Anyone know how are the Grafenstolz offspring doing in sport? Looks like he was bred to some remarkably good mares - are the babies living up to expectations?
I want to breed him to my mare this spring, and I am wondering the same thing…I know his oldest offpring are 8ish, and have competed throught the 2*
I haven’t been able to find too many results but there are a fair number of his offspring on Youtube to give you an idea of what they’re like.
We have a Grafenstolz foal due in April/May of this year; Elizabeth Callahan (who also posts here) got an exceptional 2011 colt from him.
I don’t know the whole story, but from what I can tell, Graf was in Germany until the late 2000s, when he was moved to the U.K. Once there, British breeders started using him pretty heavily – most of those foals will be less than 3 years of age, however.
His first foals were born in 2002. Allbreedpedigree.com lists 8 offspring from 2002 – I don’t know if that is a complete list.
At least two of those 2002 foals, Gin-Tonic and Vincent, have their FEI cards. Gin-Tonic has competed at the 2* level, and Vincent TSF has competed at the 3* level. Both are out of Trakehner mares.
Here are Gin-Tonic’s FEI results, which are somewhat uneven:
Vincent TSF, on the other hand, has been ridden by Michael Jung up to the CIC 3* level (placing 5th of 32 entries at the Weisbaden CIC 3* in June 2011), with several quality placings and/or wins at the 2* and 1* level.
Here is his FEI results card:
Video of Vincent winning the Stuttgart indoor eventing derby in 2010:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzECBEnHbRM
There may be more competing at the FEI level, but I’ve not identified them. I don’t think the FEI web-page is searchable by sire.
His offspring that have been registered with the Sport Horse Breeding of Great Britain registry start primarily in 2009 and are listed here:
http://www.sporthorsegb.co.uk/members/Horses.asp?ID=153138
What is notable about this listing is the number of Welton mares on which he’s been used. The Welton Stud is pretty much British event-breeding royalty. Similarly, it is my understanding that he has been used as a sire (by ET) for Headley Brittania, King’s Temptress, and Fachoudette – all top 4* mares. Mary King mentioned him in her talk in the U.S. recently.
Other than his obvious sporthorse attributes, we used him mainly due to the fact that some of the top event riders/breeders in the U.K. are using him on a regular basis.
Hope this helps.
Do not believe all the figures for this stallion. The owner is a salesman who inflates the figures - a lot!
Many of the coverings to good mares have been freebies to encourage the use of him. Do not forget that the mare brings most into the equation as she usually gets to rear the foal as well.
I have also seen this stallion several times since he came to England and the one thing that really impressed me was his lack of good behaviour. Every time I have seen him he has been standing on his hind legs and napping for his rider. At one stallion parade I went to he was the only stallion that needed two people as well as his rider to get him from the box park into the collecting ring. After a lot of warming up and playing up he went into the main arena and did a very good display.
Yes he has a good jump and with a tactfull rider can produce a good trot, in fact he loves his big trot so much that his other paces dont get a look in.
Temperament apart he needs to be used on a good mare to get decent professional ride offspring.
Honestly Daisy…Stallion owners giving freebie breeding to proven mares is VERY typical. It is done ALL of the time. Given the risks in breeding…and costs/time…I doubt many would still take the “free” breeding unless they thought it was a good cross. I know that I haven’t when offered free breeding. The stud fee is the small expense–and least consideration!
As for “bad behavior”…I personally don’t care. He is a stallion. The minds of his offspring (out of good mares) is what is important.
What I care about is his pedigree, his performance and what his offspring look like (what traits he passes on).
I’ve known puppy dog stallions that didn’t produce an athlete.
Graf has done well competing in three different disciplines…while still a stallion. He seems to be throwing a consistent type. And of the offspring that I’ve seen…they all have had incredibly nice canters for youngsters and fancy enough trots for what I want in an event horse. His older offspring seem to have his good jump as well…and are doing well.
He may not be your cup of tea…but to me how a stallion behaves in a stallion show is NOT on my list at all for evaluating them.
Sorry but I feel this boy is not producing the goods. IF he has covered as many mares as claimed in Germany then there should be more than just a few that have proven competition records. Graf himself had a big query on his soundness that was aired ad infinitum on various forums when he was first promoted in Britain.
If he has covered the '000s of mares claimed since coming to this country then where are the ofspring registered, they do not come up on NED. The only reason so many did turn up to the Futurities was becuse they were paid to do so. Even then other stallions which did not pay for stock to appear did better than him.
Forgot to add, I have been offered free breedings to first season stallions (thoroughbreds standing at the national stud) but that has purely been genuine first season horses to get the numbers through for the race track. Having to do this for “proven” stallions must say something about the lack of quality mares he would recieve otherwise.
This is not a young stallion waiting for his first crop to come through but a stallion which has failed in Europe as a sire but is still being promoted on his own 5 year old acheivements which he has never lived up to further down the line.
I too like a stallion which produces the goods and to my mind this one fails to.
Most recently (October 2011) Grafenstolz took second place in the Express Eventing final at HOYS, ridden by Alex Hua Tian.
Grafenstolz’s perceived problems stem from his owner who inspires extreme reactions (good and bad) from many people.
I would have to agree with daisydonk that this horse has been aggressively marketed; whilst free coverings at the start of a horses career might be the norm to get foals on the ground and to excite interest, this is rather more than that and ordinary mare owners have been quite deliberately led to believe that top studs have fought to snap up these expensive coverings, paying in full. This sort of thing may happen in Europe and maybe even in the US - you are more sales savvy than us, I think - but it creates a false impression for anyone looking at the British statistics and I think Peregrine Farm’s post illustrates this.
Welton blood is the old fashioned stuff over here; its good stuff - and its everywhere! You would expect to find it all the time in specialist event pedigrees. I wouldn’t say its the royalty; more like the old nobility… No huge significance in Graf covering Welton mares; it just means that he’s being aimed at eventing.
Graf’s misbehaviour at stallion shows may or may not be significant. But it isn’t “because he’s a stallion”. Its because he’s Graf. The other stallions at these venues had no problem dealing with the situation. This sort of behaviour is said to have marred his early ridden career and to have diminished his popularity on the Continent, though he made good under a first class rider.
Personally I think if you are going to use him he will do best on a heavy mare, who can add a bit of depth and substance. The British Equestrian Federation Futurity liked his offspring from a Shire cross Cleveland Bay/Thoroughbred last year; she was a nice mare in her own right and her sire was himself a very good eventer.
Basically, go and search not just for foals but for adult offspring and make your decision based on these. Don’t believe the hype and don’t believe the covering figures. No one has ever been able to substantiate the figures put out for this horse since he came to Britain.
I think there will be quite a lot about GinTonic on the net, including video; Graf’s most successful offspring so far, I think.
Molly Malone is right re. Graf’s owner. Up to a point… I personally feel there really are far better sires out there than Graf but it is the aggressive and often downright deceitful marketing that makes me feel the need to say it!
I don’t feel personally that the contest in which Graf came second has that much significance in terms of actual eventing. I saw some of that on video and the whole cross country thing seems to sort of vanish into a form of show jumping… But that is a whole different discussion.
For USA breeeders it looks like Titulus may be a good option for eventing --from a first very small crop in Germany he hit it out of the ball park it seems. 
It also looks like he is being professionally managed by an experienced stallion owner which is always a plus for mare owners.
I guess I somewhat disagree with your point. There are a LOT of good stallions out there…whether they are the right fit for you mare is a different story. Graf would NOT be the right stallion for every mare…and I would say…if you are breeding for an UL eventer, I wouldn’t be crossing him on a heavier mare. I would be crossing him only on a full TB or almost full TB.
He is not what I would pick to reliably produce an ammy ride (at least not yet)…but to say he is a failure when his oldest crops are 8/9 year olds is a bit much. There are rarely any event sires that have a lot of get competing at the high levels. And most of them only become proven event horse sires when they themselves are old or dead.
Go look at the top event stallions who have more than one get at the international levels. Tell me how many with mulitple top get are not dead…or near 20? The list is short. It is the nature of that sport and the difficulty of producing a horse to those levels (they need to be in the right hands). But his pedigree is not unknown, and he does have enough good looking offspring on the ground to make some evaluations.
Honestly…I think he would do better over here in the USA where our mare base is probably more suited to him as an event horse sire. But unfortuntately…the market for young event horses in the USA is not very large or profitable.
I agree that the stallion owner can rub people the wrong way.
Mary King commented (positively) @ Area VIII breeding discussion.
[QUOTE=Molly Malone;6085549]
Grafenstolz’s perceived problems stem from his owner who inspires extreme reactions (good and bad) from many people.[/QUOTE]
This made me laugh.
When did Grafenstolz’s owner ever inspire a good reaction from anyone?
:lol:
I was looking for an eventing stallion last year. I love Trakehners but I didn’t look at Graf. Partly it was because, like many UK breeders, I dislike the way his owner conducts himself. Partly it was because there are too many veterinary question marks hanging over him for me to consider using him.
I used a stallion who was European team gold medallist, advanced eventer, still sound and competing at 22 years young and the sire of a 4**** event horse who went double clear round Badminton at his first attempt.
Luckily…you don’t have to deal with him when you breed with frozen in the USA. I got my doses from the same Agent that I’ve dealt with many times before. Same with Jaguar Mail…you now just deal with Hilltop Farm in the USA.
Stolen…Graf is still competiting. Just not eventing. Not sure I would risk a stallion in eventing if I owned one. Yes I know he got hurt at one point…as have just about every Advanced horse out there (and most UL anything horses).
Bottom line…he is a nice stallion. There are a lot of nice stallions out there. You have to pick one that suits your mare. He suits one of mine (not the other two) so I’m willing to see what the cross produces.
I’ve sent you a PM.
I pretty much agree with BFNE.
Of course, both of us (I believe) have Graf babies coming this year.
Before choosing to use this stallion, we read much of the negative press regarding the stallion owner and some of the claims made by him – here, on the H&H forums, and wherever else we could find it; point being that we went in with eyes open regarding the reliability of some of the claims. And frankly, claims about the # of times he has bred means nothing to me – claims about hundreds of youngsters will ultimately be counterproductive if sufficient numbers do not succeed in sport – once they are old enough to do so.
My suspicion is that much of the negativity surrounding the stallion comes from that source, and not Grafenstolz himself. If there are concrete negatives, however, I want to know what they are so that I can make better decisions about the stallion in the future (in addition to having one of his offspring).
I am NOT being facaetious or snarky in asking the questions below. What I do want to know is whether the opinions earlier expressed are based upon fact, rather than rumor or general impressions of an anonymous poster. If they are based in fact, then everyone has something else to consider when deciding whether to use this stallion.
Here is what I know or believe to be true based upon what is publicly available:
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Graf has 2 sons from his initial 2002 crop competing at the FEI level. They were 9 years old last year. I expect the 2002 crop is rather small, given that the stallion would have been 3 at the time these foals were conceived.
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Gin-Tonic has reached the FEI level, but has not been a star – he appears to have trouble making time and with xc faults. I know nothing about his rider, which could make a difference. He’s a mixed bag when evaluating Graf’s success as a sire.
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Vincent has done well with Michael Jung. Again, I recognize who is riding him may make a big difference. I think it is also fair to say that the fact that Jung has stayed with the horse for a considerable period of time suggests that he likes the horse and is willing to stick with him. Making time appears to be an issue, but a minor one, at the Weisbaden 3* the horse had 2.8 time penalties, and few horses made time at that event. Vincent would have been 2nd but for two rails in SJ.
I recognize that was at a CIC competition and that does not necessarily reflect CCI 4* capability. Regardless, two FEI competitors by a then 3-year old stallion is nothing to sneeze at.
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It is difficult to locate video/info about the 2003, 2004, and 2005 foal crops. Not sure why, unless Graf was being campaigned heavily at ages 5 through 7, and had less of a book in those years. I also don’t speak German, which may have something to do with it.
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Starting with 2005 offspring, there are videos that you can look at online. Most are from Germany, although some appear to be from the U.K. The quality of horses for which there is video ranges from good to excellent. They all have a fairly typical type, are uniformly good to great movers, and appear to be training/schooling/showing at levels appropriate to their age. Almost all are well conformed and attractive horses. If I had to guess, I think I have reviewed video of at least 30 different offspring online, probably much more – there have been no standout “bad” offspring in the lot.
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Mare owners in the U.K. have used him on what appear to be quality mares with eventing backgrounds. Even if those breedings were free, I think it is fair to assume that the high-profile mare owners would not have wasted their time or potentially compromised the breeding reputation of their mares (with attendant economic consequences) with a breeding if they did not believe it would be productive. It seems a smart business decision to offer free breedings for Fachoudette, King’s Temptress or Headley Brittania (and i also note that Graf’s stud fee is not expensive in the grand scheme of things - he’s not a racehorse or even Totilas).
The idea that mare owners (at least responsible ones) don’t “waste” breedings on quality mares is even more true for mere mortals, who can’t play a numbers game and who usually expect only a limited number of foals from their mares. Even if Welton-bred mares are “everywhere” in the U.K., and should be characterized as “old nobility” rather than “royalty”, the concession that they are “good stuff” supports the notion that those mare owners will be choosy about the stallions to whom they are bred.
Sorry if I mischaracterized the Welton Stud. If Welton is “old nobility”, who, in your opinion, is currently a better breeder in the U.K.? Which stallions are they/he/she using, by comparison?
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Grafenstolz is 14 this year. It is a valid point to say that he is “unproven” when compared to a deceased stallion or one in his 20s - I get that. But, if one adheres to the view (which I concede can be debated – not the point of this thread), that one will need a better mover for FEI-level eventing in the next 10 years than horses that were typically bred by the dead and/or older stallions in the mid-1990s, then one will primarily be looking at “younger” stallions (or older stallions not traditionally pointed towards event breeding), none of which have offspring old enough to be competing at the FEI level at this point.
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His offspring have been highly rated at BEF futurities, for what that is worth. The earlier suggestion that participants with Graf foals were “paid to attend” means nothing if the ones who did attend were rated highly – unless you are suggesting that the judges were paid too, which I suspect you are not.
Again, this seems to be a criticism of the SO, not the horse. -
Graf himself has valid examples of performance at the FEI level – most notably his Le Lion performance. Some top stallions have better, equivalent, or lesser performance records, but what Graf has done is an objective data point and is largely to his credit.
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His movement and jumping ability are verifiable and a plus.
So, some specific questions for Daisydonk and Jenny Jones:
- Daisydonk stated that Graf “does not bring the goods.” What, exactly, do you mean by that, and what do you base it on? Do you have specific examples of failures? Do you have information that offspring are not competing at levels appropriate for their ages? What offspring have you seen, either in person or in video, and what don’t you like? Why? Is this just your personal gut feeling, or do you have something to base it on?
So that we have a basis for comparison, please identify examples of horses of an equivalent age who have “brought the goods” with respect to eventing offspring (and please don’t mention Jumbo, Fleetwater Opposition, Catherston Dazzler, etc. – they are not comparators given the differences in age). Please provide evidence to support your statement so that we understand what you mean.
- Jenny Jones/Daisydonk: Do you have direct experience with any offspring such that you can draw conclusions about Graf’s propensity to throw a specific temperament? Is your criticism that he produces only “pro” rides, or are you saying his offspring are often unrideable, regardless of the rider’s ability? Is your conclusion as to temperament based upon one example of the stallion’s behavior at a stallion show? If not, tell us the basis for your conclusion, please.
Also, do you stand stallions yourselves?
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Stolensilver – your post is a bit of a cliffhanger. Who did you use? Also, what are the veterinary questions you refer to in your post? I have not heard anything along those lines and would be very interested in that information, for obvious reasons.
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Finally, other than the obvious older horses, who would be your top choice for a stallion in the U.K. to produce an FEI-level eventer?
Again – don’t take this the wrong way, I am not challenging your opinions, but very much want to know what they are based upon, so that I can make more informed choices in the future.
Thanks.
PF I used Upton’s Deli Circus. From one of his first tiny crops of foals he sired Upton’s Who. UDC won’t suit every mare, which stallion does? But he does have a temperament and soundness record few stallions can rival.
IMO the best eventing sire in the UK at the moment is Mill Law. He’s the leading sire of 6 and 7yo eventers in the UK and has at least one of his progeny on the Equine Pathway (considered a potential international horse) He can throw big and he can throw feisty but, my goodness, they do the job.
Thanks – I agree with you on UDC – he’s pretty much awesome. I wish he were available here. I know it can be done, but I’m not yet ready to tackle individual importation of frozen myself. Same issue for Mill Law.
Using Mill Law as an example, however, does Graf have a similar number of 6-7 year olds in the U.K. so as to make an apples-to-apples comparison?
I don’t have the specific date, but it looks like he was imported in the 2008 timeframe, which would make the majority of his U.K.-based offspring 4 years old or less at this point.
If we include Graf’s German offspring, does Mill Law have any offspring 9 years old or younger who competed at FEI levels in 2011? (if you know – I can try to research that later if needed). That would be a fairer comparison, and one that would get my attention.
Based upon what I know, it seems fairer just to state that the jury is still out with respect to the majority of Graf’s offspring rather than to denigrate the stallion using amorphous language. I do want to hear from the others, however, if they have specific information to which many are not privy.
