I’m going to say again - I’m sorry I posted it. Will look closer next time, mea culpa. Please look to the much nicer ride by John St. Ryan. I was looking for one of his when I posted that, but a lot of his stuff is the slower work, so I was trying to find something quickly. Pedro Torres also has some lovely ones but I can’t find those. Some of the Spanish riders are rougher, but not all.
And you’re right - I should have noted that the gag face was strictly about the sliding stop. It appeared that you were saying that “if this is doma vaquera then the whole thing was horrible”. Perhaps that’s not what you were saying, I might have misinterpreted.
It also seems like you are attributing something to me that I never ever said - I never threw stones at dressage. I tried to understand the nature of constant pressure vs intermittent pressure, and was reasoning my way through the idea that that (in everything else) desensitizes a horse.
I respect the horse just fine - but I’m not cool with throwing sticks at people. There’s plenty I don’t LIKE about what others do with horses. But I’m sure there are people who don’t even believe we should ride them, and I’d prefer they don’t throw stones at me.
What I know about Doma Vaquera work could be written on the back of a postage stamp, but I have some recollection of reading that it was ridden in a very high port bit (is that a spade bit? I don’t know the terminology. I’m not from 'round here!) Is that actually the case?
If so, then the hands would surely have to be very quiet and very subtle not to be hitting the roof of the mouth of the horse with every movement. The thought of that gives me the willies far more than riding a horse on correct contact in a double-jointed snaffle or low port curb.
And getting the horse, any horse, to take a correct contact is a knack. Once you’ve cracked it, it really isn’t that hard and doesn’t involve hauling on the horse’s mouth.
They may have a small-medium port, but they are very typically just a curb, but with loose rings at the bottom of them. Some of them are quite long yes.
I didn’t. I don’t think that’s fair when people do that. I see it all the time. I don’t like it. That’s what I’m saying.
And I didn’t say that it’s moments in time. Good lord. You are looking for a fight.
What I was trying to explain was that I don’t judge ALL by what ONE does. And there are plenty of “fully abusive” rides in competition dressage. Anky has been debated ad nauseam. Bloody mouths - holes rubbed or poked in sides. I mean, come on, dressage as a discipline isn’t any cleaner than any other.
I think that ^^ summarizes the error in your thinking. Contact is not “pressure.” I understand well the theory behind release of pressure as a reward. But, again, putting a horse on the bit through contact is not pressure. It just isn’t. Anymore than having a person sitting on his back is pressure.
I for one, never took you to be disparaging dressage, only that you were trying to understand the reasoning behind what you take to be continuous unrelieved pressure on the horse. If that was the case, that riding a horse on contact is continuous pressure, then wouldn’t it make sense that eventually the horse would ignore the contact and just do whatever he wants with his head and neck? I submit that the answer to that is yes. If there is no reward for responding correctly to the rider’s aids, then no training is happening.
That is what I was trying to understand. Thank you. I’m just struggling to grok it (for lack of a better term). And I’ve even done it! I’ve heard all the rationale, and the analogies, I’ve read the books and I’ve ridden horses on contact, but I’m still missing some vital component in my head
If letting the reins go forward is throwing them away, then how is it not constant pressure (albeit harder and less hard at times). The study linked above by Clayton said that it was between 1 and 4 lbs of consistent pressure. It does seem like 4 lbs -> 1 lb would be a reward, but 1 lb is not insignificant. And yes - I’d agree - how does the horse NOT just ignore it?
But, again - maybe I’m missing it. 100% open to the idea that I’m missing it. And maybe Clayton’s study was using poor dressage riders. Open to THAT too. Total possibility
But the doma vacquero horse is being ridden on clear contact in the curb. The pressure doesn’t let up. I don’t see the conceptual.difference between that and dressage.
I think what you are missing is that the steady contact is only a piece of the entire picture. Leg and seat are continuously in play to regulate the contact. I’m not keen on measures of # of pounds in the hands with contact. Mostly because it varies from horse to horse, rider to rider, and level of training. That is the biggest issue I have with “The Cube” device that is supposed to train riders’ hands, Ugh. It’s MUCH too heavy. (I use a sippy cup like Carl Hester, even though I maintain that I thought of it first, LOL). Would you put a weight amount on holding hands with someone? I think you might find there were more pounds in your hand than you realized. But you would also feel that you could lighten up without letting go of the other’s hand entirely. I wish I was near you geographically (no clue where you might reside). I would come and demonstrate to you in a way that I think would answer your questions.
I’m in the center of the country - we can PM if you think you’re anywhere close, and I’m happy to share my location I won’t out myself on the board since clearly I’ve rubbed some people the wrong way unintentionally, but really am happy to speak one on one.
I bought one of those darned cubes - rode with it once and decided never again. It made my hands feel wooden. And yes - very very heavy. I use it now with people on the ground to learn how to keep their hands together and to help them turn without their hands (if that makes any sense), but I wouldn’t advocate for riding with it. I also use it to work out, since I’m recovering from surgery.
I like the sippy cup idea - didn’t see that from Hester, but routinely ride with a champagne glass in each hand (plastic of course) as a “fun competition” at the barn. I’d love to hear more about the sippy cup!
In holding hands with someone there are definitely times where one is directing the other (that’s usually when I tell my spouse to quit pulling on me laughing KIDDING) and there are more pounds of pressure. But I also don’t typically analyze the holding of a hand or think about it theoretically because I’m communicating with an animal that understands me natively and is more like me. Horses aren’t, and can’t necessarily understand my handholding or guiding as “friendly”. Not naturally.
I think this is where you are stuck. It takes a very long time for a rider to learn correct contact. I am talking months to years. What you felt was probably not correct contact. It cannot be learned from books or videos. You need eyes on the ground with a great instructor with frequent lessons.
There is front to back contact which is incorrect and where you are fixated about how much weight is on the reins.
There is back to front contact which is a communication and no thoughts about how much weight in the reins as it is not even thought about. As there is no pulling on the reins.
I like to start my babies ground driving in a bitless, but I have since switched to using a cavesson (I use the side rings) for the reason you mentioned–the bitless would get stuck and not release. I really like the Kieffer ultrasoft cavesson and it’s great because they can carry a bit (I like to start in a plastic dogbone bit–the Sprenger Duo) while you are driving off the cavesson.
I don’t remember where I got my cavesson but it is soft but clear. It has 3 rings, which I like, because I can longe then transition to the sides I generally will do that if I’m starting one from scratch, and I alternate with the bosal.
I also don’t do the snaffle stage that some of the bridle horse people do. I do nose and eventually curb if one is going to go to the curb or I land on snaffle if one is not going to end up in the curb.
Think of it as 2 ballroom dancers. The rider is the leader. The horse is the follower. From a quick scan of Wiki, “Dancers take cues through physical connection, with the follower using it to communicate feedback to the leader just as the leader uses it to suggest moves to the follower.”
The constant, elastic contact between a horse and rider allows communication to flow quickly and easily both ways with as subtle cues as possible.
The part that I am struggling with is this (and I’ll try to be very clear since I haven’t been in the past).
Horse training 101 is “if you want the horse to ignore something, keep it constant”.
Yes, leg on for a hot horse, but you’re doing that because you don’t want them to react so strongly to the leg - so you do want them to a degree to be slightly dulled to it.
Yes, the girth stays on, but you want the horse to ignore that. If you poked the horse in the side with the spur and pressed constantly they would eventually (if they didn’t throw you) ignore you completely. Horses are capable of ignoring a great deal, including numbing their mouths by intentionally pulling as school horses in order to further ignore an aid.
I do understand the concept that the horse is making the contact, and I do understand that you’re pushing forward into contact. I get all of that too. But the horse must be taught to rest (we can debate how much resting…but it’s still resting) on the hand with his/her mouth.
I understand the vibrations of the rein (or egg-beating, sponging, or other analogies - but not see-sawing), which makes the horse (generally speaking) soften, and “seek” the bit.
But I don’t understand why that occurs knowing that it’s contrary to horse training 101 which says “if you want a horse to ignore an aid, keep applying it”.
Now - what I will say is that perhaps the Hilary Clayton study which said that there is 1-4 lbs of pressure on average in a dressage horse on contact was being done with “less skilled than average” riders
If indeed the concept is, keep it light enough so that it can be used instantly but not constant, then I CAN reconcile it a bit better. To use the holding hands analogy, if it’s more like when you’re holding hands with your spouse but you’re not really touching, you’re just sort of hovering (ok, that was clearer in my head than my words) then it’s entirely the same as signal, and the vibrations of the rein are just a smaller release than the signal release.
I hope that makes sense - been having a major tech vendor crisis at work for the last few days so my brain is a bit addled!
I think you’re struggling too hard to see something in absolute black and white when it’s not.
If a horse has someone pulling on it to the point where it can lean, yes, absolutely, it’s going to lean, pull, or otherwise go numb to the discomfort. Constant contact is not that.
If we look at legs that hug a hot horse, it’s just enough to be a consistent comfort (like hand holding) that allows us to add a little more without shocking the shit out of the horse. It’s a calming effect. We do the reverse - as little leg as possible on phlegmatic horses so they do get a little ‘jolt’ when we ask a little more.
And it’s the same for nagging whether it’s mouth or sides - constant nagging can be tuned out, or make a horse nuts, but usually they end up tuning out in the long term, just as people can tune out (or flip shit lol) over incessant nagging.
Yes and no. When you’re holding hands with your spouse (or whoever) you ARE touching. You are not asking anything, you’re just comfortably hanging out because it’s nice to have physical attachment. When one person or the other gives a little squeeze or makes a slight indication of a change of direction, it is not tuned out nor is it a shock to the receiver, it’s just an expansion of the communication that is already in place by virtue of touching. If one of the hand holders was constantly squeezing and releasing or gripping tightly, then yup, the other person would either put an end to the hand holding or just tune out completely.
