Grinding Baby Green

[anon85381834]

Hi all. I am an adult ammy with a baby green warmblood, just about to turn 5. He’s a pretty impatient guy but he can jump around a course with no hesitation like a dream.

He has an issue with grinding his teeth under saddle, paired with a general “whiny” attitude. I know some of that is just him being a baby, but it is not improving over the months I’ve owned him. He has a sporadic attention span at best!

He’s been scoped/treated for ulcers as he had one small one, but the grinding has not stopped at all. The vet has said his body’s in perfect shape, and he had his teeth floated recently. Saddle fits fine. I’ve tried a few types of snaffles, but he grinds all the same. He will grind at random times, ring or trail, though he definitely grinds the most during lessons when he’s sick of working.

He gets 12 hrs turnout at night with a buddy, worked 4 or sometimes 5 times a week, with only low height, low impact courses jumped twice a week. He’s only been to one show in the time I’ve had him, life isn’t too overly stressful for him.

Any ideas on how to build his work ethic? Is this just a baby thing? I try to keep things interesting every hack, lots of circles, always trail ride afterward.

[Equkelly]

If you take him out for an easy trail ride will he still grind his teeth and act whiny? Can you try to switch it up a little? I know you said he doesn’t have a good attention span but I find that the babies don’t like a lot of “drilling” which is hard for us because we’re usually trying to build a top line and get them in shape so physically they do need it. But sometimes I think it can be beneficial to take a step back and switch it up and let them find enjoyment out of their work.

[SuzieQNutter]

Grinding teeth can be because of pain. I have never really heard of a horse that does it for enjoyment or concentrating, but others may have.

Other than that use plenty of verbal praise when riding instead of treats.

[hoopoe]

In dressage grinding is a sign of tension and will be marked down as such above and below the line. Tension may be mental or it may be muscle / soft tissue fatigue.

As a not yet 5yo that is jumping little courses, I would back off on work intensity. Focus on your flat training for the balance strength and fluidity that you need to jump the fences well. This is not usually a bit issue. Head mouth and frame issues rarely are.

Do you have access to a Dressage instructor who can guide you to a more methodical / progressive flat routine. Your horse should be starting some leg yield and getting a lot of correct up and down transitions. Leg yield to poles and spiral in out later adding poles are great exercises. Spirals have nothing to do with the bit and everything to do with proper use of leg to hand.

[anon85381834]

Equkelly - He grinds on the trail sometimes with ears forward and no other signs of discomfort. But he’s definitely more likely to do it in the ring. I’m definitely looking for ways to switch things up for him and not let him get bored.

Suzie- I’ve worried it is pain, but I can’t find any discernable reason : ( teeth, back, hocks, legs + x rays are all good, and he’s just finishing up on Gastrogard. Mostly only ever happens at the walk, always more at the end of a ride.

hoopoe - I have noticed his leg yeilding/response to bending is not great. Poles definitely keep him interested, will definitely be backing off more on the workload. I just get wary of him thinking only flatwork = drilling flatwork.

[TheMoo]

In my experience it’s a discomfort sign. Pain somewhere or more not liking how they are being ridden. For example my horse will do it if someone is way to handsy. Your saddle could appear to fit but not fit, or there is something going on which would require diagnostic tools such as x-rays or a bone scan.

[merrygoround]

I’ve seen it with horses doing something new, and/or difficult. Once they learned the exercise, or dealt with the trail terror several times, the grinding ended.

[bathsheba8542]

Unless you’ve scoped, you don’t know that his ulcers have resolved. My horse was on multiple courses of Ulcerguard (without scoping), and I threw thousands of $$$ at it until we scoped and found out he also needed misoprostil. And then it was another 3 months. And he still grinded his teeth. So it was ulcers, and then it was saddle fit (despite everyone saying how great the saddle fit).

[Equkelly]

@anon85381834

Equkelly - He grinds on the trail sometimes with ears forward and no other signs of discomfort. But he’s definitely more likely to do it in the ring. I’m definitely looking for ways to switch things up for him and not let him get bored.

When he does it on the trail is it when you’re leaving the barn? Or is when you add leg? Ask for a trot, ask for a canter? Does he do it at the beginning of the ride or throughout? Is it only going away from the barn?

[EmilyM]

Could be his tmj hurts. I have a baby green similar age. He has tmj stiffness and that has caused him to grind. But also came to find out despite having a dentist come 2x per year, his teeth were not in perfect shape. he overground some teeth and some were not floated entirely as they should. Grinding has reduced tremendously getting another dentist and chiro for tmj.

[Momateur]

Barring any medical issues, to me he sounds like he carries tension/anxiety. Not only is he grinding, he’s also highly distracted (per your description). There are a lot of really simple exercises you can do for his relaxation. Just ask your trainer or COTHers. Some of it is even on the ground. Also, how’s YOUR anxiety level? Horses are so intuitive. Sometimes you have to change yourself to change your horse.

[kande04]

I thought I heard my horse grinding his teeth once and stopped what I was doing immediately because 1) it’s an indication that they’re seriously stressed about something, and 2) once they learn to grind it can become a life long issue.

All the horses I’ve known who grind their teeth have, IMO, good reasons to feel overstressed, so I do think it does comes from overwork, pain, anxiety, or something well beyond what horses normally endure.

[Victorious]

Do you ride with a lot of seat? I know I am hopelessly old school, but the young ones I have seen that grind are usually being asked to do stuff that is over their heads such as collection or even too much seat. I think we sometimes push the warmbloods faster because they are so naturally quiet. We mistakenly think they are ready to move along because they aren’t showing signs of not accepting our aids etc, but in reality…that is exactly what you young guy is doing. He is telling you very clearly that he is not enjoying his job and is in over his head. TB’s tend to demonstrate that feeling rather obviously with bucks, bolts, excessive sweating, bit chomping but the WBs seem more likely to internalize. I would try long loose rein hacking in a more forward two point position for a while, just at a walk and trot. Let him have his head and let him relax. Wander off the path and look at birds and creeks. Basically remind him that you are his fun adventure partner and not his school marm out to discipline. I believe both of you will enjoy this and it gives him plenty of time to grow up. He may not even be done physically growing yet. I had one mare grow 2 inches from 5-8 years old!! Whatever you decide, remember this is your journey and you can’t measure your success on someone else’s timeline. Good luck!

[Nickelodian]

What bits have you tried? What chiro work has been done? What food is he eating?

[x]

I had a tooth grinder. He was a pleasure horse. He would grind his teeth if you were really getting after him to be very perfect in his headset, etc. He would also grind at the first horse show of the season. He had been very well trained and obviously drilled in what he was to do in the ring…I dealt with the problem by easing up on him. I didn’t ask for perfection every time I rode, him and did lots of other stuff besides ring. Trail, foxhunting, etc. He was a 4 year old when I got him and knew his job in the ring really, really well, so I was careful not to drill him. He knew his headset and gaits and everything so well I didn’t really school him on it, just went into the showring after longing him for 5 or 10 minutes. The first show of the season he would be anticipating really being asked for perfection–I just didn’t do it, and after the first show of the season, the grinding would stop. (But after the winter off of showing, it would come back for the first show of the season). The horse was so close to perfect in his headset, etc. that I let him be as he would–and he usually was good enough to win. But if I got to picking at him asking for better he would start grinding.

[greysfordays]

I agree you should rescope to be sure the ulcers went away. I treated for over 6 months and probably that many scopes before I was sure. Did the gastrogard help with the grinding? If so, that would definitely indicate some kind of stress discomfort…

I would also do as much outside the arena as possible. Particularly if your trails are a bit more up and down and uneven. It will help him use his hind end and lift up his stomach as well as practice finding his balance. It sounds like he’s already ahead of the curve in terms of jumping courses nicely. Try to preserve that joy for him by doing it a little less.

[Say_No_More]

I have a horse that grinds his teeth too. Mine does it at any time, including when on the ground and loose in the pasture. He’s 7 now and has been doing it for about two years.

[ElementFarm]

@anon85381834

Equkelly - He grinds on the trail sometimes with ears forward and no other signs of discomfort. But he’s definitely more likely to do it in the ring. I’m definitely looking for ways to switch things up for him and not let him get bored.

Suzie- I’ve worried it is pain, but I can’t find any discernable reason : ( teeth, back, hocks, legs + x rays are all good, and he’s just finishing up on Gastrogard. Mostly only ever happens at the walk, always more at the end of a ride.

hoopoe - I have noticed his leg yeilding/response to bending is not great. Poles definitely keep him interested, will definitely be backing off more on the workload. I just get wary of him thinking only flatwork = drilling flatwork.

You just described my then-young WB gelding 100%. He was worse in the ring, but even a walking, on-the-buckle trailride with a good friend would have him grinding, and more so at the end of the ride. I know you said you scoped, but with mine, it turned out to be ulcers (with zero other indications of them). We started him on ulcer treatment, and the years-long grinding habit stopped overnight like someone flipped a switch. As I worked with the horse over his career, it turned out that grinding was his ‘tell’. If he was uncomfortable in the work we were asking him to do (this is too hard), he’d grind. If his feet hurt, he’d grind, if he was feeling a little ulcery, he’d grind. We experimented with all the bits, hackamores, different saddles, etc. The thing was, the grinding turned out to always be a “this hurts” response (sometimes whiney, sometimes very legitimate), and it took some detective work to figure out exactly what it was he was objecting to. Once we id’d and addressed it, the grinding went away again.

So I think your instincts are sound that it’s pain of some sort. But investigating the source can be frustrating, especially if it’s the same symptom he’s showing you to various problems. Maybe gastroguard is helping, but he has hindgut ones.

[anon85381834]

As an update - he is down to being ridden 4 times a week. Only jumped once a week, trainer ride once for lead changes, and gets two low-key hacks. He is finishing up his course of Gastrogaurd, though has made no difference in grinding since the start.

There are two main times he grinds: the middle/end of a hack in the arena when he’s being asked to work and use his top line; and then more randomly when he is alone in the ring/sees something scary/would rather be at the barn, even if out on the trail.

I don’t blame him for not wanting to work - work sucks! - but he’s got the talent to be such a nice horse, and it’s hard to convince him to want that too I’ve tried to get a look at his body language when he does it. More often than not, his ears are forward, he’s tugging down and on the bit, relaxed yet grinding away.

My biggest worry is that this is already a habit I can’t break him of, if this is mental/not pain, because no one can find anything wrong with him physically.

Thank you all for your comments/suggestions so far

[Mac123]

I too think grinding is due to pain or anxiety. It could be his way of saying “that’s hard” but I would accept that as a last resort.

Keep in mind all vets, dentists, saddle fitters, chiropractors and treatments aren’t equal. I know you say he checks out, but I think he warrants a closer look. Sometimes even if it’s not a skill or knowledge thing, a second set of eyes can see something different.

Ulcerguard is not the 100% cure-all for ulcers. I’ve had some that don’t respond to that but do you other products. Hind gut ulcers typically are treated differently than stomach ulcers.

I’ve seen saddles that fit textbook perfect that the horse just doesn’t like for some reason.

All that to say, it’s easy to check all those boxes and assume it’s not something physical when it is. It’s possible he’s just tired and sore from working hard as a youngster too.

It could also be anxiety from being asked to do too much. So hard to tell!