Two pictures where the contact isn’t heavy, out of how many…
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Well that all depends on the nature of the pressure, doesn’t it?
Constant contact of a soft and communicative nature is completely different to someone hanging onto a horse’s mouth as though the horse is the speed boat and they are the water skier.
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Tell me you haven’t ridden REALLY hot horses, without telling me…
Leg on the hot ones, leg off the dull ones…
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It’s not snark, and you’ve made a lot of comments how signal riding is better for the horse than dressage.
Your “temporary touch” is my “jabbed unexpectedly in the mouth and sides by direct contact with a shank bit and pointy spurs” Just because YOU think it’s what the horse prefers doesn’t mean it is actually what the horse prefers.
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Oh I have. I ride Saddlebreds & Arabians - spicy ones. Very very hot. I tend not to enjoy the phlegmatic type.
I have not - that was entirely your interpretation.
What I was saying - and REPEATEDLY saying - was that the nature of what we do with horses in terms of pressure does not make SENSE to me when you look at long and constant pressure vs intermittent pressure. I was examining the difference between what we do when we teach groundwork and what we do when we ride. And I was saying that horses DO seem to prefer intermittent touch, and that long touches tend to desensitize them.
But whatever - you seem intent on interpreting things a specific way, and I wish you very well.
Sorry. Going to have to disagree with you on this. I can put any horse on the bit. Any horse that hasn’t been forced to back off the contact, such as a Western Pleasure horse. I can get those guys to accept contact, too, but it takes a little longer and more finesse.
And I’ve yet to have one invent a creative (or not) way of getting around it. Lungeing a horse in sidereins is entirely different than asking a horse to come through under saddle. An untrained horse is just that, untrained. They have to be shown that seeking the contact is the optimum way to balance with a rider up. A horse at liberty won’t go around in a “frame.” He’ll canter with his head in the air and bent to the outside of whichever lead he is on. That’s the best way to maintain his balance at liberty. With a rider up, all bets are off and the rider must facilitate the new round, equal into both sides, balance.
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Agreed - what I was talking about was the person who said the horse has to take the contact themselves. A green one won’t - they do need to be shown.
So I looked at the doma vaquero video. The horse is being ridden on clear contact in the curb through a series of precision moves and the rider has loose legs deliberately, and may or may not be using light spur touches as directional cues. But I don’t honestly see jabbing in any sense. It’s a mix of what we consider dressage and reining moves, and the horse is being kept super collected for maximum mobility. It’s not how we ride a jumper or even a dressage horse. Different goals.
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Take a look again at the beginning walk around the arena before the salute. The knees are away from the horse. The spur, otoh, poke poke poke every freaking step. :39 or so gives a good view of that. That, which alternates with straight up sticking the spur in and leaving it there throughout, along with the lovely 
sliding stop at the end (the others are not as bad, but you can still see the horse ramming its snout to its chest to reduce the impact of the hands) is enough to put me off this style of riding 
Lovely horse though.
That’s too bad, here’s a lovelier version. https://youtu.be/BXPbAKdXMg4
Sliding stops are a major part of many disciplines. I don’t love them, but I also don’t make gag faces at any discipline.
I was trying to find a video of Pedro Torres doing Doma which I know I’ve seen - it’s really lovely riding. He’s pretty impressive doing WE as well.
I just figured out what you may be interpreting as sticking the spur in - his heels are up.
That’s actually incorrect - In Doma Vaquera they ride with their heels up. They are NOT jabbing with the spur.
Did you even look at that poor horse with its mouth wide open and head flung in the air trying to avoid the bit in that final stop? It’s not about the sliding stop as a thing. It’s about how those sliding stops are being ridden. It’s appalling and deserves many gag faces. PLEASE go and look at that video again, especially at that final sliding halt. If you don’t want to make a gag face, then there’s your answer - it’s all about theory to you and not about the practicality of the way horses are ridden, and that’s a damned shame.
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I do not have a problem with heels being up, down, or level. I have a problem with a “signal” being given with the spur every damned step of the ride. That is the furthest thing from the horse having autonomy (your term from above) that you can get in riding.
Again, I don’t like sliding stops. There are some nice ones without a mouth open. I worry about their hocks. This is something I do feel semi-strongly about.
At the same time, I also don’t make gag faces when horses are ridden in Rollkur or brand all of Dressage with a gag face. I don’t make gag faces at people who use draws incorrectly or put horses in tight side reins. I don’t LIKE any of it, but I don’t make gag faces at the DISCIPLINE.
Big difference.
Next time I post anything, I’ll be sure to watch it on a very large screen and analyze every step of the ride. I know you guys love when people do that with competition dressage - you know, analyze moments and say they are horrible, when you know it’s a moment in time.
Again, take a look at the John St. Ryan video, which is a much better representation. My apologies for posting something I had not watched closely on a large screen.
What you are saying is a lift of the rein, (talking about a horse with some training) will feel the rein lift, recognize it as a cue or part of a cue and respond. This is a lovely goal.
The video you posted shows a rein being lifted, lifted with considerable jiggle, to the point the shank moves, constantly, lift-jiggle-relax-lift-shake-relax-lift jigggggllllleee-relax, each relax is very momentary. reminds me of fingers drumming on a table, I would much prefer a steady hand.
If this is what looks good to you, as you say you do you. I would really like to see this ride with the tail unbound to see just how much wringing there is or isn’t.
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Maybe you should. Because that would show a little more respect for the horse and less respect for the assholes that do such things.
Furthermore, please read for comprehension. That gag face was for that particularly repulsive sliding stop. If you don’t find that particular stop repulsive, you have some issues with respect of the animals we ask to work so hard for us in ANY discipline. That animal was clearly in pain and trying to avoid further pain.
No - it was an example of Doma. Unfortunately there aren’t a ton of examples on the web - so I just picked one that looked reasonable on a mobile device late at night.
I posted a better representation today in response to the recommendation to look at it more closely, which I did since I had my laptop today and not my phone.
This is not how I ride, no - I don’t wear spurs at present, have never needed them. I don’t like sliding stops, so we don’t practice that part of the test. I ride a very forward and light horse.
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