Groundwork styles

[stryder]

I don’t push into contact. I’m right “there”, just as my foot is right “there” on the gas pedal. I notice it more after I’ve driven the truck for a couple days, and then hop into the car. Car is more sensitive, and if I have weight in my foot, it’s going to surge. My foot kinda feathers on and off, depending on how fast I want to take off, or go.

When I first started riding, things were more black and white, and most contact was heavier. Now I’ve developed a much finer scale. There’s a very fine line between maintaining touch, and abandonment. The hand, and my legs, need to work together. If I’m creating a small opening for the horse to flow into, I need my legs to agree. One is positional, and one is impulsive. The horse flows into that opening because it’s easier; the path is not blocked.

I’m not squeezing all the time with my legs, and I try to make sure I’m not pulling. The easiest way to know is, if the pressure suddenly lightens, my hand doesn’t move.

[Alterration]

@sascha

Yes and no. When you’re holding hands with your spouse (or whoever) you ARE touching. You are not asking anything, you’re just comfortably hanging out because it’s nice to have physical attachment. When one person or the other gives a little squeeze or makes a slight indication of a change of direction, it is not tuned out nor is it a shock to the receiver, it’s just an expansion of the communication that is already in place by virtue of touching. If one of the hand holders was constantly squeezing and releasing or gripping tightly, then yup, the other person would either put an end to the hand holding or just tune out completely.

I guess I shouldn’t have said spouse haha! I was just thinking of the way my husband and I hold hands, which is often rather hovery. I mean, sure there are squeezes and times we hold more closely, but a lot of times it’s barely touching - it’s close to that feeling when you’re touching but not touching your hands together (I think you mentioned that, but this thread is so darned long, I can’t keep everyone straight anymore - sorry!). If we get out of sync walking, our hands will “bump” (gently, but still bump) but otherwise they are very hovery. Maybe we’re weird! Maybe that’s why the analogy has never quite worked for me.

I don’t think constant contact is like the school horse - I hope that wasn’t what came across - it was just an analogy for how dead a horse can get, and how they can even manipulate us into deadness.

You’ve used the analogy of comforting touch, which sounds very nice - to expand on that…the philosophical question is - does the horse find a constant touch no matter where it is - comforting? They don’t tend to touch each other quite like that - there’s no holding hands with other horses. They touch each other or move each other with short bursts of contact. Even the mutual grooming isn’t “constant” and they rarely reassure each other with touch quite the same way humans do.

I know we generally stroke and pat our horses, but that is our construct - is it theirs?

It’s ok that we teach them that is what those things mean (again, no sticks thrown - just working the concept through) - if not, it’s a concept we have to teach them vs working with the nature of how they talk to each other.

Maybe that’s where I’m getting stopped?

[Alterration]

@stryder

I don’t push into contact. I’m right “there”, just as my foot is right “there” on the gas pedal. I notice it more after I’ve driven the truck for a couple days, and then hop into the car. Car is more sensitive, and if I have weight in my foot, it’s going to surge. My foot kinda feathers on and off, depending on how fast I want to take off, or go.

That sounds very much closer to what I understand as signal when I’ve ridden this way in the hunter ring. It sounds like we’re talking about the same thing - just using different words. I do like the car analogy because I’m a feathery driver, particularly with my truck, which if you’re not careful will find you down the road at 80mph before you know it So it is a very light “I’m not touching, but will touch when I need to”.

Signal isn’t bumping - not like you may have seen watching the western pleasure warmup rings or other similarly frightening things. But it is similarly soft (normally) - YMMV of course - despite the rein being LESS taut. It is not swinging like a western pleasure horse.

In the two-rein, you don’t want the curb strap to engage, that would be too much signal and being used as leverage. A spade isn’t used as a leverage bit, and anyone who does that IS abusive. (how’s that for black and white)

You want the spade to just lift off the tongue slightly - to begin to move - like touching the gas pedal slightly. You don’t want to have to move your hand to your eyeballs - there’s not that much slack in the rein, but there’s enough play that you might not accidentally bump the mouth or give an inadvertent squeeze.

So anyway - maybe we’re just using different words to describe the same thing. If that’s the case, I DO understand it.

[Alterration]

I just shared this with @Mondo privately, but I’m sharing this here @sascha & @stryder because I think this maybe clarifies what I’m stuck on.

I really do appreciate your efforts to help me understand and talk through it. It’s also possible that it’s a linguistic issue - I tend to be obnoxiously literal (I’m a programmer, it’s in our nature) so I think that’s why some of the more esoteric explanations evade my grasp.

Another example of where I get stuck with concepts like that that might be useful, I know that massaging the mouth (milking the reins, eggbeating lightly, sponging, vibrating…whatever analogy people use) will cause a horse to soften into the rein…but why? Is it solely the trained mechanism that says “yield to this rein”? Is it the signal that says “yield here”?

Or is there something else that a horse inherently connects from his jaw to his topline?

I’ve also read/heard/experienced - that the relaxation of the jaw is connected to the lowering of the head - is THAT the mechanism? If so - why? Why does it work?

I feel like I have this biomechanics “understanding” and this training “understanding” and they aren’t meeting. They just kind of bonk into each other like two circles that want to make a Venn diagram but aren’t quite

[stryder]

@Alterration

Is it solely the trained mechanism that says “yield to this rein”? Is it the signal that says “yield here”?

I think it draws the horse’s attention that it is safe to relax. The contact is very light and inquisitive. It feels like hands in heavy cream, and when we’re going well, I think I can feel his tongue, which feels like velvet.

@Alterration

I’ve also read/heard/experienced - that the relaxation of the jaw is connected to the lowering of the head - is THAT the mechanism? If so - why? Why does it work?

For me, relaxing the jaw leads to softening the poll. When that happens, I have him. He’s listening closely. I’m going with him, and he’s going with me. It’s a cycle of energy through both of us.

[Alterration]

@stryder

For me, relaxing the jaw leads to softening the poll. When that happens, I have him. He’s listening closely. I’m going with him, and he’s going with me. It’s a cycle of energy through both of us.

Ok - I get this as well.

So if the jaw yields the poll, and the poll yields the horse - why is that? Is it that it’s the last of the potential brace?

If so - that’s also similar to signal. In the signal case (of a spade bit horse), the jaw is kept relaxed because the cricket is there for the horse to play with with his tongue, and the spoon rests on the tongue, keeping it from poking anywhere or contacting the bars. The horse picks it up, and plays with it. This keeps the jaw relaxed, which also relaxes the poll. In the bosal, you have to take a more active role, asking for a softening, and releasing, but the horse themselves doesn’t soften the jaw with their mouths because there isn’t anything in it to brace against. And it’s not tight - you seek to make it so that the horse is as comfortable as they are in nature - the bosal is kind of like riding them in a slightly clearer halter.

I hope I’m making some sense Having a heck of a time.

[stryder]

I’m also a little familiar with crickets and western bits. Some of my experience is that the horse is rolling away, tense as can be. A bunch of slobber is produced, which is not what we’re looking for.

I understand that your experience may be different, and I respect that. But consequently, I can’t completely agree with you, because I don’t know if our experiences are the same.

[Alterration]

@stryder

I’m also a little familiar with crickets and western bits. Some of my experience is that the horse is rolling away, tense as can be. A bunch of slobber is produced, which is not what we’re looking for.

I understand that your experience may be different, and I respect that. But consequently, I can’t completely agree with you, because I don’t know if our experiences are the same.

No - I think it’s quite different. There should be no slobber, that would indicate a tense horse. A soft damp mouth yes, a slobbery one no.

A bridle horse is not a “normal” western horse, and it’s not a reining horse. I DO think sometimes people get confused and use the spade as a leverage bit and that is a diversion from what it was supposed to be.

[sascha]

@Alterration

You’ve used the analogy of comforting touch, which sounds very nice - to expand on that…the philosophical question is - does the horse find a constant touch no matter where it is - comforting? They don’t tend to touch each other quite like that - there’s no holding hands with other horses. They touch each other or move each other with short bursts of contact. Even the mutual grooming isn’t “constant” and they rarely reassure each other with touch quite the same way humans do.

I know we generally stroke and pat our horses, but that is our construct - is it theirs?

It’s ok that we teach them that is what those things mean (again, no sticks thrown - just working the concept through) - if not, it’s a concept we have to teach them vs working with the nature of how they talk to each other.

Lots to unpack here.

Yes, I believe horses do find constant touch comforting. Some of that is learned in terms of quieting their mind when a hand is placed on them, but I think it’s more than a learned skill.

One of the first things I remember about learning to clip a horse or even groom one that was nervous was to place the non-active hand flat on the horse’s neck, body, or haunches depending on where you were using the active hand. It can make an absolutely remarkable difference in the horse’s demeanour and relaxation.

Different species, but also herd animals, cattle will also calm remarkably at a constant touch. I used to have to clip basically feral first-calf heifers. Once I could get a hand flat on their rump and just walk with them round their pen, they would quickly calm down, stand, and allow me to bring the clippers in and clip them - one hand clipping, the other resting on them, no other restraint required.

The horses touching each other thing is actually a thing. We may not see it often, but they will do it in the field when napping together and will absolutely do it in the stable under the right circumstances. The most obvious example I can think of was when my horse and a retiree were both injured and couldn’t go out with their respective herds for the day. Each morning we’d move them into a foaling stall that was divided in half with just a 3-rail fence sort of thing. They would snack on their hay, nap, groom each other over the divider, and spend a good deal of time just resting their ‘beaks’ on each other’s rump over the divider. Back to their respective stalls at night for safety, then back to the foaling stall and a repeat performance of the hanging out and touching for weeks on end. It was pretty cool.

Although those 2 knew each other from over the fence outside, they were not in the same herd and I would not have called them ‘friends’ from watching them outside in good health. Inside though, in the ‘right’ (wasn’t right by either of the humans’ perspective!!! one foundered and one with a degloving injury :o ) circumstances they certainly appeared to take comfort from being able to touch each other.

[Alterration]

That’s all very interesting. Thank you!

I don’t see too many of my herd touching constantly. I do see them groom each other, and I see them touch, but it’s never resting. Perhaps I just don’t have horses that trust each other all that much (which is entirely possible - we board horses so there are few that have been long pairs).

I don’t do a ton of clipping (I’m perpetually allergic to the idea of fuss of any sort) but I do teach all of mine to clip and you’re right - a touch with the other hand is reassuring. And I will rest a hand on the side of the neck while riding if one is nervous. Generally though I’ll scratch withers before I rest my hand flat, and I’m not really sure when I started that.

Ok - so I can see that. Thank you - that makes WAY more sense in light of the way you’ve described it. I don’t really think we’re very far apart at all.

[sascha]

Just thought of another horse touching horse thing - a mare will sometimes stand over a sleeping foal with her muzzle touching the kiddo. Horses may not make cat piles, but gentle constant touch is a thing.

[Alterration]

@sascha

Just thought of another horse touching horse thing - a mare will sometimes stand over a sleeping foal with her muzzle touching the kiddo. Horses may not make cat piles, but gentle constant touch is a thing.

True! Ok - so - they are ok with gentle touches.

So - the analogy in dressage land is that you’re gently touching to reassure them and then at times you may need to touch more. I can understand that. Which explains why the horses don’t object (which is true, most of them don’t object terribly), and I think that can explain to a degree why the aid isn’t just ignored.

To rewind a bit I started down the path of signal land with my current horse because dressage trainers were very much not successful with him. He can be ridden on contact for awhile but for them he reared. The words people used were “not submissive”, “testy” and “uncooperative”. One trainer flat out would not ride him. Another had him walking on his hind end on the longe much less under saddle.

I didn’t actually want to train him - I had just had a bunch of surgeries to repair things after 30 years of riding green and troubled horses caught up with me - and he is a zesty booger with incredible teleportation abilities. I have bad hips, a hinky back, and my tolerance for hitting the ground is becoming limited. He was 5 when I got him, and had already shown in Saddlebred-land, been converted to dressage and ridden that way for a year, and then sat in a field for a year when that person didn’t get along with him. I’m not new to green horses - I’ve backed plenty and sold them, but not of his talent or athleticism. So I thought I’d have help…ahh the best laid plans.

My original goal for him WAS to work with him (with my trainer) and have him get to at least 4th (and me along the way). He’s got quite a bit of talent, and I had hoped that he would be kind of my final hurrah in terms of riding and showing. I’ve lived in mostly h/j land, but also took lessons in dressage-land for the last 30 years. Contrary to the accusations - I very much love dressage. I always dreamed of riding a musical freestyle. I wasn’t always a western rider and it certainly wasn’t my original goal to make a bridle horse.

Anyhow, I knew he wouldn’t make a hunter, so that was right out, and I couldn’t find a dressage trainer to work with us without him waving his front feet around so that was out the window. So I went back to the beginning like I had with green horses, and started to explore other concepts since I was kind of stuck. He longes fine for me, and he’s absolutely brilliant with western and liberty styles of groundwork.

He doesn’t actually like being touched, which may be a piece of the puzzle. He doesn’t like being stroked, and he hates the concept of being confined. I would imagine that saddling him for the first time was quite exciting. Shoeing him took quite awhile before he didn’t object terribly, and again if you confine him he finds that to be most repellant. There is nothing naturally calm about this horse - even in the pasture he is the herd leader (I know about the research, I’m just describing the behavior) and he is the first to wade in when something is new. A coyote came into the pasture and he trotted out to investigate while the others stayed behind. He has chased and attacked various animals that have come in. He is VERY bold.

He is also incredibly spicy. He came to me with such high anxiety that he tap danced in the cross ties. He could not stand at the end of the lead rope. With a snaffle bit he chomped nervously like it was in his mouth for the first time (it was not). He is so anxious to please and most people are just too loud for him. The response of the dressage instructors to the anxious snaffle chomping was to want to put a flash on him, and that was another sign that this all wasn’t going to work.

I do have something against flashes (see, I have a few things :)) as I think that hides a multitude of issues in the hand. I’ve always done a loose-ish cavesson even as a hunter, and now I just go without. If the horse is offended by anything I do, I know about it very quickly.

It’s been theorized that I don’t ask much of him, but that’s not true - I do ask plenty of him. Since I’ve had him, he’s learned TOF, TOH, leg yielding in both directions, shoulder in and we definitely work to activate the hind leg. I’ve also taught him to drag a log, tolerate me swinging a rope over his head, he picks me up at the mounting block, and other fun and seemingly useless skills, but I think the variety works for his very active brain. If he were a person, he would be that incredibly annoyingly ADHD but brilliant straight A student who asks the question “why” all the time.

But this all may explain quite a bit about why he wasn’t so accepting of the hand. He does tolerate me and I can even ride him on a very soft contact but his anxiety does amp up the minute the snaffle goes in his mouth. In a snaffle, it must be a Mullen with a roller. He doesn’t do the same thing in the curb, which we can ride him in, and the bosal keeps him totally relaxed. I tried it when I was going WAY back to my roots to try to understand. I was taught originally as a child by a Ray Hunt devotee, and I suppose some of that is still in there.

I’ve also noticed that when the dressage saddle comes out, or the hunter saddle, he’s anxious, but the western saddle doesn’t do that. He also ground ties and will stand still, but though the cross ties are better than they were, he’s still a bit of a perpetual motion machine on them.

I’ll also note that he does have issues with his TMJ - and rubbing his jaw on the ground results in some relaxation. When I first got him and then subsequently removed him from trainer #1 and had the Chiro & Massage therapist work with him both his poll and his TMJ were very very out. I wonder if the anxiety is a sort of PTSD by association.

So anyway - all THAT not to talk about how brilliant of a trainer I am (I’m not) or how special he is (he’s not) but to explain why I was really poking at the theories and trying to understand because I haven’t been able to figure out why I couldn’t just ride him with the understanding I had. Keep in mind, I’d ridden other horses, even some very sensitive ones, on contact just fine. I definitely wasn’t “pulling”.

So I figured there was a gap - and then I was trying to close that gap but no one around me could explain it. The trainers I had engaged didn’t do it. The books didn’t do it. It’s been a huge source of frustration for the last 5 years! But perhaps I wasn’t asking the right way. It’s hard to explain it all in words without sounding like you have rookie beginner or black stallion syndrome, so thank you for hanging in there, even though I’ve frustrated you greatly!

[sascha]

@Alterration

how special he is (he’s not)

Yes, he is. Until someone has owned one that has a few of the traits you mentioned above, they haven’t yet been fully humbled. You cannot “get” these horses until you own one and commit to doing right by it. For me they’re worth it (I’ve had 2) but they are not for everyone and if they land in the wrong hands (sounds like yours did in his early life (I was lucky and neither of mine did) they either get ruined or hurt someone. Kudos for sticking it out.

[colorfan]

@Alterration

But I don’t understand why that occurs knowing that it’s contrary to horse training 101 which says “if you want a horse to ignore an aid, keep applying it”.

ok, so just thinking out loud, I do want the horse to ignore the light constant pressure but I want that contact so when I do add more contact there is no bumping, so my added contact is smooth and instantly understood. This is how the horse learns to trust the reins because they don’t bump his mouth. It’s a series of add release, add release, combined of course with leg and weight aids.

[stryder]

I’ve been told that sometimes pain responses get hard-wired. He’s just so sure that this is gonna hurt that he’s armored up and ready. You’ve broken that cycle by switching up bits, saddles … whatever he needs to approach relaxation. Good on you.

I bought a gelding about 15 months ago. First thing was take off the flash. Then because I couldn’t get the noseband loose enough, took that off, too. If I’m interfering to the extent that he’s gaping, then I need to know. He goes just fine in a Baucher snaffle. It hangs quietly and works well for horses with low palates.

[Mondo]

The horses touching thing is instinct. Wild horses in a herd, when running from a predator, will pack in together tightly, touching sides. That way, when the wolf or cougar or whatever comes to attack, most of the horses are protected. The ones on the outside of the herd are the most vulnerable. It’s why we have to train them to move away from leg pressure - because their instinct is to move toward it. In self-defense, the outside horses will move into the predator to avail themselves of their greater size.

[Alterration]

Thank you.

I guess I should clarify, he is very special to me. And he has been the biggest challenge of my riding career. I do believe that he brings a very special brilliance to everything and he is very very smart.

I did make a promise to him about 9 months in, after we had gone through 2 of the trainers and I was weeping into his neck, that he was stuck with me, and for whatever woo reason, I feel like that has mattered to him. That’s about as woo as I get haha!

Again, thanks again. This has been very helpful!

[Alterration]

This is true. A green horse will move into the hand when you initially touch. That’s another helpful connection!

[Alterration]

Understood.

There is no bumping in true signal riding either, just to be clear. The lifting of the rein causes the spoon to lift slightly off the tongue. There is no action on the bars, nor the roof of the mouth, and the curb strap should never engage.

The bit is often hung low, and the horse picks it up and holds it willingly. They would not do that if bumped There are many pictures of horses simply holding the bit with no hanger.

[Alterration]

@stryder

He goes just fine in a Baucher snaffle. It hangs quietly and works well for horses with low palates.

The baucher was actually one that he objected to less but we couldn’t find the mouthpiece exactly like the other. This was in the phase of “perhaps it’s a bitting issue”.

I suspect that he might have very sharp bars, as he very much does not tolerate bar pressure, and he needs to be able to move the bit with his tongue. The rubber and synthetic mouths were just too thick, and I tried one of the gel ones and he just chewed on it so fast it was ruined. We have also tried titanium, German silver, copper and almost every myler under the sun. I have a whole wall of rejected bits just from him!

That was before I tried the western saddle, which I threw on because I was having a terrible hip day and needed to sit a bit more above him, and noticed his demeanor absolutely shift. Like night and day.

It has definitely been a learning experience!