Good Western Pleasure article

[jvanrens]

[QUOTE=Wirt;8055907]
Another article

http://horseandrider.com/article/western-pleasure-correct-25716

I notice they sure have to explain themselves a lot.

The “correct” and “incorrect” photos are the same horse and rider.
All they did is put the horse’s head behind the verticle with a curled neck.[/QUOTE]

Seriously? Is that all you see in the difference between the two pictures? I see a huge difference in the quality of the gaits between the two pictures besides where the horse is carrying his head. Perhaps you should go back and read the explanations in the article again.

[longride1]

Depends upon your eye. The horse is 4 beating in both pictures; note the front foot about to leave the ground before diagonal hind touches down in the “correct” picture This gait irregularity shows clearly a horse heavy on the forehand. Nose behind the vertical, etc are symptoms. The disease is still sinking the weight into the front legs. No amount of arcing the back can correct that. Instead that “lifted” back creates tension and stress in the lumbar area, which shortens the stride, and so on. To raise the back in a way that benefits the horse the neck must come up too and oops - that would look like the “California” horse that AQHA did it’s best to bury in the 60 - 70s.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Wirt;8055907]

http://horseandrider.com/article/western-pleasure-correct-25716[/QUOTE]

There are some problems with the pictures in that article.

The first picture-- not a before/after shot-- shows none of the suspension usually found in that phase of the trot. Rather, the front leg that should be reaching to the ground is already there and bearing weight. In other words, the horse is being asked to stop all the time in his front end, perhaps with his hind legs driven up into it anyway… while his head is very low.

Check it out: The horse is bearing weight on the LH and RF diagonal pair at this point in the stride. That means his RH is bent-- as you see it-- reaching forward and he’s about to slide his hoof onto the ground. But lo! The LF is already planted and bearing weight! How can that possibly happen in a two-beat gait unless it has been “manufactured.”

Another really obvious sign of a screwed up gait comes in the “before” picture of the lope. Note the reversed positions of the hind legs at the same phase of the stride. That, my friends, is what it looks like to trot behind and canter in front.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=longride1;8057711]
Depends upon your eye. The horse is 4 beating in both pictures; note the front foot about to leave the ground before diagonal hind touches down in the “correct” picture This gait irregularity shows clearly a horse heavy on the forehand. Nose behind the vertical, etc are symptoms. The disease is still sinking the weight into the front legs. No amount of arcing the back can correct that. Instead that “lifted” back creates tension and stress in the lumbar area, which shortens the stride, and so on. To raise the back in a way that benefits the horse the neck must come up too and oops - that would look like the “California” horse that AQHA did it’s best to bury in the 60 - 70s.[/QUOTE]

So much of that"California" look were stiff, resistant, hollow back, U-necked horses with their heads tucked in by the strong bits and hands.

The reason the AQHA was trying to get away was because they were preferring the more soft and supple horses for those rail classes.
Today that search for lightness is light years away from even those of long ago, better breeding for that and training and conditioning and showing, horses working with drapey reins and off other aids when showing.

You can see that old stiff style in the old picture, practically every horse there is like that.

Some may not like what we have today, especially when taken to extremes, but for those that make those decisions, it beat stiff and hollow, why they went there.

[aktill]

The old WP riders in those photos are riding just as stiff as modern ones. It’s still a WP look, and you’d never mistake that for anything other than a WP class.

The head may be lower now, but they’re not moving through the body any better (judging from photos alone)

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8058447]
So much of that"California" look were stiff, resistant, hollow back, U-necked horses with their heads tucked in by the strong bits and hands.

The reason the AQHA was trying to get away was because they were preferring the more soft and supple horses for those rail classes.
Today that search for lightness is light years away from even those of long ago, better breeding for that and training and conditioning and showing, horses working with drapey reins and off other aids when showing.

You can see that old stiff style in the old picture, practically every horse there is like that.

Some may not like what we have today, especially when taken to extremes, but for those that make those decisions, it beat stiff and hollow, why they went there.[/QUOTE]

Bull hockey.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/1779805_744286782320511_7022189206739919701_n.jpg?oh=8742e2667534f61e0ef109886c263172&oe=55B80D67&gda=1437689911_82a99d4a3749f8afff74fc57c6887fe1

This horse is not hollow or uneck. That is where a bridle horse neck and head should be. And that is a horse that could probably do a lot of other things as well.

[Plumcreek]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8058447]
So much of that"California" look were stiff, resistant, hollow back, U-necked horses with their heads tucked in by the strong bits and hands.
.[/QUOTE]

Now this is wrong.

I showed WP in Calif from 1966 to 1972, at the QH shows (mostly Diamond Bar) and the big open shows at Santa Barbara, before moving to Colorado. We kept the horses between the bit and our legs, pushed them up into the bit, nose out slightly, eye ~ level with the withers, and then backed off the bit to some slack in the rein. Put legs on and rocked the bit in their mouth with my little finger when they lost self carriage (didn’t call it that back then) and a fix was needed. They felt like Silk, and actually Cynthia Cantleberry and Silk Sails were the ones I tried to emulate. I started out as a Dressage Kid, and the WP of that era did not conflict with what I had been taught. Don’t mess with the old California pleasure horses.

[arlosmine]

I quite like the look of the bay horse in the “California WP” photo. That horse does not look stiff to me. It looks relaxed, non-robotic, and uphill. I’m afraid I much prefer it to the modern WP horses, who make me very nervous to ride since it feels like the saddle is going to slide off their withers and down the neck.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Wirt;8058484]
Bull hockey.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/1779805_744286782320511_7022189206739919701_n.jpg?oh=8742e2667534f61e0ef109886c263172&oe=55B80D67&gda=1437689911_82a99d4a3749f8afff74fc57c6887fe1

This horse is not hollow or uneck. That is where a bridle horse neck and head should be. And that is a horse that could probably do a lot of other things as well.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Plumcreek;8058915]Now this is wrong.

I showed WP in Calif from 1966 to 1972, at the QH shows (mostly Diamond Bar) and the big open shows at Santa Barbara, before moving to Colorado. We kept the horses between the bit and our legs, pushed them up into the bit, nose out slightly, eye ~ level with the withers, and then backed off the bit to some slack in the rein. Put legs on and rocked the bit in their mouth with my little finger when they lost self carriage (didn’t call it that back then) and a fix was needed. They felt like Silk, and actually Cynthia Cantleberry and Silk Sails were the ones I tried to emulate. I started out as a Dressage Kid, and the WP of that era did not conflict with what I had been taught. Don’t mess with the old California pleasure horses.[/QUOTE]

Look, no matter what we do, in general, everyone you can talk to that was around and into horses half a century ago as a professional will tell you the knowledge and general way horses were trained and competed with was by far not what it is today.

In general, today’s horse world is considerably better all around, warts and all of extremes out there.

You can’t even start to compare what passed as dressage or any western riding decades ago with what we have today.
That is as it should be, the information age brings us that.
We know more and more and that information is out there for all to access, unlike before, when it was more regional, especially in the horse world.

I am pointing out that we really can’t compare what we know today, the horses and training and concepts guiding those today, with what I saw then in the horse world of that time and what those that were competing in the West then told me.

That is just my opinion, with what I know.

[Plumcreek]

OK Bluey, you have good points, but “stiff, resistant, hollow back, U-necked horses with their heads tucked in by the strong bits and hands” is quite different from “by far not what it is today.” The horse breeding I remember from those days in the late 60s and 70s on the Left Coast were mostly Three Bars sons; Rocket Bar, Jioggy Bar, and Top[ Deck horses. Doc Bar stood as a halter and performance horse sire before he was known as a cutting sire. We showed those horses fresh, bridled to collect, not ridden all night to slow down, and, as you say, they were far from the flat kneeed, strong loin and deeply tied down hip muscling horses you see today in the western rail and performance classes. However, I do remember Cabin Bar Rita in Western Riding and you could not tell when she changed leads, she just was on a different lead than you noticed a second ago. She and some others would stand up today. If anyone remembers Sheza Ready, that was my homebred.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Plumcreek;8060456]
OK Bluey, you have good points, but “stiff, resistant, hollow back, U-necked horses with their heads tucked in by the strong bits and hands” is quite different from “by far not what it is today.” The horse breeding I remember from those days in the late 60s and 70s on the Left Coast were mostly Three Bars sons; Rocket Bar, Jioggy Bar, and Top[ Deck horses. Doc Bar stood as a halter and performance horse sire before he was known as a cutting sire. We showed those horses fresh, bridled to collect, not ridden all night to slow down, and, as you say, they were far from the flat kneeed, strong loin and deeply tied down hip muscling horses you see today in the western rail and performance classes. However, I do remember Cabin Bar Rita in Western Riding and you could not tell when she changed leads, she just was on a different lead than you noticed a second ago. She and some others would stand up today. If anyone remembers Sheza Ready, that was my homebred.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I don’t express myself quite right, you are right there.

While there have always been exceptional horses with great training, I would say, decades ago, those were truly the exception.
Today, even some of those would have considerably more competition.
That is what I am trying to point out.

By the way, we did start plenty of Wiggy Bar colts for the track, sure some nice ones.
Also had for a while Sleepy Bar, that came from California, this one of his colts as a yearling:

[rtph]

if she’s a reining horse and is doing the maneuvers properly, she can’t be as bad as the WP horses being referred to here. She’s just slow, and you’re fortunate.

[LoneStarQH]

Thanks for posting about this interesting article!