Grafenstolz? Royaldik? Arg! Help us pick!

[notsureyet]

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Here’s a couple of pictures:

[IMG]http://i61.tinypic.com/elbg2a.jpg)
[IMG]http://i57.tinypic.com/24etm5f.jpg)

and her pedigree:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/abounding+angel

She’s by Devil His Due o/o a Cryptoclearance mare.

If I was going to breed a upper level eventer out of her, who should I pick?

[Hony]

I bred with Graf frozen two years ago and my mare didnt’ catch. I found out later from a friend in England who has started several Graf’s that I dodged a bullet because his kids can be tough. Royaldik is also very special so if he has the temperament to go with it I’d go with him. Good luck! Nice mare!

[EventerAJ]

What are her weaknesses? Conformationally, what would you improve? Movement?

What sacrifices would you be willing to make?

I really like Royaldik, so that’s who I would lean towards, though I’ve heard good things from Grafenstolz too. I’d also look into stallions at the Pollards-- Songline and Halimey are fantastic, I’ve seen both compete and would love to breed to either of them.

[westonmaestro]

Of the two looking at your mare, Royaldik. However I do not see him as an event stallion more of a dressage type. If you are looking for an upper level eventer I would look further.

[Philoctetes]

I would definitely lean toward Royaldik. The babies are looking very nice. He is 50% blood. You would be in pretty good company also since Mary King is now expecting a foal, possibly 2, from Royaldik. Lucinda Fredricks either has one on the ground or is expecting one. And the 4 star mare R Star, who retired this year, is to be bred to Royaldik. Seems quite a few people see him as an eventing stallion.

[vineyridge]

Kannan is doing very well in the BE sires ratings. He’s owned by the same folks that own the other two stallions. If you are going that way, at least take a look at Kannan and see what you think he might do with your mare.

I should point out that Weston Justice is doing pretty well in the rankings also, has competed as an Advanced eventer, and is available through EMCO. With your mare’s breeding, you’d get a triple to Hoist the Flag which is very promising athletically, but could produce a tough ride.

[omare]

I like Viney’s suggestion- the only draw back to Royaldik is that he seems to bring such a big dose of dressage blood on top one might be concerned about the jump until he has assured he passes it? (unless that is a dual purpose dressage line?) I am not sure how far along Royaldik oldest are now, but Kannan seems to assure that part. of the equation

[Philoctetes]

Agreed that at first glance it does appear to be more dressage linked but I think that comes from the Royal Diamond and definitely the Rubenstein that sort of glares at you. But don’t forget that Rubenstein scored almost as well on the jumping portion of his inspection as he did on the dressage portion. Also on the sire side you find that Royaldik goes back to Inschallah, an Anglo-arab TB, who has had great influence on sport horse breeding. Royaldik’s oldest crop of foals is 5 this year. Word is beginning to get out that they are very nice in terms of temperament, ride, and ability. I only looked into Royaldik so much because we had hoped to breed a mare to him but have found she will not be a good candidate for frozen.

[omare]

Thanks that is helpful to know.

[ponygirl]

I’d suggest perhaps looking at the holsteiner stallion Hunter who is by Heraldik. He has offspring at the upper levels now with limited breeding. He’s now available fresh. Located in CA.

[tom]

Royaldik’s oldest crop is not 5. I bred one that is 10 this year. Here are some of his progeny:
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/66465
From this list he seems to make lower-level dressage horses.

[Philoctetes]

That is good to know also. Some of my info came from the agents for Royaldik, some from word of mouth, and some digging. But obviously not enough digging! Interesting that the vast majority of that list does not actually have any sort of competition level listed.

[tveley]

I love my 2 y/o Grafenstolz filly. She has a great mind and is gorgeous.

[Manni01]

something different to consider… Buddenbrock… He is pretty proven…

[goodmorning]

I must say, Kannan with the right mare is interesting. Hunter is a good suggestion, but, I’d probably like him on a mare I could count on for a few things…his movement & that of some of the offspring easily found, are kind of typical with Alcatraz who can have various types of steps, his seems a bit up & down, but I’d say the mare might have more say in this than Hunter? Unknowns given he hasn’t been used that much, and why I might use him on a more proven mare.

Worth a look is the young stallion Ehrentanz.

Depending on your mares type, there is also a SF stallion Krisproll One worth looking into. Flexible is obviously worth a look, too.

I had the pleasure of seeing Quintender gallop & jump…he has a fantastic gallop, he looks like a TB. However, enough real blood for an UL horse? I’m not sure…

Has Ciceras Icewater thrown a real UL eventer yet? I think he’d suit modern eventing well, but it may take an F2 with him.

Your mares type is probably the biggest question. There are some more, but, I really can’t suggest them without a type.

[elizabeth_Callahan]

My Grafenstoltz out of a Riverman/TB mare is quite nice, but prob not an ammie horse. Gallop is fabulous

[FatCatFarm]

Mentioned in another thread, Flagmount’s Freedom is producing them and is No. 10 on the 2013 USEF list of eventing sires. I’ve corresponded with his owner and his stud fee is going up next year; it’s still at $1250 for now. I’ve looked at a lot of his get online as there are a bunch of them to check out and the type is very consistent with TB mares. No, he’s not a warmblood if you have your heart set on one, he’s an Irish Sport Horse by Flagmount King who was an RID out of a TB mare. So no, not the fanciest of pedigree if that’s important to you but bred to TB mares for a 3/4 TB 1/4 Irish Horse seems to be getting the job done.

I too have heard that Buddenbrock crosses very well with TB mares, but he’s getting on in years at this point.

[zelensky]

Another slightly "left field"suggestion could be Future Gravitas, a very nice young stallion in the UK who Mary King has just used - she was especially interested in his damline (Winsome Adante is his damsire); his sire is Grafenstolz. He’s only just started going out and about as he’s only 4, but is already attracting a lot of attention. I think it’s unheard of for Mary King to go for an as yet unproven stallion! Pippa Funnell also interested I believe. Of course you would be taking a risk with only one year’s progeny on the ground so far, and obviously none out competing. Might just be worth it … This is him: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=Future+Gravitas&sex=&color=&dog_breed=any&birthyear=&birthland=

[katarine]

I’d chose Royaldik just for the chance to have this conversation:

them: “Oh, he’s a nice baby! Who’s he by?”
me: “He’s a Royaldik”

pause…
them: WHAT?!

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I have a lovely (now) 2 year old by Grafenstolz out of a TB mare. Smart and a really nice type. Big time movement and gallop. I already have a lot of interest in him for sale although I’ve decided to keep him for myself. His dam is in foal for next year to Future Gravitas (a son of Grafenstolz out of the dam of Winsom Adante).

I’ve seen Royaldik in person and he was lovely. Very good jump on him and nice type. I’d say Graf is more proven for event horses but I do think that Royaldik crossed on a good TB mare could produce an UL event horse. He is on my short list for a few mares…but to me he is a bit more of a gamble for eventing.

sorry…not much help but both are lovely. Here pictures of my Graf colt when he was still by his dam. The one thing I will say on Graf is that he tends to really stamp his offspring. They are a very similar in type. For my mare, he improved the neck and shortened up the top line but didn’t take away from her movement or gallop.