I make a tapping the air motion with a crop towards the hind quarters. Or if I have a lead rope in my hands I swing the end of it towards the hind end. Never need to actually touch the horse. I do it slowly and the horse moves over without running away.
That crouching stance,in my horse language,means back-off,get out of my space.i imitate the alpha mare lowering her head,pinning her ears,threatening and telling the other horses to get away from her food,out of her space.
[QUOTE=tabula rashah;8621342]
Look up info on Morten Thomsen and Tristan Tucker. I’ve had the pleasure of working with both:) Usually any sessions they do are private so I’m not sure how much video is out there.[/QUOTE]
You’re right - there’s not much. I found one video of a seemingly traditional dressage lesson, and this article describing seemingly traditional dressage pros in action: http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2015/03/tristan-tucker-takes-a-lesson-with-morten-thomsen/ Not a mention of “NH” anywhere, I’m afraid.
I also tried Googling variants of the phrase “natural dressage”, and all I found was Linda P riding badly, Karen Rolph riding bareback, and a lot of rather scary amateur videos of stick-wielding people madly frolicking with their horses:
This one is just . . . :eek:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcctMBE89YA
[QUOTE=Red Barn;8620990]
The “NH” people never do this, either in discussing groundwork or ridden work. They tend, instead, to talk a lot about the horse’s psychology, and to catalog various kinds of behavioral or emotional resistances that might be in play - never dreaming, apparently, that the horse may simply be lacking in fitness or strength, or that the rider himself may be less than competent. (Any “NH” video of “disengaging the hindquarters” illustrates this perfectly, pretty much regardless of the practitioner.)
Does that help to illustrate my question? I feel like I’m just not being clear.
.[/QUOTE]
Maybe you should look up some of the accomplishments of the NH people that you feel only address the psychology. You will find world champions, world record holders, colt starting champions, reining champions, cutting, roping, etc champions. So yes, you are not being clear because you are judging anyone who utilizes NH principles on the very limited and narrow experiences you’ve had.
But anyway, this is turning into a “dressage is superior” thread. I’d take a brilliant cutting horse over a brilliant dressage horse all day any day. They are so much more naturally balanced and athletic.
[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8621832]
Maybe you should look up some of the accomplishments of the NH people that you feel only address the psychology. You will find world champions, world record holders, colt starting champions, reining champions, cutting, roping, etc champions. So yes, you are not being clear because you are judging anyone who utilizes NH principles on the very limited and narrow experiences you’ve had.
But anyway, this is turning into a “dressage is superior” thread. I’d take a brilliant cutting horse over a brilliant dressage horse all day any day. They are so much more naturally balanced and athletic.[/QUOTE]
Well, you need to mention that no one that only worked in Parelli stuff ever became a champion at any other.
They either were proficient before they investigated that crazy system, or moved on to learn thru traditional trainers in their discipline.
Parelli is not about competing in any other disciplines, not successfully, anyway, see their try at dressage or previously Pat’s try as a traditional western trainer before he went on the road.
The Parelli system is good at what the Parelli system teaches, which is most not relevant to traditional training, but in some ways a rough, clueless approximation of it.
They are good at getting a segment of the public to enjoy their horses in their own unique way, that is what they are all about and are good at it.
[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8621832]
Maybe you should look up some of the accomplishments of the NH people that you feel only address the psychology. You will find world champions, world record holders, colt starting champions, reining champions, cutting, roping, etc champions. So yes, you are not being clear because you are judging anyone who utilizes NH principles on the very limited and narrow experiences you’ve had.
But anyway, this is turning into a “dressage is superior” thread. I’d take a brilliant cutting horse over a brilliant dressage horse all day any day. They are so much more naturally balanced and athletic.[/QUOTE]
No, no - I actually detest the look of contemporary competition dressage, which is exactly why I don’t do it any more.
I brought up accomplished trainers in Eventing and Dressage because these happen to be the disciplines practiced by the people I was debating with at the time.
If you think"NH" is actually more applicable to Western disciplines - a perfectly plausible idea - then say so. I don’t know much about that area myself, but I’m sure there are others who’d be eager to discuss it.
.
[QUOTE=Red Barn;8621868]
No, no - I actually detest the look of contemporary competition dressage, which is exactly why I don’t do it any more.
I brought up accomplished trainers in Eventing and Dessage because these happen to be the disciplines practiced by the people I was debating with at the time.
If you think that “NH” is actually more applicable to Western disciplines - a perfectly plausible idea - then say so. I don’t know much about that myself, but I’m sure there are others who be eager to discuss it.[/QUOTE]
The Parelli system has been discussed before here, one thread some years ago:
Don’t know what they are doing today.
[QUOTE=Red Barn;8621807]
You’re right - there’s not much. I found one video of a seemingly traditional dressage lesson, and this article describing seemingly traditional dressage pros in action: http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2015/03/tristan-tucker-takes-a-lesson-with-morten-thomsen/ Not a mention of “NH” anywhere, I’m afraid.
I also tried Googling variants of the phrase “natural dressage”, and all I found was Linda P riding badly, Karen Rolph riding bareback, and a lot of rather scary amateur videos of stick-wielding people madly frolicking with their horses:
This one is just . . . :eek:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcctMBE89YA[/QUOTE]
I couldn’t find much either. His clinics are always closed- no auditors and usually by invite only. Although I did find one article that mentioned some stuff and was about a clinic with him and Ingrid Klimke. I want to say it was on Eurodressage. I don’t think Morten ever mentions or specifically calls it NH- it’s just part of what he does. He’s got this crazy soft energy about him that just clicks so well with horses.
[QUOTE=tabula rashah;8621910]
. . . I don’t think Morten ever mentions or specifically calls it NH- it’s just part of what he does. He’s got this crazy soft energy about him that just clicks so well with horses.[/QUOTE]
Yep. I know what you mean. 
The thing is, I think a lot of the stuff currently touted as new, special, All Natural Magicalness really is, and always has been, “just part part of what [people] do”.
Bluey is quite right about that - and yes, I also think it matters very much what you call it. Lifting these things out of context, renaming, branding and exaggerating them to impress the newb sensibility, really is a disservice to the original body of knowledge, and tends to flatten and cheapen the whole idea of “horsemanship” and what it really entails.
Most of us would probably agree that the Parellis are the most egregious (and comical) example of this, but I don’t think the other pundits are a whole lot better - at least when it comes to the sports I know.
[QUOTE=Red Barn;8621950]
Yep. I know what you mean.
The thing is, I think a lot of the stuff currently touted as new, special, All Natural Magicalness really is, and always has been, “just part part of what [people] do”.
Bluey is quite right about that - and yes, I also think it matters very much what you call it. Lifting these things out of context, renaming, branding and exaggerating them to impress the newb sensibility, really is a disservice to the original body of knowledge, and tends to flatten and cheapen the whole idea of “horsemanship” and what it really entails.
Most of us would probably agree that the Parellis are the most egregious (and comical) example of this, but I don’t think the other pundits are a whole lot better - at least when it comes to the sports I know.[/QUOTE]
So are you lumping Buck Brannaman and his type in with Parelli and Clinton Anderson types? Because I see a big difference in the types of horses that result from each of these. I get what you are saying about the fitness aspect, but that is not what Buck or Warwick are trying to address in much of the videos you see. It’s more about getting a responsive, thinking horse, and even more so about getting the owner to soften cues, to work on a light feel, to show the horse how to do what you ask and give it time to figure it out. I don’t think those types think their stuff is majikal, whereas Parelli thinks he’s got the only key to the horse’s brain.
As Buck Brannaman says, he “helps horses with people problems”. The Dressage video you posted showing lateral work is great, but that’s not what Buck (using him as an example) is addressing. I can incorporate what I’ve learned from watching 7 Clinics and then do the same with your video. But before I get to your video, I need a horse that’s responsive to my leg and rein, and a horse that’s at a certain level of fitness.
There are also so many horses out there that have huge holes in their training, at a basic level, and people that don’t know what many of you know. BB and WS types can teach them a lot. Hopefully they will look to those kinds of people for guidance and not Parelli-types.
As far as the crouching, yuck, and unnecessary.
[QUOTE=Red Barn;8620990]
Wowser. I really appreciate the time everyone’s taken to explain their methods. Super interesting read.
:yes:
I’m trying very hard to understand all the points people have made, but I guess I’m still baffled by the idea that “NH” groundwork fills some void that other disciplines don’t cover.
It sounds like maybe you are speaking from a strictly english-riding standpoint, and someone who has had the benefit of good schooling throughout her riding career? “NH” fills the void that people who don’t ride english might not otherwise have access to (and that’s not to say that all english training DOES offer the hallowed ground of proper groundwork and all other disciplines do not). Perhaps someone lives out in the country and there are no good trainers around who teach either english or western, and really all the person wants to do is be able to move their own cattle around and go for a trail ride and not get killed. The “NH” guys have been very good at marketing themselves such that “their methods” are available to a wide range of people through the magic of DVDs and YouTube subscriptions.
The thing is, there’s groundwork and then there’s groundwork. I myself would look to somebody like Paul Belasik, maybe, or the OP’s friend Ingrid Klimke, if I wanted specific exercises and training plans to physically develop my horse. This kind of training is clearly their area of expertise, and anyone can see this in the horses they actually ride and train.
Again, you yourself even know the names of Paul Belasik and Ingrid Klimke. I bet if you surveyed all of the horse people in America, most would not have heard of these people - so how are they to even look them up to find out they exist? And what if they are not interested in that type of riding to begin with?
Mr Branamann, on the other hand, sounds like a very sweet, folksy guy, and I can see why he has heaps of followers. But a gymnastic wizard - not so much. Physically speaking, his horses look . . . okay. But nothing to write home about, certainly, and his teaching monologues barely address gymnastics anyhow.
I certainly wouldn’t call Buck a sweet and folksy guy. Nope, not at all. He’s not sweet in that he’ll kiss your ass and tell you everything you want to hear so that you’ll keep putting money in his pocket. He’s a straight shooter and if you’re doing something wrong he’ll tell you (and you might just get mad enough to leave, if you’re not the kind of person who can handle that). Folksy? That sounds as if he’s putting on a show and pretending to be who and what he is. That doesn’t fit the bill, either (at least for my observations - someone else can correct me if I’m wrong).
Gymnastic wizard I guess is in the eye of the beholder and what you need your horses to do. Do you want your horse to be able to handle any sort of situation and work a cow and turn back so fast your ponytail will spin and move from collection to extension in the blink of an eye and gallop out to full speed and then come back and stop and stand there calmly as if nothing happened? Sounds pretty gymnastic to me.
Regarding his teaching monologues addressing gymnastics . . . well, I agree he can go on and on and tell the same stories over and over again. I think the education is there for those who can see and hear. He’s one of those teachers who doesn’t give it away. You have to want it, to want to search for it, to put in the work to try and fail and try and fail and try again and then succeed. To me, his method is about teaching feel and timing. If you have those two things then gymnasticising the horse isn’t that difficult because your timing will be appropriate and your horse will feel of you such that it is like you are of one mind.
To someone just watching a clinic, it might look like you are watching the same boring stuff done by people of various levels and skill sets. For me having been there, the work that I’m getting done is all about the timing and feel that I mentioned, and the result is that my horse is becoming more mentally and physically flexible and in-tune with me. You may not see what we’re doing as other than some stupid half-circle exercise. I see and feel my horse such that I know when the next step will be the right one. I can set him up to improve his movement by asking this leg to move over or that leg to step under or a slight flexion this way or that. To someone else it looks like a boring circle. To me it is much more than that. I guess like perhaps riding on the 20-m circle?
And this is why I’m confused. It’s not that I have some weird aversion to groundwork per se; it’s just that I don’t see the purpose of that kind of groundwork for the averagely civilized riding horse. Wouldn’t it make more sense, if physical development for sport is the goal, to study the work of those who actually produce fit, happy, accomplished animals in one’s own chosen discipline?
But what if your chosen sport isn’t someone else’s goal? What if someone wants to be able to sort cows or hold a group of them in a defined area while someone else doctors one? What if your chosen sport is trail riding and you want to be able to safely go down the trail and handle any obstacle? Who says that one sport is better and more correct than any other? I’m pretty sure the “averagely civilized riding horse” in the US isn’t someone who shows on the A h/j circuit or is going for their bronze/silver/gold medal or wants to ride at Rolex. I’d say the averagely civilized riding horse is in someone’s back yard. And that’s who most of these trainers cater to, not someone who has a BNT available to them.
Here, for instance, is Belasik actually explaining the basic principles underpinning lateral work as a gymnastic tool:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja3QdD6uWys
The “NH” people never do this, either in discussing groundwork or ridden work. They tend, instead, to talk a lot about the horse’s psychology, and to catalog various kinds of behavioral or emotional resistances that might be in play - never dreaming, apparently, that the horse may simply be lacking in fitness or strength, or that the rider himself may be less than competent. (Any “NH” video of “disengaging the hindquarters” illustrates this perfectly, pretty much regardless of the practitioner.)
Sure, maybe. Maybe not. I’ve seen equally NH trainers who talk about developing a bridle horse (that probably no one here has ever heard of) as I’ve seen NH trainers who I wouldn’t let near my horse. Just like any other category of horse training, there are those who strive for the highest levels and always want to learn more, and there are those who are happy to take someone’s money and give them a song and dance.
Does that help to illustrate my question? I feel like I’m just not being clear.
.[/QUOTE]
Actually, no. I’m kind of confused about why you are confused. :lol:
I used the example of Buck above, because of all of the big name “NH” trainers out there, he’s the one I’ve done clinics with. I’ve also done clinics with other NH trainers, but most people have probably never heard of them.
Again, I hate the term NH. But I accept that is has a certain sort of meaning, so I’ll play along and use it. I think that GOOD NH training can help you get a really good connection and understanding with your horse. For example, I’ve seen Bryan Neubert do all sorts of bending and turning exercises with no reins and he also had a horse with his front legs up on a wooden bridge and side-passed along it. Why? Well, just to show what is possible, I presume. I’ve seen Dave Weaver take off his bridle and work a cow. Again, probably not something you would NEED to do, although anything is possible and it sure is a sight to see!
For me, I will take good teaching wherever I can get it, regardless of the discipline.
At Buck’s clinic I’ve seen dressage riders, h/j riders, eventers, endurance and trail riders, cowboys, western dressage, pretty much most non-gaited disciplines have been represented. Harry Whitney’s clinics are much smaller and the one I went to had mostly dressage and trail riders. Bryan Neubert’s were mostly western, with one or two h/j thrown in the mix. Of course it all depends on which clinic.
Have you heard of Ellen Eckstein? She is a dressage trainer who incorporates NH. She does clinics and gives very good lessons. She has a DVD that I found less than impressive, though.
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8622147]
Again, I hate the term NH. But I accept that is has a certain sort of meaning, so I’ll play along and use it. [/QUOTE]
Now wait a minute- I thought we all agreed to use them term “Tiger Hotdog”…
:lol:
I agree with your post and the sentiment that one should take good teaching wherever it can be found. There are often small things I can pick up or learn from new sources. Or I may notice that someone does something quite differently, and it provokes me to question my own method and justify it to myself. Reflecting on what I do and the choices I’ve made re riding and training my horse improves my ‘path’ and approach.
Also, although I do have great respect for time honored methods of horsemanship, there is no holy grail waiting to be discovered. I think what we know is refined and honed over time, which is why for me at least it is a continual journey and exploration.
OMG, Tiger Hotdog, I totally forgot! That should be someone’s username. In fact, if I see it come up, I might assume it is your alter!!! :lol:
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8622195]
OMG, Tiger Hotdog, I totally forgot! That should be someone’s username. In fact, if I see it come up, I might assume it is your alter!!! :lol:[/QUOTE]
OMG I need to grab that before someone else does…I don’t even care about that the identity behind it will be obvious.
Ok all, please carry on
THD
[QUOTE=Bluey;8621114]
Here is one of many, many videos out there on this “crouch”, for those that are not sure what is being talked about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRrH9UJsD4Y
It also helps to twirl your rope at the horse’s hind end, in case it is not minding your crouch, that will sure get it moving, especially if it was whacked over that before.[/QUOTE]
That looks a lot more like the horse untracking the human than the other way around. Not how I learned it at all.
Of course, it’s how I did it to start with :lol: (the position relative to the horse, I mean, not the crouching) because almost everyone does, but my teacher laughed at me and showed me how that was Conjure leading me by.
Girl should be in the center, not horse.
I don’t know if this girl really learned that from Chris Cox, or maybe from his video? It’s one of those moves that is easy to confuse if you don’t have a real live person handy to say “you’re doing that exactly wrong.” 
[QUOTE=pAin’t_Misbehavin’;8622289]
That looks a lot more like the horse untracking the human than the other way around. Not how I learned it at all.
Of course, it’s how I did it to start with :lol: (the position relative to the horse, I mean, not the crouching) because almost everyone does, but my teacher laughed at me and showed me how that was Conjure leading me by.
Girl should be in the center, not horse.
I don’t know if this girl really learned that from Chris Cox, or maybe from his video? It’s one of those moves that is easy to confuse if you don’t have a real live person handy to say “you’re doing that exactly wrong.” :D[/QUOTE]
Hah. Just this morning I had the chance to actually watch this “example” of disengaging the hind end. Uhmmmm. Yea, ^^^ those are my thoughts exactly.
I don’t ever start from that far away and act like walking up and (for the sake of this example) crouching is the same signal, for a disengage from a standstill. I would already be near the hind end and I drop a shoulder (very slight once its refined, and its the exact same way I ask for a stop while lunging… all I’m doing is having them disengage the hind end right… but from the center of the circle.) I’ve never crouched at my horse. I guess to put it simply, if I move into my horses space (shoulder or hip) they move away, very small ques for either. I’ve never had an issue with them moving away while blanketing, picking their feet, etc etc, once they know what I’m after. Really the only time I’m disengaging from the standstill once they’re started is when they are refusing to stand still, and then… fine you wanna tap dance around that’s great, lets work.
ETA: I have never called any of what I do NH… it’s just horsemanship. And I strongly dislike Parelli (nothing about horse training should be called a game), have never seen anything I loved from CA… or anyone who feels the need to tell people they must purchase certain brand items/gadgets to be effective. Dressage whip and a plastic garbage bag? Any old halter and a 13’ lead? You own a regular $15 lunge whip? Fantastic.
These are interesting points, so I’ll address them in some detail, if that’s okay.
[QUOTE=cloudy18;8622079]
So are you lumping Buck Brannaman and his type in with Parelli and Clinton Anderson types? Because I see a big difference in the types of horses that result from each of these. [/QUOTE]
Maybe that’s so. I’m just going on the various pundit videos and what they actually contain. The “NH” trained horses I’ve worked with or observed in real life tended to have retraining issues regardless of preferred pundit, but, in thinking about this, I’m really trying to separate previous handler error from theoretical premise.
Seems fair, right?
I get what you are saying about the fitness aspect, but that is not what Buck or Warwick are trying to address in much of the videos you see. It’s more about getting a responsive, thinking horse, and even more so about getting the owner to soften cues, to work on a light feel, to show the horse how to do what you ask and give it time to figure it out. I don’t think those types think their stuff is majikal, whereas Parelli thinks he’s got the only key to the horse’s brain.
Up to a point, I get that, and I agree.
Mr B seems to be constantly explaining that his aim is to “give the horse a good deal”, and that he doesn’t like to hit them “if he doesn’t have to”. I can see exactly why a person might gravitate toward this kind of plain speaking, especially if s/he’s coming from a background that cowboys up and beats down on every conceivable problem.
Other than his choice in chaps, which is completely inexplicable to me, I think I understand the guy’s basic appeal fairly well.
As Buck Brannaman says, he “helps horses with people problems”. The Dressage video you posted showing lateral work is great, but that’s not what Buck (using him as an example) is addressing. I can incorporate what I’ve learned from watching 7 Clinics and then do the same with your video. But before I get to your video, I need a horse that’s responsive to my leg and rein, and a horse that’s at a certain level of fitness.
I get that too. The question is whether Mr B’s methods would actually accomplish this end, or whether they’d undermine it.
For instance, I posted the Belasik video in response to a particular post in which the OP explained that she was an Eventer, and that she used Brannaman’s techniques for gymnastic purposes specifically. She even mentioned his Half Circle Exercise, which I then looked up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmKq3h9gxFY
Okay.
The OP said she did this exercise in a better posture than is shown here, but I didn’t (and still don’t) understand this. The whole purpose of this exercise appears to be to teach the horse to turn and pass in front of the handler smoothly and politely, which is fine - except that the horse is simultaneously being trained to flinch away from contact with the line and to hollow into every turn. I don’t see how you could avoid this, really, as it appears to be inherent to the exercise.
Granted, a cowgirl like Pocket Pony might not care about this one bit, and I do respect that. But I would’ve thought that a person doing dressage and jumping would care very much, since a horse that hollows into the aids and evades contact is pretty much the last thing you’d want under any circumstances.
Do you see where I’m going with this?
I’m quite ready to believe that Brannaman is great for Western disciplines if Western riders tell me that that’s so. But if one’s not a Western rider, then I really have to wonder how on earth his methods improve on the various volte in-hand exercises that traditional “English” disciplines use, and for which there are simple and clear gymnastic explanations available all over the place.
If Belasik’s in-hand work is too high-falutin, why not try something like Cherry Hill’s, which is both beginner friendly and discipline specific? This book seems to be available on every tack website that has a book section, as well as on Amazon, so it’s not like it’s hard to find.
http://www.amazon.com/Longeing-Lining-Exercises-English-Western/dp/0876050461
There are also so many horses out there that have huge holes in their training, at a basic level, and people that don’t know what many of you know. BB and WS types can teach them a lot. Hopefully they will look to those kinds of people for guidance and not Parelli-types.
Hey, I totally agree: the Parellis are in a class by themselves.
And yes - I’m sure we’ve all seen very fancy horses at very fancy barns with horrible manners and craptastic attitudes. No doubt about it. But I think - in fact I’m sure - that this is the fault of specific handlers, and not of the traditional equestrian disciplines per se.
I know this because I learned to ride long before any of these “NH” guys were on anybody’s radar, and I know that training in ordinary “English” “horsemanship” was much more complete back then. It included everything from pasture management and husbandry to riding and handling techniques, and its goal was produce good, all around horsemen. The loss of this traditional base is very sad, I agree, but I honestly don’t see how these YouTube cowboys are doing anything to fix this in anybody’s discipline, since their definition of “horsemanship” is necessarily extremely limited to begin with.
As far as the crouching, yuck, and unnecessary.
:yes: Plus it looks incredibly stupid.
.
And is also a good spot to get kicked in the head. Maybe a lost Darwin opportunity…
:lol: Good point.
