Green bean and (not) going forward

[gertie06]

At all three gaits, my 5 year old can get super behind the leg. When I put my leg on, he gets a hump in his back like he’s going to buck. He will normally just crow hop a bit and carry on, but still, this is not a good situation.

My trainer says to ride him more forward. Well, yes, obviously. But when I add leg, and then escalate to the cluck or stick, the problem sometimes gets worse.

A couple of things:

1. Saddle fit. The fitter has been out and made adjustments.
2. Back pain. We’ve x-rayed his back and there’s nothing obviously amiss. He’s not sensitive to palpations anywhere on his back.
3. Ulcers. Maybe? But he doesn’t show any other ulcer-y behaviors or symptoms. He lives on a supplement for stomach and hindgut support because I believe it’s a smart move for all horses in work.
4. He tends to do it worst near the barn and the arena gate, so there is definitely some barnsourness at play here…but is that all it is? I think there’s more to it.
5. Lameness. None suspected at this time. I just bought him in March and we xrayed feet and hocks with no major concerns.

Over the course of a ride, he gets much better…but even at the end, he still really doesn’t want to go forward.

I would love anyone’s insight on this. What could I be missing?

P.S. I should add that, in general, he is a lazy type. Even to lead him, he moves like a glacier most of the time.

[ClassyJumper]

Maybe not the most concrete advice but if you have time check out episode 139 of the Stacy Westfall podcast. I just listened to it yesterday and it made a huge difference in my ride.

Personally, I always do my upward transitions, particularly in warm up, before/by the gate. I think it’s just a good habit, especially for the young/pokey ones to associate the gate with “go” rather then an opportunity to get slow/sticky.

[Jealoushe]

Definitely treat for ulcers first if you aren’t certain.

Does he do this if someone else rides him like your trainer?

Whats your “go to” move when this happens? Break it down for us.

A horse should very first stop, go and turn. Until the stop go is fixed I wouldn’t work on anything else.

[gertie06]

Probably wise to treat for ulcers. We all know how common they are.

Yes, he does this for the trainers as well.

Here’s my protocol:

• At the walk, we march. No shuffling. When I put my leg on and engage my seat, and get a response, I relax leg pressure. Trying to teach him that pressure is removed when he gives the right answer (forward).
• If I ask for trot and he doesn’t respond, I will first kick, then cluck, then tap with stick behind my leg until he trots. After a few steps, we return to the walk and try again. I don’t want him to get the idea that the cue for trot is squeeze/kick/cluck/stick. Once he trots off smartly, I remove all pressure and give praise (wither scratches). Same protocol for the canter.

[splitrockfarmnc]

From a training standpoint, assuming the obvious medical and physical questions are addressed, I would reassess how you (and your trainer if they also ride the horse) ask for forward. And maybe more importantly, how you handle it when he protests going forward by humping up his back and whatever else might go on.

So to tackle the forward issue, it sounds like you need to get the aid re-established. Start on the ground, leading in hand. Carry a dressage whip so you can reach back toward his hip without changing your body position. Give a cluck and walk on briskly. If he doesn’t immediately march off with you, alongside you, give a firm tap with the whip and keep moving. Do not pull the lead rope, this is a hind end/response to aids exercise. Come back to a halt and repeat as many times as it takes for him to get tuned in enough that the second you step forward, he is right there with you.

Once you’ve got a feel for that, start the same exercise under saddle. From halt, give a quiet but clear aid form seat and leg to ask him to walk on. Not a crawl, a WALK. If he doesn’t immediately step off your leg into a forward walk, give a correction from either your leg or your whip/crop. There are some tricky elements to this though. First, you don’t want to whack the crap out of him, but the correction needs to be just that - a correction! It has to be firm enough that he shoots forward for a few steps so he really understands that you said something (your light aid) and you meant it. Second is that if he gives a BIG reaction to the correction (which is OK), that you don’t accidentally catch him in the mouth or clamp down on his sides or the saddle, because that would then be punishing/telling him to stop advancing. Third, and very important, is that you must quickly return to a halt and ask for the upward transition again using that same quiet aid you originally asked with. See if your correction was successful. If he doesn’t promptly respond to that light ask, repeat the exercise until he does. Once this is reliably working from Halt-Walk, start doing the same at a trot and canter.

If you are consistent with the aids, you follow through on correction when needed, and you always come back and ask with the quiet aid again, they usually sort this out very quickly. Also remember, forward does not mean fast speed, but it does mean fast response. Think of your horse as being forward in his brain, meaning he is paying attention and ready to react (appropriately) when you say it’s time to go.

But - all of that is irrelevant if he is having a physical issue like ulcers or pain somewhere. So just make sure you do your due diligence and check all those boxes first. And remember, he’s young. His mind and body is still developing so your consistency now will make a big difference for the long term.

[Jealoushe]

Ok I can help tweak one thing

When teaching the aid say from walk to trot and using the whip;

Ask for trot with your leg
No response, then quick tap with the whip, if no reaction another tap harder.
Once trotting praise, but then test the aid again. Put your leg on again, did he move more forward? If not then tap with the whip until moves forward, but then test again with the leg. You want to reiterate that the aid is the leg, first and foremost.
The whip is just an extra reminder, but always go back and test that the leg now works.

That being said, once this horse is going, I would go for a YEE HAW as CDJ would say. That means canter, forward, gallop, around and around until the horse is going forward on his own.

If there is nothing physical, this will help within a few rides.

[candyappy]

Even when the saddle appears to fit/ professionally fitted/ fitted well just yesterday , I still think the horse is the ultimate authority on how it really fits( or doesn’t).

In my experience a horse who doesn’t want to go forward is experiencing discomfort somewhere and we need to listen. Saddle fit is more common than ulcers for so many horses. I would investigate that before pushing the horse forward.

[gertie06]

OMG this is all such great advice. Thank you.

Because I’ll tell you – leading is a problem. Not a big problem, but still. I have to drag him around when we’re not going in his chosen direction. So he’s showing this behavior even on the ground. I love your advice of starting with leading in hand.

[Jealoushe]

Yes it sounds like he doesn’t have the very basic - stop go - installed yet.

[Heinz_57]

My youngster was balky, too - I actually had to reach back and smack him on the butt if I didn’t have a whip, or he just would. not. move. He will still try it if he’s given a long period off.

I agree with the leg, whip reinforcement and being very consistent, don’t find yourself having to nag nag nag after a while or waiting 5 seconds for him to move off - go means go, now. Does he lunge on voice commands, promptly? Respect the lunge whip? That might be a good place to start if he’s all around nonplussed about moving out on cue. You can then transfer those skills over to the ridden work, or bridge the two and lunge him with a rider.

[gertie06]

I think you guys are spot on and I’m really glad I posted this question. We’re going to work on installing the “go” button on the ground – in hand and on the lunge. Great suggestion to bridge the concept by lunging him with a rider when the time comes.

[splitrockfarmnc]

I also wanted to mention something about the balkiness at the gate. Get to him before he gets to you, meaning BEFORE he starts to slow down and get behind your aids, ask him for more. More walk, more trot, more canter, an upward transition, whatever. Anything that isn’t less than what he was already doing. Do it every single time you pass the gate and that will start to take care of the issue as well. Just make sure you ask before he gets behind the aids so that you aren’t just asking for more because he got slow (mentally or physically).

[S1969]

Is he in shoes? Or barefoot? When I first had my race-trained, ex-broodmare TB under saddle I had the vet do a lameness evaluation - there wasn’t anything really obvious from my perspective but she seemed unwilling to go forward. He suggested front shoes and the different was unbelievable.

If he is in shoes, then I doubt that is the issue. But it wasn’t something I was thinking; I was thinking injury/lameness.

[gertie06]

Yeah, he’s in shoes all around.

[banmharcach]

Can you get him out of the ring into a large field or decent trails where he could be ridden amongst a few forward buddies? If the incentive to move is provided by the other horses, you’ll not have to nag /annoy and he’ll hopefully begin to associate more forward with less aid.

Even in a ring, a couple of buddies and a follow-the -leader type game in different gaits rather than routine flat work might perk his interest.

[sweetsalute]

@splitrockfarmnc

I also wanted to mention something about the balkiness at the gate. Get to him before he gets to you, meaning BEFORE he starts to slow down and get behind your aids, ask him for more. More walk, more trot, more canter, an upward transition, whatever. Anything that isn’t less than what he was already doing. Do it every single time you pass the gate and that will start to take care of the issue as well. Just make sure you ask before he gets behind the aids so that you aren’t just asking for more because he got slow (mentally or physically).

I very much second this. My 4yo is a few months under saddle, and she’s got “spots” where she likes to slow, break from the trot back to the walk etc. The gate is one such spot. It’s much much easier to pre-empt it than correct it!

She’s also a tricky one to get going forward although in her case I think it’s more some inherent laziness (actually a nice change from my other horse who is hot hot hot). Definitely work on it from the ground, we’ve now got a pretty good walk/trot, canter is a work in progress. Expect a reaction when correcting sometimes.

[GraceLikeRain]

It sounds like you’ve gotten a lot of great advice. Keeping things very consistent and always starting with a soft ask and clear escalation of the ask is important. Three tips to add/reinforce

1. always address without emotion. He isn’t being behind the leg because he’s “bad”. He’s learned that it is easy and has been rewarded by less work so he will test a lot. Responding without emotion keeps things really clear.
2. make sure you really start each time with the amount of ask you want. The fourth, fifth, hundredth time you’ve had to send him forward it’s easy to make the first ask be a kick but you’re teaching him to go off the lightest touch so you always have to give him a chance.
3. if you have to escalate the pressure, escalate pressure not tempo. 99% of us increase the frequency of the aid being applied when instead the horse learns best by realizing that every X of delay results in an escalation of pressure. If instead we ask, wait a second, ask harder, and then whack whack whack, we don’t know if they went on whack 1 or 3.

[mmeqcenter]

This is exactly how my mare has always behaved with an ulcer flare up. Sucking back, resistant to leg, if really bad will hump her back and hop, go backwards, threaten to rear, and it looks to an observer that it is barn-sour because it’ll be worse at the gate, etc. Ulcer treatment puts her back to normal the very next day.

[outerbanks77]

It is coming up on a year since I backed my now 5 year old warmblood mare, and she has been so sticky compared to any of the other handful of babies I’ve started, or taken on as total greenies. Really, I was close to sending her off to a pro because I thought I was screwing up and wouldn’t be able to get her past it. She would rear, kick at my leg, just stall and refuse to move a toe. It was super frustrating, and a 2 steps forward, 1 step back type thing (literally!).

Now she still has her sticky moments, but is so much more forward and rarely fully quits on me like she was. After trying all kinds of things, what seemed to really make the difference was a) lunging her in side reins, and b) introducing some lateral work in the walk. Pay really close attention and see if you can find out a reason behind his stickiness. For her, even though she was a relatively balanced feeling baby to me, she HATES being out of balance and would just stop any time she felt off kilter. So the lateral work helped me show her that I could help her with her balance if she would allow my aids to go through. Then when she was trotting I could keep her body parts more in alignment and she seemed to feel better about things. Next, the side reins gave me a chance to show her that she could and WOULD be snappy and move forward into the bridle. Just a few minutes of trotting and cantering both ways in the SRs was really the turning point for her. Now I usually lunge and make sure I have that forward button on the ground before I get on. Also, trying to infuse an element of fun, just by thinking “hey, let’s trot over and see that thing!” and now let’s go see that other thing! type of mindset helped. Also when she did stop, I found I had to maintain contact and not let her look around, even if she was not going to move forward. It’s important not to compress them so much that they want to rear, but they also shouldn’t be allowed to just stand. I did try at one point to just wait her out until she got bored and decided to walk off; yeah, that didn’t work… keeping her on the bit and giving annoying little taps with the bat was more effective. Also, backing a step or pushing her haunches over a bit helped when her feet really glued to the ground.

Now with the riding I make sure to do at least one extra up transition after a down transition. No trot tour, then walk break. It is trot tour, walk on the bit five steps, trot off like we mean it, maybe one more time, and then a break. This way she doesn’t think it’s one and done. Getting her trotting over cavaletti has helped as well, because it seems to help free up the muscle blockages in her back, so she’s not focused so much on blocking out my aids. Also little transitions within the trot work (and canter if you can), so that you’re testing for that forward response really frequently, and addressing it if you don’t get the right response.

Good luck! It’s been a frustrating process, but also very educational for me, and has really made me think and problem solve.

[TheDBYC]

@mmeqcenter

This is exactly how my mare has always behaved with an ulcer flare up. Sucking back, resistant to leg, if really bad will hump her back and hop, go backwards, threaten to rear, and it looks to an observer that it is barn-sour because it’ll be worse at the gate, etc. Ulcer treatment puts her back to normal the very next day.

Thank you for this! Dawned on me that maybe ulcers could be part of the problem with our hunter pony & we ought to try ulcer treatment.