Groundwork: signal to yield hindquarters

[pezk]

"I know this because I learned to ride long before any of these “NH” guys were on anybody’s radar, and I know that training in ordinary “English” “horsemanship” was much more complete back then. It included everything from pasture management and husbandry to riding and handling techniques, and its goal was produce good, all around horsemen. The loss of this traditional base is very sad, I agree, but I honestly don’t see how these YouTube cowboys are doing anything to fix this in anybody’s discipline, since their definition of “horsemanship” is necessarily extremely limited to begin with. "

I’m an English rider too. Have been for 30 yrs. Took lessons from top international dressage riders when I was younger. What you are missing is that traditional English techniques don’t work for every horse. They don’t. I now own an opinionated, smart, mare who is very agreeable as long as you are doing what she wants to do. There wasn’t any English instructor who could help me with this mare. Their answer was get rid of the mare. That’s no answer. It’s a huge cop out for instructors who don’t know how to think outside of a box.
Then a good eventing instructor introduced me to a NH instructor who has made all the difference in the world. Those NH techniques that you poo poo have worked wonders with this mare. I’m now a firm believer esp for some horses. One size does not fit all and I suggest you open your mind to other possibilities.

[Pocket_Pony]

@Red Barn;8623253

Other than his choice in chaps, which is completely inexplicable to me, I think I understand the guy’s basic appeal fairly well.

:lol: Wow, what’s wrong with his chaps?

The whole purpose of this exercise appears to be to teach the horse to turn and pass in front of the handler smoothly and politely, which is fine - except that the horse is simultaneously being trained to flinch away from contact with the line and to hollow into every turn. [U]I don’t see how you could avoid this, really, as it appears to be inherent to the exercise.

[/U]In the beginning this could be a result of the exercise (the flinching), but that is not the goal. The goal is to get the horse to move away from pressure. Just like if you’re first teaching a horse to move the bum over. At first, they might move into your hand, not away from it. The goal is to teach them to move away from the pressure. If they are flinching in the beginning, that doesn’t bother me because they are in a phase of not quite understanding what is going on. If you teach it and do it well, then you can just step into them or direct your energy to them or ask them to move over or use whatever cue you choose and they will bend and step over and away from you. You know, like when you put your leg on they will move forward and/or over. But the first time you do that, they may not know what the heck you want from them. Flinching is not the goal.

Granted, a cowgirl like Pocket Pony might not care about this one bit, and I do respect that. But I would’ve thought that a person doing dressage and jumping would care very much, since a horse that hollows into the aids and evades contact is pretty much the last thing you’d want under any circumstances.

Now I have to question if you’re reading for comprehension or being intentionally obtuse. While I’ve always wanted to be a cowgirl, I am by no means such. And if you read my other posts, you’d know that and what my goals are with my horse. :lol:

Do you see where I’m going with this?

I do understand what you are saying, and there is certainly value in learning other types of ground work (which I do with my horses - we do SI, HI, LY, TOF, TOH, transitions, circles, backing, etc.) but I guess I’m just stuck on your insistence that what you know is the only way to produce a finished horse or an athletic horse or whatever kind of horse you want. As I mentioned, I’m open to any and all training that is good, no matter what kind of “package” it comes in. If you have something that works for you and your horses, then great. Just because you don’t see value in another type of program doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have value for someone else.

I’m quite ready to believe that Brannaman is great for Western disciplines if Western riders tell me that that’s so. But if one’s not a Western rider, then I really have to wonder how on earth his methods improve on the various volte in-hand exercises that traditional “English” disciplines use, and for which there are simple and clear gymnastic explanations available all over the place.

Like I mentioned, there are MANY h/j riders who go to Buck for help and I used to know an A h/j trainer (in addition to the dressage trainer I mentioned earlier) who used “NH” methodology in her program and had a barn full of happy and successful horses and riders.

I know this because I learned to ride long before any of these “NH” guys were on anybody’s radar, and I know that training in ordinary “English” “horsemanship” was much more complete back then. It included everything from pasture management and husbandry to riding and handling techniques, and its goal was produce good, all around horsemen. The loss of this traditional base is very sad, I agree, but I honestly don’t see how these YouTube cowboys are doing anything to fix this in anybody’s discipline, since their definition of “horsemanship” is necessarily extremely limited to begin with.

Well good for you! So did I. So what?

I’m getting the feeling that you are at the point where you are interested in arguing for arguing’s sake if you aren’t interested in seeing the value in what other disciplines or programs or techniques have to offer. If you have happy horses that work within your defined program, then good for you. Some don’t and choose to find other paths.

Peace out!

[Red_Barn]

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8623426]
Wow, what’s wrong with his chaps? [/QUOTE]
Do you really think a person with this body type should be drawing extra attention to the hip area?

http://horsemansgazette.com/horsemans-gazette-issue-2/half-circle-exercise-with-buck-brannaman.html

I think not. I think a smooth line, sans waist fringe, would be much more flattering.

Beyond that, whatever. If you don’t enjoy debating the question in detail, then don’t.

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8621863]
Well, you need to mention that no one that only worked in Parelli stuff ever became a champion at any other.

They either were proficient before they investigated that crazy system, or moved on to learn thru traditional trainers in their discipline.

Parelli is not about competing in any other disciplines, not successfully, anyway, see their try at dressage or previously Pat’s try as a traditional western trainer before he went on the road.

The Parelli system is good at what the Parelli system teaches, which is most not relevant to traditional training, but in some ways a rough, clueless approximation of it.
They are good at getting a segment of the public to enjoy their horses in their own unique way, that is what they are all about and are good at it.[/QUOTE]

That is absolutely true. Many professionals, such as the O’Conners, or Leon Harrold, both dominate world champions in their field long before they ever knew of Pat, somewhere along the way thought that an association with Pat, who everyone knows by now, would be a good thing for their business. A symbiotic relationship. But irks me how dishonest it was, for the O’Conners to do a demonstration at one of Pat’s events, and have it look like it was because of their association and adherence to his methods. Pat never had the talent to be those people, so using them to promote for him is the next best thing.

[Caol_Ila]

The crouching maneuver in that video is weird. I wasn’t even aware that it was a thing. It doesn’t look very much like the trainer is an alpha mare snaking her head, but rather looks to me like the trainer is desperate for a pee. And the horse has just learned the crazy human’s bizarre cues. Anyway, I thought some researchers debunked a lot of that ‘alpha horse’ BS when they showed you can get horses to join-up with little remote controlled cars.

I teach horses to do the half circle thing. I also practice it every day. The paddocks have electric rope and you have to grab the plastic handle, unhook the rope to get the horse through the gate, then rehook it. Horse leads past, goes to the end of the lead, then as soon as she feels the halter, she brings her inside hind leg under and turns to face me. It’s a smooth maneuver that greatly reduces the risk of me accidentally zapping her with the electric fence. No crouching needed.

Horses appreciate it when it has a point.

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8622147]
Actually, no. I’m kind of confused about why you are confused. :lol:

I used the example of Buck above, because of all of the big name “NH” trainers out there, he’s the one I’ve done clinics with. I’ve also done clinics with other NH trainers, but most people have probably never heard of them.

Again, I hate the term NH. But I accept that is has a certain sort of meaning, so I’ll play along and use it. I think that GOOD NH training can help you get a really good connection and understanding with your horse. For example, I’ve seen Bryan Neubert do all sorts of bending and turning exercises with no reins and he also had a horse with his front legs up on a wooden bridge and side-passed along it. Why? Well, just to show what is possible, I presume. I’ve seen Dave Weaver take off his bridle and work a cow. Again, probably not something you would NEED to do, although anything is possible and it sure is a sight to see!

For me, I will take good teaching wherever I can get it, regardless of the discipline.

At Buck’s clinic I’ve seen dressage riders, h/j riders, eventers, endurance and trail riders, cowboys, western dressage, pretty much most non-gaited disciplines have been represented. Harry Whitney’s clinics are much smaller and the one I went to had mostly dressage and trail riders. Bryan Neubert’s were mostly western, with one or two h/j thrown in the mix. Of course it all depends on which clinic.

Have you heard of Ellen Eckstein? She is a dressage trainer who incorporates NH. She does clinics and gives very good lessons. She has a DVD that I found less than impressive, though.[/QUOTE]

So go to Websters and enter Voice of Reason an up comes pocket Pony? yup, guess so!