exactly! So if WP gaits are so natural, I’d ask people who claim so why horses don’t have collar bones.
Back to the original WP topic, the 2015 AQHA rule book does spell out, in detail, the new judging procedure to evaluate quality of gaits. No judge following the rulebook can now place the horses that were so objectionable (in a class of more than 5 entries). If improvement in this area is important to you, get your video cameras ready.
http://mzines.net/touch.aspx?pid=869&pkey=llfhzqycu
Pages 56-57 on the page counter.
I almost hate to add to this thread, it has gotten so vitriolic, but I cannot resist.
I am not as competent a rider to train young horses, so my QH must be at a trainer for now. I remember the first time I rode him after he had developed enough core strength to jog well. There was a strong 2 beat, not 4. The lightness felt like a ballerina. I only hope to learn to keep that lightness under all gaits.
Concerning the western riding video - it takes strength and power to be able to maintain the consistency of rhythm and balance in order to perform that many lead changes. Note the power of the halt. That gives you a clue.
It takes more power and strength to do an exercise when the horse is basically off balance. It is always difficult to do things slowly when the machine is designed to use kinetic energy to take the stress out of the movement. Making an exercise more difficult does not make it better for the overall being of the athlete if it over stresses joints and ligaments. I’m not saying that the jog as shown today isn’t difficult. I’m saying it shouldn’t be difficult. The jog is a gait that should be energy saving, minimally taxing to joints and the relaxing gait of choice. It was chosen for pleasure because it didn’t stress the horse or rider. For that to happen the horse must be balanced and carrying from behind. I’m saying that the degree of difficulty requirement in my rule book would read quite differently than that of the AQHA. Slow should not be the determining factor among equals. Instead suppleness and responsiveness. Judging good horses would be more difficult but if 6 are equal 6 are equal. Heresy, I know.
[QUOTE=potteryshop;8047703]
I almost hate to add to this thread, it has gotten so vitriolic, but I cannot resist.
I am not as competent a rider to train young horses, so my QH must be at a trainer for now. I remember the first time I rode him after he had developed enough core strength to jog well. There was a strong 2 beat, not 4. The lightness felt like a ballerina. I only hope to learn to keep that lightness under all gaits.
Concerning the western riding video - it takes strength and power to be able to maintain the consistency of rhythm and balance in order to perform that many lead changes. Note the power of the halt. That gives you a clue.[/QUOTE]
Yes I agree, you really need to ride it to feel it and understand it. Well said.
Moving on…a 4 beat “jog” is not a jog and is not correct. Not sure why anyone would allow a horse to move like that, I certainly don’t and no one I ride with does. And the quality of the gait is the most important factor in judging, not the speed.
Of course it’s not correct by definition, but put the horses on a pressure pad and that’s what they are doing. Point is that they are forced to spend more time on the front end.
[QUOTE=potteryshop;8047703]
I almost hate to add to this thread, it has gotten so vitriolic, but I cannot resist.
I am not as competent a rider to train young horses, so my QH must be at a trainer for now. I remember the first time I rode him after he had developed enough core strength to jog well. There was a strong 2 beat, not 4. The lightness felt like a ballerina. I only hope to learn to keep that lightness under all gaits.
.[/QUOTE]
Agreed! This first time I rode a correct HUS trot, I felt like I was flying. It was amazing.
Here is yet another article. I do think things are looking up. Time will tell how far this initiative goes, but… money talks, and WP is a money maker, so if enough people start walking, which is happening, well… changes will be made.
If this link doesn’t work, the article starts on page 10.
The intro to the article announces that modern western pleasure has been “perfected” (obviously representing the views of their readership), yet the article seems to go into a lot of detail on how much of it is broken. Pretty much the same thing we do here, in a nutshell.
I’d still love someone to actually explain the desire for the holy grail of a level topline. Why the emphasis?
I think what it’s saying is, that through breeding we’ve perfected the horse we need to excel in the discipline, then we ruin it through the mockery that western pleasure had become. At least that’s how I read it.
[QUOTE=propspony;8052668]
I think what it’s saying is, that through breeding we’ve perfected the horse we need to excel in the discipline, then we ruin it through the mockery that western pleasure had become. At least that’s how I read it.[/QUOTE]
That was my interpretation, too.
That’s a nice article. Thanks for the link.
“Western Pleasure has evolved from a class to showcase working horses’ ability to ride comfortably an obediently on the rail to a specialized event that has been perfected over the recent years with extraordinary breeding and record-setting purse money”.
It’s the event that’s been perfected folks.
[QUOTE=aktill;8052885]
“Western Pleasure has evolved from a class to showcase working horses’ ability to ride comfortably an obediently on the rail to a specialized event that has been perfected over the recent years with extraordinary breeding and record-setting purse money”.
It’s the event that’s been perfected folks.[/QUOTE]
Well oookay, then. Thanks for telling me I’m stupid and lack reading comprehension.
I’ve been watching this thread with interest, since I’ve been employed to retrain WP horses into dressage horses at times, and it helps me to understand “where they come from”.
Regarding the “perfection of WP”:
I also read it as indicating that the event - not the riding style - has been perfected.
I didn’t see any personal attack or demeaning implication here…just a difference of interpretation. The defensiveness is more telling than the original statement.
[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;8053582]
Well oookay, then. Thanks for telling me I’m stupid and lack reading comprehension.[/QUOTE]
Oh come on…
[QUOTE=arlosmine;8053660]
I’ve been watching this thread with interest, since I’ve been employed to retrain WP horses into dressage horses at times, and it helps me to understand “where they come from”.
Regarding the “perfection of WP”:
I also read it as indicating that the event - not the riding style - has been perfected.
I didn’t see any personal attack or demeaning implication here…just a difference of interpretation. The defensiveness is more telling than the original statement.[/QUOTE]
Nice post. Perfect is difficult…wp is very specialized, and the horses that have been bred to specialize in wp are such fabulous movers and the best ones make it look easy. Unfortunately some (not all) wp people sacrifice quality of gait in order to get the horse to go slower, as they think that pace is more important than quality. When the entire class is sacrificing gait for pace, well then someone needs to win and that person then thinks they are doing something right. I don’t sacrifice quality of gait for pace, and train for correct gaits. And my horse will go slow and still be correct. And sound and happy. It’s an absolutely amazing ride.
Another article
http://horseandrider.com/article/western-pleasure-correct-25716
I notice they sure have to explain themselves a lot.
The “correct” and “incorrect” photos are the same horse and rider.
All they did is put the horse’s head behind the verticle with a curled neck.
What I see is that the horses are trained more along the lines of the incorrect, then when they are shown, or when the ammy gets on, they let the heads alone.
I also see them trained severely canted in. Same thing, then when the show them, they let them straighten more. But watching the training of these horses is really disturbing to me. I see dozens of them in a big training barn full of them every day, being ridden and trained, and bitted up every which way to Sunday. Every single horse I see, and there are close to thirty of them, are trained in what is basically a western rolkur position.
It gets a little better when they do the trail and the western riding, because the horses are ridden with more of a purpose. The trail horses look way better to me.
[QUOTE=Wirt;8055907]
It gets a little better when they do the trail and the western riding, because the horses are ridden with more of a purpose. The trail horses look way better to me.[/QUOTE]
Which is why the Trail and Western Riding entries in AQHA shows out-number the WP entries by quite a lot. If you wonder why there is a renewed buzz in AQHA about fixing WP, with new gait judging standards put into the rulebook, consider that last year there were 36,000 entries in Ranch Pleasure classes (according to my Ranch Pleasure HOTY owner friend). AQHA, and now BNT WP guys, are trying to fix the barn doors after the horses have fled.
Not only AQHA and BNT WP guys, but show managers counted on those 25+ horse class entries, run within 10 minutes, for profit to offset the individual work classes that take up so much more time.
[QUOTE=Plumcreek;8056406]
Which is why the Trail and Western Riding entries in AQHA shows out-number the WP entries by quite a lot. If you wonder why there is a renewed buzz in AQHA about fixing WP, with new gait judging standards put into the rulebook, consider that last year there were 36,000 entries in Ranch Pleasure classes (according to my Ranch Pleasure HOTY owner friend). AQHA, and now BNT WP guys, are trying to fix the barn doors after the horses have fled.
Not only AQHA and BNT WP guys, but show managers counted on those 25+ horse class entries, run within 10 minutes, for profit to offset the individual work classes that take up so much more time.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know, just from watching some of that over the years, I would say, maybe we ought to consider which is the dog, which the tail there?
It used to be that wp is where the heavy action and big prices were.
Those that didn’t make that tough specialty, from the many that tried it, were then used in the rest of the classes.
Somewhat like reining and cutting horses that didn’t make it there went to try as working cowhorse, ranch and such similar events?
Maybe that is now changing?
There are hard core events depending on tremendous talent for their events, very competitive, like reining and cutting and wp and racing and such.
Then there are other events that are more for all arounders, not bred so specialized on one salient talent.
Many of our racing TB’s, if they didn’t cut it running, they were made into hunter/jumpers, before all the warmblood imports hit.
One constant tends to be that change generally happens and we are watching as it is happening now.
This is what Western Pleasure looked like in the seventies.
Some used to call it a California head set.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/1779805_744286782320511_7022189206739919701_n.jpg?oh=8742e2667534f61e0ef109886c263172&oe=55B80D67&gda=1435097911_000f7516e40204bda40963068372d67f
