That’s what I’ve been doing (i think!), and it’s still there. I’ll try to catch her walk and trot warning signs a bit better, but she really didn’t have any issues with it from what I could see. She was trotting with her nose in the dirt, tail loose and swinging, blinking, responding to cues for transitions, trotting a pole, etc. with it on prior to yesterday’s issues.
Today’s a new day, and hopefully a better one - for both her and me.
Well… I had a friend who got bucked off one day when a branch got caught in her horses’ tail. She went home, tied a branch to his tail, turned him out with a companion who would push him around and make him move. Ahem. Problem solved.
Anyway. One of my thoughts is, do you have any soft polo wraps? You could attach them to a surcingle and around her bum. Just let her wear them. They are soft, won’t burn, and in a real jam would just rip.
I have used those for teaching hobbles and other things. You can tie them to her hocks and just let them drag. Whatever you need.
I do have polo wraps! I figured the rope around the bum to the surcingle would be a good start, but maybe the polo would have been better because it’s lighter.
I’ve never used polos to teach hobbling but that’s a great idea. Hobbling is in her future, not very near future, but every horse I own learns to hobble. It’s such a valuable skill to have.
Just sounds like an opinionated baby who has never been allowed to say no until now.
I wouldn’t tie anything to her and turn her out. That’s like being scared of snakes and someone just ties one to you and you can’t get away from it. Just short sessions and a couple steps of canter here and there. She will get over it. She’s had a lot of change in a short period of time. 1% better each time you work with her is huge. Look how far she has come.
I have no doubt she’s tried to say no, but got stuff crammed down her throat anyways. I don’t tolerate “no” either, but I’m not interested in cramming anything down her throat. I want her to understand that anything I ask for is 1) not going to hurt her and 2) she must give a whirl at. The process for that is years, no doubt.
The conflicting thoughts are 1) flooding, 2) if you “take it away” when she’s kicked at it, she learned to kick at it, 3) what to do when you’ve done all the “homework” but the reactions are still there in one gait, etc.
Many roads to Rome, as simkie said. Trying to balance all the things, letting her have her sass but encouraging her to work through things. A thought experiment, if you will. I compared it to blanketing - at some point you have to take the rope off and let them figure out they aren’t going to die with it on them. But when is that “right point”?
But that’s the thing: just because she doesn’t look upset doesn’t mean that the question still isn’t moving the needle on her dial. It’s great that she’s good with it at slower gaits! And that she’s thinking about it. In your shoes, I’d keep her there for awhile.
Do you remember learning to drive? How there was just a lot to take in and process? And how going faster just made all that a LOT MORE? I totally remember being comfortable and feeling competent on neighborhood streets, but holy shit the highway was fucking terrifying. Just because I was okay in one situation doesn’t mean I was really okay or ready for more, and the solution wasn’t more highway time–it was more driving where I was comfortable, to build confidence and competency. Then once I had that, the highway was a lot less overwhelming.
Consider what you’re really looking for here. Is it eliminating the no? Or is it getting to a yes? Because those are different things. You can eliminate the no without building competency and confidence and not getting a yes. You can absolutely shut down that communication channel. But that’s not the same as understanding.
And perhaps give some thought as to how you do expect or want your horses to communicate that they’re confused, or not fit for the question, or overwhelmed, if you don’t want them to communicate that like you’re seeing here.
We’re very different in that I don’t mind seeing a horse say no. I appreciate that communication, because I find it helpful to know that there’s some sort of hole there to address. I don’t want to shut down that communication because it’s a whole lot harder if they DON’T tell me.
I think we’re talking around each other, honestly. Some of the way you describe stuff implies that I’m just daily making this young horse do a host of things she isn’t ready for. You did the same thing with the Shayney thread too. It is likely my communication style, which I said I was going to just post pictures but am trying to figure out how to communicate better - perhaps that’s not the best choice and pictures it will be.
“No” is a horse flat out refusing to even attempt what a human is asking for. A horse who marginally or fully understands an ask, and is saying “eff that, I’m not going to.”
Example: A horse that plants his feet when you ask him to walk away from his pasture mates, and tries to wheel back to them. This is a horse who knows how to lead. That, to me, is not exposing a hole. The horse knows how to lead and would rather do XYZ. I’m not saying “and then you beat them!” but the consequence for a horse saying “nope, would rather not”, regardless of the circumstance is different than a horse saying “hang on a minute, I need to think about this”.
That’s the “try” I’m talking about. The horse is not permitted to say “eff off, I’m not doing it” when the foundation is there and proven - the “no” in that case results in pressure (not beating, not confrontation, just pressure) until they are attempting to do what is asked. They don’t have to completely commit to doing it, either - they just have to give it thought, give it a try.
Ex 1: You ask for forward on a horse who knows forward - either they try or they say “nah” and you recondition the response with pressure and the release.
Ex 2: You ask to approach something scary - they either take a step towards the scary thing (or lower their head, etc) to signify an attempt, or they wheel and try to bolt and get refaced towards the object, where the pressure is released. The wheel and bolt is a no, and the pressure doesn’t go away (it doesn’t increase, it doesn’t anything, it just stays) - until they’re facing the object (trying) and then it is released while the horse thinks. Again, I don’t expect a scared horse to march on up there - it will take as long as it takes, and it may not even happen in a day for the biggest of things (in either their minds, or for real). They just have to show me try.
I don’t think any of this is earth shattering, and if it is, I guess I’ve been going about this wrong for 20+ years.
And I guess you and I did our driving differently - the way I got better on the highway is getting on the highway more. You don’t learn how to merge by making sure you stopped for 2 seconds at a stop sign. At some point, the only way to learn is to actually go do it, no?
Just a thought I’ve had. Her only turnout companion is an older gelding, correct? Does she ever get to yahoo and “zoom zoom” around in turnout? I’m wondering if maybe she needs some time being allowed to blow off a little steam in an unstructured manner before you ask her to settle down and work.
She’s out on an acre of grass for 16 hours a day, and the dry lot for the remaining 8 hours she has access to is roughly 1/4+ acre of limestone. She can run around out there all she likes - sometimes the gelding will join but most of the time not.
That’s actually an interesting thought though, as I’ve found lots of young horses need that time, especially in the winter. 10 minutes of whatever you want as long as it’s moving, then it’s work time.
I could try to do that, see if I get more focus. I already keep the sessions so short (someone recently posted about a 30 minute lunge session for her youngsters and I cringed - even if it’s just walking that is too long to keep focus on a 2 and 3 year old, and I have never lunged anything for longer than 30 minutes, even my seasoned horses on a schedule), and getting even shorter with the daylight hours shortening.
Another soft introduction to crupper or butt rope is just a tail wrap. Something else you can do while grooming etc. to get her used to tail distractions.
She is so cute and smart and brave and you are doing a great job with her.
The stronger she gets, the canter stuff will dissipate. I wouldn’t focus on the canter, just ask every now and then as a litmus test. With your consistency, she will be there in no time!
Does she actually play alone? That’s my problem with my mare. She is on solo turnout and unprompted will never really play. When my gelding was younger he would romp around as needed even on solo turnout.
Yeah, I’d totally see this as a hole. That’s not a horse that knows how to lead.
In my opinion and experience, horses very rarely say fuck off, I’m not doing it. They say I don’t understand. They say I’m overwhelmed. They say I physically cannot. You really interpret this behavior here this way? Why? In such a young horse that knows so little? Why assume so quickly that she’s so obstinate, rather than confused or overwhelmed or unfit, especially when you’ve not even had the time with her to rule out or address all those things?
There are two ways to approach a new driver who’s overwhelmed with the highway: say I don’t care you’re overwhelmed, stop crying, and just do it. Or, say wow, I thought you were ready but you were not, let’s go practice more where the stakes are lower, build skills and competence, and try again when you’re more solid. One is flooding, and one is not. Highway driving skills are mostly just driving skills, and those can be built anywhere.
You asked for thoughts on not flooding your little filly. I agree with your concern that you are. There are other approaches. You could try a different way.
Simkie. This is why I said we talk around each other.
I’m trying to clarify the difference between “no” and “I’ll try.” I never anywhere said this MARE (she’s a little past filly) has said no to me. She hasn’t. I’m attempting to clarify ideas, and you’re twisting it into me saying that I’m saying it about this particular horse. I’m not, that’s why I actually provided examples of situations. Show me anywhere I’ve said that this mare, Grundy, has said no or eff-off to me.
A horse who knows how to lead will absolutely stop dead in their tracks and say no. That is absolutely a possibility. I don’t understand how you can think that it’s not. Does it mean the horse needs a refresher? Sure! Does it mean the horse has no idea how to lead? Absolutely not. Horses are living beings - they can elect to say “nope.” It doesn’t need to necessarily mean there is confusion - I think you severely underestimate your horses if you think that every time a horse says no they are confused. They may fully understand and elect to say “not today, compadre” for a variety of reasons. There are times where that reason is “I don’t want to.”
And yes, there are two ways to approach the new driver, sure. But at some point - they still have to get on the damned highway. All the city driving in the world will not replicate that. Will it help? Maybe in some cases, other times not really. Because there is nothing that’s going to teach you how to merge onto a busy highway other than practicing doing JUST THAT. You’re gunna suck at it at first, and each time you’re going to get better. That’s normal. No one is expecting perfection - but you aren’t going to learn by not doing it.
QFP. And quoted so I can try to understand why it seems as if my communication style is so confusing.
Because I’m a glutton for punishment - another theory question not related to Grundy at all but strictly a theory and thought exercise:
What triggers decide that it’s time to move forward? AGAIN A THEORY EXERCISE: Horse shows all the signs of relaxation, but shows nervousness when moved to the next step. Handler backs off several times over the period of weeks - horse still shows signs of nervousness when moved to the next step.
Should the handler press a little bit, to see if the horse just needs experience at the next step to ease the fear and anxiety? Or should the handler back off and stay “low” for as long as it takes for the next step to have no nervousness or fear?
What level of anxiety is acceptable?
She doesn’t, but she doesn’t really play, period. She’s no-nonsense with other horses, even Shayney who was in the right age bracket.
I’d try “getting the wiggles out” a few times before asking her to work. My 4 month old colt right now definitely focuses better and makes better decisions after he’s gotten to run around like a nut. Also the new mare who is 6 does better when she is asked to run around before saddling or lunged after saddling before riding. I didn’t start her and I think she was always lunged before riding and so for now she needs to move her feet to install her brain.
I have absolutely had horses tell me to “eff off” when asked something they didn’t want to do. It doesn’t happen often but it does happen. I like opinionated horses that think independently, but sometimes that leads to a difference of opinions. My husband’s mare will say “NO!” if she doesn’t feel like doing something and then if you insist you get malicious compliance. She’s well trained and understands the request, she’s just a bit of a diva. Fortunately she takes super care of him and they love each other dearly so she’s worth her weight in gold and I just roll my eyes at her occasional tantrums.
You’ve brought this up a couple times…
We have all done things “wrong.” We have all approached things previously in ways that, in retrospect, we would not with what we know now. We are all continuing to learn and grow and add tools to our boxes with every horse, or every post here that comes with a different viewpoint, or with books we read, or trainers we work with. Isn’t that one of the reasons we’re all here?
The way I approach my horses now is SO DRASTICALLY different than the way I approached them 20, 10, even 5 years ago. Because I’ve learned new things, and often that learning is because I ran into a situation with a horse that didn’t go the way I expected it to, and had to find a new way. Had to figure out just why things weren’t working the way I had seen before and why wasn’t the horse getting it and goddamnit just wtf is wrong with the horse…or is it me?
So I changed and tried things and some things didn’t work (at least not with that horse, but hey, maybe keep that idea in the box for later) and some things did work and where I am now is a very long way from where I started, with a much bigger toolbox–which I think is pretty common. I also came up with a lot of “make them do it” “don’t let them get away with that” “don’t let him tell you no” and trained that way for a long time. I just thought that was how it was done. At some point, I ran into situations where that didn’t work so great. I saw more empathetic approaches shared here, or by trainers, or in a book about training, or whatever, so with nothing to lose, I tried it out, and hey, that seemed to work better.
You seems so very resistant to adding a different tool to your toolbox…because of what that says about your previous training? Learning and growing and trying stuff out and becoming more flexible trainers is the goal, isn’t it? Because every horse comes with their own set of challenges and learning style and things to puzzle out and what works great for one sometimes won’t work at all for another.
All I am suggesting is listening to your filly (I guess you disagree, but I go with the JC definition that they’re not mares until the five year old year) and giving her more time with things that she CAN do well instead of continuing to push on something that she CANNOT do well. At the absolute very least, it’s confidence, trust and fitness building. There are really no negatives, except I guess if you’re on a short timeline? If she still falls apart at the canter after not pushing her to work on it for awhile, you can always approach in another way. No harm done. That’s sort of what training is all about? Trying stuff to see what works best for that specific horse. Because they’re all a little different.
That’s kind of the deal–there is no single answer? Horses are all different and what they need to succeed can be different? They’re living creatures and you’ve got to feel out what that particular horse needs? You can’t approach them all in the same way? It’s not like we’re mechanics upgrading a dirt bike.
So I would ask you back: Is the horse showing nervousness, or fear? Because those are different things. Is the horse improving in the task at hand by working on more foundation skills, or not? If the horse is improving, it seems clear that the current approach is working, no? When to really incorporate the “difficult” task would be dependent on how much the horse had improved, along with their response to introducing it. If they’ve gone from a lot nervous to a little nervous, but introducing the difficult task took them back to a lot nervous, that looks too early. If they go from a little nervous to less nervous, that looks like a reasonable progression.
I mean really…what is the horse telling you about their comfort with the task at hand? Learning doesn’t really happen well when they’re scared or freaked out…or at the least, they sure don’t usually learn what you want them to learn. Or they just shut down, which is one way, but makes things harder later if actual understanding isn’t there.
Sure, but there are a LOT more reasons behind “I don’t want to” besides “fuck off.”
Well frankly in Grundy’s case at this point it’s neither. It’s irritation. She isn’t scared of the rope, she’s mad and annoyed at how it feels.
Which is why my mind began to ponder what is the right answer when the preflight checks are passed. The horse is in fact showing they are ready for the next step, but when presented they act out in some way. In the case of fear, I’d agree with you that it can’t hurt to step back and go back to basics. But in the case of annoyance? I don’t know that that’s always the right answer. And, is the answer to remove the rope, if the rope is causing stress? I don’t think that’s good for their education necessarily either.
I appreciate that you couldn’t go back and find anywhere where I was relating my examples and questions to the mare I have. Because I didn’t. She’s always been game to try things, which I appreciate.
There can be. But it can also be “I don’t want to.” To eliminate that as a potential possibility is a disservice to the horse. And there are cases where I don’t care WHY the horse wants to do or not do something - it’s unacceptable and they are not permitted to do that (kicking and biting).
My training theory is there needs to be some challenging of the horses mind and some induction of anxiety in order to progress. As Tristan Tucker says in regards to always staying in the safe zone - “you need to ask a question worth answering”. I’m just mulling over what sets those limits, where it goes from beneficial to non-beneficial, and enjoying hearing your perspective.
What I don’t enjoy is being accused of saying that Grundy is being bad and that I’m projecting these theoretical situations on her.
FWIW - with Shayney it’s an environmental issue. She’s out on a 6 month lease at a very busy barn with peacocks and all sorts of stuff and from the second she stepped off the trailer, it’s like she was a whole new horse. The quiet barns she’s been at for the last 3 years really did a number on her mentally - it was noticeable right away when I moved her out of the busy barn (where I never had spooky-type issues with her, she was still ditzy and not “street smart”) to the private place but I figured she just needed time to settle. The answer is - she thrives in controlled chaos. So I guess - sometimes stress/anxiety/etc is not going to be resolved by just being patient, sometimes it’s environment.
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