Grafenstolz offspring?

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@stolensilver;6086735

PF I used Upton’s Deli Circus. From one of his first tiny crops of foals he sired Upton’s Who. UDC won’t suit every mare, which stallion does? But he does have a temperament and soundness record few stallions can rival.

IMO the best eventing sire in the UK at the moment is Mill Law. He’s the leading sire of 6 and 7yo eventers in the UK and has at least one of his progeny on the Equine Pathway (considered a potential international horse) He can throw big and he can throw feisty but, my goodness, they do the job.

And while I like both those stallions…neither are really a good match for my mares for a few reasons (height, conformation, pedigree/blood, registry options (not critical but I do like to get papers on my foals if I can)). But nice stallions for sure.

PF–importing really isn’t that big of deal…as long as the stallion owners are willing to collect in accordance to USDA protocals (which the big stallion stations can do pretty easily). But I do agree…it is cheaper and easier to just call some the agents who are already bringing in a shipment.

[stolensilver]

Cooper’s Law is one of Mill Law’s oldest and best progeny. He went Advanced at the tender age of 7 and is out of an ID x TB mare. He qualified for Le Lion but was NQR when he came out of the horsebox so he wasn’t run. Fortunately it turned out to be nothing. He looks every inch a future 4**** horse.

Graf’s UK progeny are not old enough to be out competing yet. They’ve done well at the Futurity (a vet check and assessment of potential) Time will tell if that translates into ability in competition.

UDC’s offspring are in such small numbers from his first crops they should have sunk without a trace. Instead Upton’s Who is at 4**** and Deli Bon Bon is doing well at Novice as a 6yo. The plus point with UDC is that even if the foal doesn’t inherit his eventing ability they should be easy and amateur friendly and have good soundness. That’s what drew me to him.

[Jenny_Jones]

Interesting and balanced post, Peregrine Farms.

For me there is a theme here that is hugely important; the need to evaluate a stallion based on the information available (without hype or denigration) at the same time comparing him to a number of other potential choices evaluated in the same way. The request for apples to compare to apples, for example.

Unfortunately where we have apples, Germany will have oranges. The route to fame and fortune for a young event stallion in Germany will not compare to that of his British, or, I suspect American, counterpart. At 6, Graf wowed his audience at his Bundeschampionate; he did indeed do really well and I think its true to say that the ripples even reached Britain. His fortune should have been made at that point. Somehow he has failed to follow through. With stock competing from the early coverings plus his own success in all three disciplines, he should by now be such a success, there in Germany, that we shouldn’t even be having this discussion.

So why has he - maybe not failed, exactly, but certainly underachieved, when the world was his oyster?

Whereas you like his offspring, when I tried to see what he had produced (before he came to Britain and for my own reference) I was disappointed; most of the foals lacked his presence and seemed rather tubular. I also looked at a couple of other Polarion offspring (only video and photo) and saw similar traits; just my judgement, but no, not impressed. (I can’t get my head round the moose-like trot, either; Graf isn’t the only warmblood to do this; the hocks coming right up behind, like a Doberman. What does this action do in terms of performance? Genuine question there. Has it an advantage? It must lose speed.) Have any of his sons have been accepted as stallions in their own right?

Here in Britain the route for a potential eventing stallion is a lot less clear cut. There is a young event horse competition and the Futurity is developing, but these don’t have the clout of the German age group contests. Basically the young horse just has to get out there and do it. Recognition comes late as a result of success in competition and success of progeny. I suspect the same is true for young sires in America. So if anything, Graf, with a history in Germany, is at an advantage when compared to our younger sires; so no apples to apples.

An example of this can be even more clearly seen with a stallion like Esteban (same owner who is marketed as being a superior sire on the strength of a grading system that just doesn’t apply to the vast majority of TBs, some of whom, even on sheer statistics, have to be better horses. Apples and oranges!

Welton’s successors? The field is right open, I think, and breeders and riders seem to be pulling in different directions, with breeders eyeing the increased importance of dressage and going for the warmblood types whist riders still like something very nearly TB in order to make the time.

Stud fees; Mill Law this year; £700. Jumbo: £600. Wish Upon a Star: £550.
Chilli Morning: £850 (though this may be an old fee).
King’s Composer: £350 (though as above).

So Graf is being marketed as a top-end eventing stallion and his fee is relatively expensive. Yes, if we were comparing with Sea the Stars this would look like pocket money. But as with everything, its all relative.

As for the “paying people to go to the Futurity” episode. In itself this would be harmless enough; except that the Futurity, which was originally NOT a competition but an assessment of each foal in its own right, was beginning at this stage to change; such is human nature and the desire for competition. If I remember rightly stallion results were beginning to be compared based on a stallion’s highest scoring offspring; top 3, I think it was. Less than three; the stallion wasn’t included. More than three; the lower scores were ignored. This gave a false result; a sort of selective average. Sheer weight of numbers therefore affected the results. This wouldn’t have been so bad had not the owner seen fit to crow over animals that had, with a proper handling of the statistics, effectively performed better.

Am I a stallion owner? Is this meant to imply that I myself am deviously trying to undermine the opposition or that as merely a mare owner I can’t comment? This is the one thing that mars your post for me.

[tom]

The quality of the discussion, debate, and analysis in this thread is very un-COTH-like – it is very good. Lots of very balanced and considered statements being made pro and con by a lot of people.

[Jenny_Jones]

@Peregrine Farm;6086668

2. Jenny Jones/Daisydonk: Do you have direct experience with any offspring such that you can draw conclusions about Graf’s propensity to throw a specific temperament? Is your criticism that he produces only “pro” rides, or are you saying his offspring are often unrideable, regardless of the rider’s ability? Is your conclusion as to temperament based upon one example of the stallion’s behavior at a stallion show? If not, tell us the basis for your conclusion, please.

Sorry, forgot this.

My comment was about Graf’s own behaviour as demonstrated at a number of venues. It is NOT the excitability - the “Look at me, I’m the man” up on the hind legs type of thing that you associate with stallions; it seems to be basically napping; refusing to go forward, especially into a ring or through an entrance and going up in a response to pressure to move forward.

My comment was not that he produces pro rides or unrideable offspring; my comment was that his behaviour may or may not be significant. I am honestly not sure which as I am not sure where this behaviour comes from; whether it is a personal quirk or a result of past experience, or whether it will manifest in some way in the offspring when they are put under pressure. I believe Graf is nice to handle on a day to day basis.

[Peregrine_Farm]

Thank you Jenny, and thank you Tom, as well. I appreciate the substantive response.

As for your query about my stallion owner question, it is nothing personal and primarily historical. In prior exchanges on COTH involving the SO, it was pretty clear that some of the critics were, in fact, other stallion owners that had taken issue with the methods of marketing of this stallion (particularly the claims about # of mares covered), as did you. I also noted that you had a small number of posts here, and a high percentage of those relate specifically to criticisms of this SO – under those circumstances, it seemed a fair question to ask; sometimes the source of criticism does matter, and I just wanted to know where it was coming from.

Also, I haven’t converted the pound rates, but Graf’s stud fee here, if I remember correctly, was $750/dose, frozen. We purchased two doses and used them both to ensure pregnancy – that cost is pretty much in line with the stud fees of our domestic warmblood stallions and those available frozen (with some notable exceptions, of course). The main difference was the lack of a LFG.

By the way, I was able to identify three other Graf children with FEI records in 2011. Two more from 2002 (Kafried and Gismon Le Joli), and one from 2004 (Helena 220). Records were again up and down; Helena 220 did, however, reach the 1* level as a six-year old.

Thanks again. PF

[TSC]

“Do not believe all the figures for this stallion. The owner is a salesman who inflates the figures - a lot!” Is a total lie, I never inflate anything. One of the benefits of buying stallions who are top end, is that their results speak for themselves. Which figures in particular are you referring to with your libellous statement?

“Many of the coverings to good mares have been freebies to encourage the use of him” one breeding has been given for free, and that was a sponsorship I agreed to with Writtle College, to help upgrade their breeding program, as the stallions they were proposing to use were substandard of questionable approval status. You’re a liar.

“I have also seen this stallion several times since he came to England and the one thing that really impressed me was his lack of good behaviour.” Interestingly all the breeders who use him always comment on how well behaved he is, I wonder why they would say that and you would say the opposite?

“Yes he has a good jump and with a tactfull (sic) rider can produce a good trot, in fact he loves his big trot so much that his other paces dont get a look in.” His good jump got him clear at 2 metres in the puissance at the Stuttgart Masters (fact). It is also noted by every spectator from Badminton to Burghley, that it’s Graf who jumps higher and better than any other stallion there, perhaps with the exception of Royaldik. Graf doesn’t need to have his trot produced, medium trot is his natural pace, and is always wows the crowd. The riders I use are always under instruction to limit use of the trot in the ring, to save damaging him, thus the three other paces get an equal billing.

[TSC]

“Temperament apart he needs to be used on a good mare to get decent professional ride offspring.” Incorrect, in the opinion of the Futurity judges for the last two seasons, the overwhelming view of the judges is that it doesn’t matter which mare goes to Graf, you always get the same product, essentially a facsimile of Graf. Please check with your fellow NED board member Lynne Crowden, she’ll educate you.

“Graf himself had a big query on his soundness that was aired ad infinitum on various forums when he was first promoted in Britain.” Yes, by you and the other group of stallion owners who were scared (rightly so) of the business he was going to take away from you. So you attacked every part of him on forums, trying to destroy his reputation. Well the good news is that very few people listen to you, over three hundred mares in the UK alone have now used him, and the results are there to be seen in the Futurity. Graf had an injury deep in his butt when he was three as a result of falling over a wall backwards. Three years later he broke all records by being the only horse in history to compete in all three Bundeschampionat disciplines…six weeks later he became 6YO World Champion…must have been quite a debilitating injury.

“The only reason so many did turn up to the Futurities was becuse (sic) they were paid to do so” not a single breeder of The Stallion Company has ever has their Futurity entry paid for, not reimbursed, not knocked off their next breeding, nothing. I toyed with the idea as a marketing strategy, but 95% of my breeders came back to use Graf or Royaldik anyway, so there was no point. You’re a liar.

[TSC]

“I too like a stallion which produces the goods and to my mind this one fails to.” Here are some facts for you. BEF Futurity 2010 – Grafenstolz, champion sire for all ages and disciplines in his first year of trying, broke the record for the number of elite scores, highest scoring foal, five of the top 10 eventing foal were by Graf. 2011- Grafenstolz 2nd in the eventing sire rankings, 6 of the top 12 foals were by Graf, and again he holds (equally) the new record of 6 elite scores in one year. His foals went on to take 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in the finals, and his yearling took the Yearling championship as well. In the same year Graf also sired the winner of the Burghley young event horse 5YO finals, Zeno ridden by Piggy French. ALL FACTS. And the reason he didn’t have winners in 2,3 and 4YO’s? He didn’t have entered

“This sort of behaviour is said to have marred his early ridden career and to have diminished his popularity on the Continent” do you mean when he was winning the world championships, or competing in all 3 Bundeschampionat? Or when he won Compiegne twice? Or took the German Championship bronze at the age of 8? Or when he covered 120 mares in Germany alone, the year before I bought? Sorry to quote fact to quash your envy ridden bullshit.

“The British Equestrian Federation Futurity liked his offspring from a Shire cross Cleveland Bay/Thoroughbred last year; she was a nice mare in her own right and her sire was himself a very good eventer.” They also liked his offspring from light tb mares, so you are saying that he suits all mares. Thankyou.

[TSC]

“I don’t feel personally that the contest in which Graf came second has that much significance in terms of actual eventing.” Except of course, when you realise that he hadn’t competed in more than three year. What were saying about him having a bad temperament?

“Mary King commented (positively) @ Area VIII breeding discussion.” She loves the horse, so much so that she’s used him twice on Temptress (who she bred herself), AND she paid for both breedings, something she has never done with any other stallion in the UK.

“When did Grafenstolz’s owner ever inspire a good reaction from anyone?” just over 1100 times in 2011.

“Partly it was because, like many UK breeders, I dislike the way his owner conducts himself.” If you replace “many” with “a few” you’d be close to the truth, over 400 covering certificates will have gone to SHB(GB) for the 2011 breeding season. I guess my breeders have a different experience than you, that is to say some experience versus none.

“rather than rumor or general impressions of an anonymous poster” absolutely Peregrine farms, but that’s all you’ll get from these people, they’re long on attack and smear campaigns, but totally devoid on fact, which is hilariously what they accuse me of, I can smell the irony over here in Thailand.

[TSC]

“IMO the best eventing sire in the UK at the moment is Mill Law” your opinion is of little value to anyone other than yourself. In fact the best eventing sire in the UK is Jumbo (world ranked top ten), and the second best is my own Rubicell (world ranked #40), then Ramiro B (#43) and then my own Esteban (#71), there is a world outside of the UK,. Of course that before we consider my own Kannan who sits at number 8 in the world eventing rankings, whilst also being #5 in the world jumping rankings.

“Graf have a similar number of 6-7 year olds in the U.K. so as to make an apples-to-apples comparison” Graf’s big first crop were born in 2006, so the big wave of 6YO’s is this year, we’ll be able to judge like for like at the end of 2013 when he has his crops of 6 and 7 YO’s competing, the following year, he’ll go top 100, anyone want to take any bets?

“So why has he - maybe not failed, exactly, but certainly underachieved, when the world was his oyster?” Because eventing offspring take longer to hit the headlines, although having UK champions in three out of 6 ages groups in one year (and when he didn’t have any entered in the other age groups), kind of ruins your argument somewhat.
“An example of this can be even more clearly seen with a stallion like Esteban (same owner who is marketed as being a superior sire on the strength of a grading system that just doesn’t apply to the vast majority of TBs, some of whom, even on sheer statistics, have to be better horses.” Eeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, the sheer statistics are that he is the #71 eventing sire in the world FACT. He also the highest ranked living tb eventing sire. And you denigrate his approval with Holstein, Hannover, SF, BWP and Trakehner? How many other tb stallion hold that honour AND have five stallions sons approves Holsteiner??? Here are my “sheer” statistics, where are yours?

[TSC]

“Am I a stallion owner?” you forgot to answer, how convenient.

Dear Cothers, be very careful with these people, they attempt and in some cases succeed, to draw the eye away from what is staring you in the face. Fact becomes fiction and something to be attacked, and fiction becomes internet reality, protected by moderators in the main part, and allowed to attack me and my stallions without restraint. They have been doing this for over four years now, and whilst The Stallion Company has flourished and now owns some big name stallions, I’m not sure that what they have to say is helpful to anyone. When reading their words, notice this: always devoid of fact

I think that what we have seen here is another concerted smear campaign, using [bull] over fact. You know these very same people have tried to destroy Kannan who sold 637 breedings in 2011, and the legendary Parco who I also bought at Christmas. They are a group of very angry (through no fault of mine) women, who get angrier and angrier everytime I buy another top stallion. I’ll buy another top 100 stallion in a few weeks time, and then another before the end of the year. And my breeders and agents will continue to thank me, by buying/selling breedings. I have just been voted onto the breeding council of the UK’s biggest studbook, they see what gets written about me, but they see who’s writing it and they know the truth, my clients feel the same way. Surely all of these people can’t be blind/stupid?

[stolensilver]

Since TSC is talking facts it seems apt to bring up the fact that TSC is no longer the agent for Zangersheide. Or Brookhouse. Or Haras de Brullemail.

Here’s an old thread about some of the above with press releases from Leon Melchior

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=191239

[misita]

Popcorn popping. :eek:

[JER]

TSC was banned under his old name, FMulder.

But he’ll probably deny that, too.

[secretariat]

Emotional and in your face, yes - but I feel the same about my own horses. He makes good points with statistics. Calm, rational rebuttal, please: are quoted numbers accurate?

[VerifiableTruth]

Secretariat - quoted numbers are correct - just check for yourself. As you will see the stallion’s owner posting under TSC has now been banned, so much for freedom of speech! It seems to be quite ok for others on here to blast around slanderous comments though. This forum is full of cliques and it is near to impossible to put out a different side to the story in some topics, this one being a prime example. I know before i even hit send, that i will be accused of being the person in question and when i am banned too it will just prove my point. Yes, I am a new poster but that is because i saw this thread last night, read it and then was unsuprised to see TSC’s status as “banned” today - so have signed up just to have my say. I do not usually post on forums but do read many of them, so am not out of touch. I will not be staying on here and will not be getting into any debates about this, i would just like to establish some facts. 1) The stallion in question would not have passed a grading if he was any of the things that were said about him 2)If any of the things said about him were true (and if you look up some real statistics and facts or go and visit the stallion in the flesh, at stud, you will see they are not) then he has done remarkably well in competition having so many disadvantages!

[Peregrine_Farm]

That was sort of Exhibit A for KR’s being a bit over the top, wasn’t it?

IF, however, what has been said above is not true, or the result of a personal pique (and I have no idea what is true and what is not here, and frankly don’t care too much anyway), then I might also be rather upset by those allegations.

I don’t know about the breeding #s, and again, I don’t really think that means much, other than the stallion is popular. He’s relatively young as eventing stallions go, so as was pointed out earlier, the first real test will be over the next 2-3 years, when the majority of his offspring are old enough for more than low-level competition.

What can be verified/explained, however, is the hubbub about the futurity results.

BEF has a great and very user-friendly website that ranks stallions based upon their futurity-entered offspring by discipline. You can sort the statistics in any number of ways, and there is also a “sire component ranking” tab that shows how each stallion did individually in 6 different evaluation categories (vet, frame & build, athleticism, disposition, trot, and walk). Data goes back to 2009. You can sort by all years or by individual years.

http://www.britishbreeding.org/Rankings.aspx

So, to revisit a quote from Jenny Jones about the issues with the Futurity:

If I remember rightly stallion results were beginning to be compared based on a stallion’s highest scoring offspring; top 3, I think it was. Less than three; the stallion wasn’t included. More than three; the lower scores were ignored. This gave a false result; a sort of selective average. Sheer weight of numbers therefore affected the results. This wouldn’t have been so bad had not the owner seen fit to crow over animals that had, with a proper handling of the statistics, effectively performed better.

I don’t know what the stallion owner has represented about these results, but the implication that “sheer weight of numbers therefore affected the results” is misleading, especially given how the Futurity publishes its ranking information.

You can read the data for yourself, but here is a summary, with some additional analysis of my own.

1. Graf has, by far, the highest number of futurity entries for any eventing stallion. Using aggregate numbers from 2009-2011, he has 37, next is King’s Composer with 25, then Future Illusion with 21, then Primitive Proposal with 16. Stallions with less than 3 futurity offspring in the entire three years of recordkeeping, are not listed. On an individual year basis, individual stallions are listed. I think it is fair to limit the comparisons to stallions who at least have an average of one offspring in the futurity per year – if the three-year averages are being considered, the implication that the “3 offspring minimum” skewed the results is simply inaccurate.

2. Based upon the full 2009-2011 period, the average the overall scores of Graf’s 37 offspring places him in 3rd place overall, behind Dollar du Murier (3 offspring), and Renkum Valention (4 offspring). He is ahead of Sir Shutterfly, Jumbo, Chilli Morning, Future Illusion, Catherston Springsteen, Billy Congo, Welton Justice, Primitive Proposal, Catherston Dazzler, Mighty Magic, Jaguar Mail, and a whole host of others. Going back to the contention that the # of offspring skewed the results, I would argue that it actually skewed the results against Graf – the two horses above him in the rankings only had 3 and 4 offspring in play respectively, a far less representative data set than Graf’s 37.

3. With respect to the 2011 rankings (which is may be Jenny Jones specifically was referring to), Graf had 26 entries in eventing. The next highest stallion, Chilli Morning, had 8:

A. One of the categories ranked is “average of top 5 scores”. As would be expected, if a stallion did not have 5 offspring entered, then he was not ranked in this category. Graf finished first here.

B. The next category is “average of top 3 scores.” Again, as would be expected, if a stallion did not have 3 entries, then he was not ranked here. Graf was tops here, too.

C. The next category is “average of all scores.” Graf finished 3rd here with an average of 8.64, behind Chilli Morning (8 scores - 8.72) and Catherston Springsteen (5 scores - 8.71). If the SO represented that Graf had won this category, or had the highest average of all scores, then he was wrong to do that. The interesting thing here, however, is that if you take Graf’s top 8 scores (to put him even with Chilli Morning), Graf wins. In fact, the average of Graf’s top 23 scores puts him ahead of Chilli Morning. It is only when you add in the final 3 scores (out of 26) that he falls to third. Again, it appears that the fact that Graf had so many entries actually hurt him, rather than helped him here. In my view, the high average when he had so many more entries than other stallions makes his scores even more impressive.

D. Some highlights for Graf from the component scores, using 2009-2011 composite data (out of 69 stallions ranked):

Vet - 9th
Frame & Build - 4th
Athleticism - 5th
Disposition - 12th
Trot - 8th
Walk - 4th
Combined - 3rd (as described above)

But this is just futurity. We’ll find out whether all of this means anything in a few years.

Because this is probably tedious already, I’ve not fact-checked everything, but did so for some of the SO’s statements in the posts above about the 2011 futurity results:

2011- Grafenstolz 2nd in the eventing sire rankings

This is either ambiguous or mildly incorrect. He is an “eventing sire” and was second overall in all disciplines, but was the 3rd placing sire in eventing specifically, as described above.

6 of the top 12 foals were by Graf

This is an accurate statement. He further had 9 of the top 20.

The other statements I did not bother to check, but it looks like that most of the verifiable statements are true; don’t know about the unverifiable ones.

[vineyridge]

this is a very interesting thread to say the least.

Since he’s a Trak, and Vincent carries the Trak Verband designation, it would be extremely helpful if Maren would chime in here. She’s in Germany, and THE Trak expert, so she might have some facts on his German offspring. Has she ever commented on him that anyone remembers?

The idea that free breedings are a commitment to the stallion really isn’t true in these days of ET. The foals from superlative mares would be readily saleable as much for the mare as the stallion. It would be different if the mare carried the foal because then the owner would have “wasted” eleven months in the mare’s breeding and/or showing career.

I just went and looked at this year’s Le Lion results. No Grafenstolz. The 2* horses were foaled in 2003; the 1* horses in 2004. The sires were all over the place, but I made a list of those who are PROVEN eventing or equally well marketed sires for the 1* and 2*s.

Here they are:
Le Lion 2011–2003 foals
Yarland’s Summer Song
Primitive Star
Fleetwater Opposition
Ghareeb
Master Imp
Fleetwater Opposition
Sarastro
Yarland’s Summer Song
Frascator Mail
Cult Hero (WFP-Bay My Hero)
Kannan (Pippa Funnell-Billy Shannon)

Le Lion 2011-2004 foals
Cult Hero
Master Imp
Sarastro
Yarland’s Summer Song
Hoggar Mail

Just from a cursory examination, there seems to be a slightly larger concentration of established sires in the 2003 group than in the 2004 group. Since SFs are a mystery to me, most of the French sires didn’t mean much–except for Sarastro.

BTW, Grafenstoltz is a 1998 model, so if he started breeding in 2002, his first crop would have been at the 2* level at Le Lion in 2011.

The Britishers who posted on this thread have given information about his personal temperament and soundness that, if true, would be something to chew on before using him. Especially if it’s for a personal and not sales foal.

[Molly_Malone]

A thread in the German Trakehner forum trakehnerfreun.de reports that Graf crosses best on mares with blood and with good necks as he tends to throw slightly short and deep set necks. The offspring can all jump, have uphill canters and are a good type. There weren’t any negative comments about offspring that had started under saddle. He covered 200 mares in 2006 in Germany, more than any other Trakehner stallion.