I was reading this series of articles and the one on self carriage seems relevant to this discussion: https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2014/12/principles-of-horsemanship-part-7-self-carriage
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This is very helpful. All of it! Thank you. It actually seems like a very nice summary of the thread. It seems I have a much better understanding of it than perhaps I might have thought.
Ahhh! and this!
What happens when two opposing aids are presented at once varies between horses. Some horses seem to tolerate these confusions and all that happens is that they dull to the pressures of both go and stop to some extent. The horse loses his immediate response to the go and stop aids and the light aid gradually transforms into a heavier one. Other horses however may react violently to the simultaneous application of two opposing aids, and may try to run away, panic, bolt, rear, buck or shy. Others might express various levels of conflict behaviour in out-of-context situations such as developing separation anxiety, become hard to catch, difficult on the ground or poor traveling. These out-of-context conflict behaviours are the hardest ones for riders and trainers to diagnose.
Just to take a bit of a detourā¦
The horse begins to express what are known as conflict behaviours. In short-term conflicts the horse may become tense and/or show defensive behaviours such as rearing and bucking. It may begin to shy or show other behaviours that riders mistakenly perceive as naughty. However when the pain is long-term, serious assaults on the horseās health occur. The animalās digestive system may be challenged and ulcers and colic are more common in performance horses than trail horses. What is rarely understood is that the price of constant pain can be expressed in behaviour totally out of its original context. The horse may begin walking its fence line (trying to flee the stressful situation) or showing increasing separation anxiety (insecurity). It might even self-mutilate by biting its sides or shoulders or it may bite objects. All of these can occur because the horse is āworriedā by its training at a deeper level than the conscious.
My current horse came to me as a self-mutilator. He had been pastured and left completely alone for a year before I got him, but I wonder if those early experiences had gotten embedded that deeply into his psyche. Now he mostly does it if the other horses are out and he is not out yet due to inclement weather or fixes to the paddock. He also will do it if there is a herd conflict and he cannot get to it to resolve it. It has become his response to stress of any sort.
Interestingly, I have another horse who came to me as the worst cribber Iāve ever seen. He will crib immediately after being taught something new and despite being treated extensively for ulcers. Iāve seen the research that connects it to autism, but I have always believed that for him at least it became a way of self-soothing. He was an HUS horse before I got him, and was very roughly jabbed in the mouth to keep his head down (I watched his former owner ride him when I bought him). It took him a long time to come out of his shell, and when he did he was quite exciting. He is retired now, but it took him a long time to feel safe and still when you take him into the arena he puts up a wall at first.
Ok - so Iām not alone. All of this has been very helpful in connecting things for me. McLean is very understandable and clear.
This one is good too! https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2014/12/the-principles-of-horsemanship-part-3-pavlovs-principle/
Only 35 years!
My mother had me at 40 years old, she learned to ride Dressage in England and worked at the Silver Hound. It was a riding school and they used to have actors come in to film scenes as well. How cool is that? Of course all the actors she mentions are from an era I donāt know.
In the Army she was stationed as a Nurse in Egypt. She had lessons there and there were no geldings. All mares and stallions. She said there was no real difference from Geldings, although they could have a bit more Pep if a mare was in season.
On to Western Australia and ran the Pony Club with my Sister doing Eventing very successfully. Mum still rode and took lessons.
I was born. My sister used to jump with me in front of her before I could walk.
My father died. We sold the farm and all the horses with me crying on my horseās back during the Auction. I was about 10 yo.
On to Victoria, we had 2 ex racehorses from a Rescue. The Pony Club was at the school. They went back when we moved to Queensland.
I was not allowed to have a horse, until we had our own property. As we were living in a caravan that seemed a pipe dream, however Mum and I would go and have lessons occasionally, including lunge lessons. I would go to Horse camp in school Holidays.
When I was 15yo we did get our own property. I was a beginner again and I did not understand contact, when they said more rein, I gave more rein, why pick up and hold the reins on such a sensitive horse?
Answer because he had a 6 foot long neck and was ridden on the forehand all those years. He eventually tripped went down on his knees. I stayed on. He came up for a quarter of a second then flipped sideways and my helmet hit the ground first. He ploughed me 6 foot across the ground and I was knocked unconscious. My Mum, an ex Matron kicked me and told me to get up! But I digress.
We started having weekly lessons as well as going to Ponyclub and competing every weekend. Mum was with me every step of the way. We had lessons together and the instructor and I figured out she was just copying what I was doing as she couldnāt hear. We found a headphone that we put on the helmet and now she could hear she excelled.
I became a Pony Club Instructor. I became a Level I instructor.
Then I left and worked in NSW and after being told my hands were dead, my legs were dead and I wasnāt using my seat, Mum was now 65 years old. I came home and gave her a lesson on Pepper. She did not get out of walk in that first lesson.
In the second lesson it clicked, she was able to trot and canter and all she could do was exclaim over and over and over and over. This is so easy. I canāt believe it.
It is magic when you feel the correct contact and that is what keeps us going back for more. It is a drug, you canāt get enough of it.
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For those who are interested in this stuffā¦
Mistral du Coussoul & AlizƩe Froment at the GP Freestyle CDIO Hickstead 2013 getting a 70.2%
And the same horse-rider pair doing an exhibition at CHIO-Aachenā¦with no bridle
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Beautiful an Angel on a horse.
However one of the Golden Rules was broken in that Performance.
Never attach yourself to a horse.
Everything is fine until the 1/100ths of a second something goes wrong.
How many kids/adults are going to try and copy this at home? She is a role model.
I was once on a horse being perfect, we were doing a controlled collected canter and he was being as good as gold. He stepped in a hole and came down. He was too big a horse to come down like that. He split his shoulder open and I still have a scar on my palm where it was split open, I was thrown clear. Can you imagine what would have happened if I was thrown clear and I was attached to the horse like that.
Not attaching yourself to a horse includes kids putting reins over their head, tying feet to stirrups or the most stupidest things I have seen online, plaiting your hair into their tail.
Some cultures havenāt read the Pony Club rulebook. Talk to the rejoneadores who fight bulls like this.
Not very good resolution, but it gives you the general idea
Here is the equipment used for this.
The belt
And the reins
A better video with Andy Cartagena
How is the rider attached to the horse?
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His neck rope is attached to a belt around her waist.
Yikes!
Yes. You canāt see it at first, but when she goes to the walk work, itās very apparent. Iām with SusieQ on this one. Itās horsemanship 101. Even when you are on the ground, donāt ever attach yourself to a horse. Jeez. I wonder what the purpose of that is.
Try doing a competitive grand prix test w/o it.
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So it looks like those knobs on the reins fit through the slot in the tab on the belt?
If properly constructed i can see that this would offer a quick release if one came off.
Otherwise, these are braver people than I! (This would not be difficult 
)
And the thought occurs, maybe you donāt want to become detached from your horse when the alternative is being gored by a bull?
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Ooh, ooh! What would be really interesting is seeing the Hickstead Free Style done with the neck rein and no bridle.
Well, it aināt gonna happen as the FEI does not allow the GP test to ridden with only a snaffle. So you think bitless??? No way. No how. Not in this lifetime.
However, since we are talking about ācontact,ā here she is doing some of the GP test movements done bitless AND bareback (sitting on a pad) while schooling at homeā¦and for those who worry about these things, she not ātied to the horse.ā
I was actually thinking an exhibition grand prix test sans bridle, key word being test.
Hereās the thing about that: she trained the horse using a bridle with a bit, and eventually 2 bits. Now, when she rides him sans bridle, heās mostly through and in self-carriage and itās terrific. I applaud her. But I assure you, she did not get him to Grand Prix in a neck strap only.
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And you know this how? You know Alizee Froment? You have been to her training barn?
I am jealous if you have, as I admit to being a fan and glad to see her name crop up here.
I personally donāt know Fromentās training methods, so I would not be so presumptuous as to say what she does to train her horse.
But here is one of the more popular names, Reiner Klimke, warming up the stallion Biotop in a snaffle at Aachen.
I understand that. Again, I am not questioning dressage as a sport.
What I am interested in is the deeper why. And I think Iāve found it. The notion is that you must desensitize a horse to the pressure in his/her mouth in order to ride on contact. It may be necessary to achieve the type of handholding described here by others but it is a desensitization instead of a sensitization.
I am also not saying that it is bad/horrible/abusive or what have you.
That being said, I am curious as to why it is required from a collection point of view. Not why itās required in the tests. Not why itās required because these are horses with very large gaits.
But it has always been presented to me as a very physical thing (the not letting energy escape out the front) or an esoteric thing (holding hands with a partner) and not from an animal behaviorist or biomechanical point of view.
Itās a deeper why that Iām seeking. I do think Iāve found much of an answer in McLeanās work, and thatās been very helpful. The discussion here has been helpful as well, as people were able to understand my question as not an offense on dressage but as seeking deeper meaning than I had been taught.
It is not a deep thought. The reason ācompetition dressageā requires ācontactā is because we are what we wereā¦and that is what the rules committees say āitā is. Before civilians could ride in the Olympics, the officers (only officers) of the cavalry could compete.
The mounted cavalry took horses to war. These animals were to be obedient regardless what came its way. I am āof a certain ageāā¦eg., I am old enough to have been a student of the old cavalry trainers that found another profession after WWII as riding instructors. Those men are mostly passed away, but the one I remember vividly was an old Hungarian who called the curb, āpower brakes.ā The current rules reflect that heritage even though we no longer take horses into battle.
I also think it is antithetical to say GP dressage is the highest training of a horseā¦yet the rules REQUIRE the use of nosebands and curb bits.
It is somewhat ironic that riding in an FEI test (not national) at a CDI, you are not allowed to show the partnership with your horse by riding in a snaffle. You are also not allowed to ride one-handed.
So, I understand what you are saying. I would say dressage, as oriented to the goal of winning in a competition, has different objectives than those who want to train their horse as an animal, not as a piece of sports equipment.
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