Guide to all things Pony? - and, meet Grundy

[Simkie]

@endlessclimb

Well frankly in Grundy’s case at this point it’s neither. It’s irritation. She isn’t scared of the rope, she’s mad and annoyed at how it feels.

But only at the canter, which is why I’ve suggested giving her more time with it not at the canter, so she can gain more confidence at gaits where she’s okay with the feeling.

Look, you clearly aren’t interested in the approach I’m proposing. That’s okay, I’ll stop offering it. But it really IS okay to try new things, even if they’re very different than how you’ve done things in the past–or even if success with a new approach casts your previous one in a new light that you’re not entirely comfortable with.

[endlessclimb]

I never said I wasn’t interested in trying it. I actually agreed to try it. You must have missed it, or something.

@endlessclimb

I’ll take it back a step again, see what’s there.

[Simkie]

@endlessclimb

I never said I wasn’t interested in trying it. I actually agreed to try it. You must have missed it, or something.

I did, I think because you responded to that post twice. I hope some time away from the canter helps. I’m glad you’re giving it a shot. I’m sorry I missed that post.

I’d also like to point out that all this is a little disingenuous:

@endlessclimb

Well frankly in Grundy’s case at this point it’s neither. It’s irritation. She isn’t scared of the rope, she’s mad and annoyed at how it feels.

@endlessclimb

I appreciate that you couldn’t go back and find anywhere where I was relating my examples and questions to the mare I have. Because I didn’t.

You posited the question as

@endlessclimb

not related to Grundy at all but strictly a theory and thought exercise:

@endlessclimb

AGAIN A THEORY EXERCISE :

You were quite serious about that, with the bolding and underlining. I responded as you requested–in theory, not relating to your filly.

[endlessclimb]

It’s also disingenuous to change the order of the quotes to make it fit the way you interpreted it.

[Simkie]

@endlessclimb

It’s also disingenuous to change the order of the quotes to make it fit the way you interpreted it.

What? Where have I done that. This is literally the progression.

@endlessclimb

Because I’m a glutton for punishment - another theory question not related to Grundy at all but strictly a theory and thought exercise:

What triggers decide that it’s time to move forward? AGAIN A THEORY EXERCISE : Horse shows all the signs of relaxation, but shows nervousness when moved to the next step. Handler backs off several times over the period of weeks - horse still shows signs of nervousness when moved to the next step

@endlessclimb

@Simkie

Is the horse showing nervousness, or fear? Because those are different things. Is the horse improving in the task at hand by working on more foundation skills, or not?

Well frankly in Grundy’s case at this point it’s neither. It’s irritation. She isn’t scared of the rope, she’s mad and annoyed at how it feels.

Which is why my mind began to ponder what is the right answer when the preflight checks are passed. The horse is in fact showing they are ready for the next step, but when presented they act out in some way. In the case of fear, I’d agree with you that it can’t hurt to step back and go back to basics. But in the case of annoyance? I don’t know that that’s always the right answer. And, is the answer to remove the rope, if the rope is causing stress? I don’t think that’s good for their education necessarily either.

I appreciate that you couldn’t go back and find anywhere where I was relating my examples and questions to the mare I have. Because I didn’t. She’s always been game to try things, which I appreciate.

[endlessclimb]

@Simkie

In my opinion and experience, horses very rarely say fuck off, I’m not doing it. They say I don’t understand. They say I’m overwhelmed. They say I physically cannot. You really interpret this behavior here this way? Why? In such a young horse that knows so little? Why assume so quickly that she’s so obstinate, rather than confused or overwhelmed or unfit, especially when you’ve not even had the time with her to rule out or address all those things?

@endlessclimb

I’m trying to clarify the difference between “no” and “I’ll try.” I never anywhere said this MARE (she’s a little past filly) has said no to me. She hasn’t. I’m attempting to clarify ideas, and you’re twisting it into me saying that I’m saying it about this particular horse. I’m not, that’s why I actually provided examples of situations. Show me anywhere I’ve said that this mare, Grundy, has said no or eff-off to me.

I then had another theory question - which since YOU were relating every example I was giving of training scenarios back to my mare, so I had to bold and underline.

@endlessclimb

Because I’m a glutton for punishment - another theory question not related to Grundy at all but strictly a theory and thought exercise:

What triggers decide that it’s time to move forward? AGAIN A THEORY EXERCISE : Horse shows all the signs of relaxation, but shows nervousness when moved to the next step. Handler backs off several times over the period of weeks - horse still shows signs of nervousness when moved to the next step.

Should the handler press a little bit, to see if the horse just needs experience at the next step to ease the fear and anxiety? Or should the handler back off and stay “low” for as long as it takes for the next step to have no nervousness or fear?

What level of anxiety is acceptable?

@Simkie

So I would ask you back: Is the horse showing nervousness, or fear? Because those are different things. Is the horse improving in the task at hand by working on more foundation skills, or not? If the horse is improving, it seems clear that the current approach is working, no? When to really incorporate the “difficult” task would be dependent on how much the horse had improved, along with their response to introducing it. If they’ve gone from a lot nervous to a little nervous, but introducing the difficult task took them back to a lot nervous, that looks too early. If they go from a little nervous to less nervous, that looks like a reasonable progression.

@endlessclimb

The horse is in fact showing they are ready for the next step, but when presented they act out in some way. In the case of fear, I’d agree with you that it can’t hurt to step back and go back to basics. But in the case of annoyance? I don’t know that that’s always the right answer. And, is the answer to remove the rope, if the rope is causing stress? I don’t think that’s good for their education necessarily either.

[Simkie]

I answered your

@endlessclimb

not related to Grundy at all but strictly a theory and thought exercise:

@endlessclimb

AGAIN A THEORY EXERCISE :

Exactly as you requested, as a theory question, and you get irked or snarky or whatever because I didn’t relate it to your filly. Relating my response to your filly to explain how my response doesn’t apply to her was literally your first sentence in response.

Dude, we’re clearly far apart. That’s okay. I dislike setting my horses up for failure. Asking a horse, especially a young horse, for something that I know it will do poorly and knowing I’ll have to correct a behavior I don’t want straight up isn’t my idea of a fun time. It’s not fun for the horse, either. If I know the horse doesn’t have the right answer, I’m not going to ask the question until I think they DO have the right answer. And there are all sorts of ways to teach them what the right answer is without asking the question and getting the wrong answer.

I am sure you disagree. I do very sincerely hope your filly improves.

[endlessclimb]

@Simkie

I dislike setting my horses up for failure. Asking a horse, especially a young horse, for something that I know it will do poorly and knowing I’ll have to correct a behavior I don’t want straight up isn’t my idea of a fun time. It’s not fun for the horse, either. If I know the horse doesn’t have the right answer, I’m not going to ask the question until I think they DO have the right answer. And there are all sorts of ways to teach them what the right answer is without asking the question and getting the wrong answer.

Actually, I don’t think we’re talking around each other. You say stuff like this, clearly implying that’s what I’m doing with my horses, when that’s flat out not true - I can not explain it any clearer, and you and others just want to see what’s not there.

I’ll leave your assuming post here as proof:

@Simkie

In my opinion and experience, horses very rarely say fuck off, I’m not doing it. They say I don’t understand. They say I’m overwhelmed. They say I physically cannot. You really interpret this behavior here this way? Why? In such a young horse that knows so little? Why assume so quickly that she’s so obstinate, rather than confused or overwhelmed or unfit, especially when you’ve not even had the time with her to rule out or address all those things?

So, yeah, we’re pretty far apart. I very sincerely wish you the best with your horses as well.

[Simkie]

@endlessclimb

I’ll leave your assuming post here as proof:

What am I assuming? These are all QUESTIONS.

@Simkie

You really interpret this behavior here this way? Why? In such a young horse that knows so little? Why assume so quickly that she’s so obstinate, rather than confused or overwhelmed or unfit, especially when you’ve not even had the time with her to rule out or address all those things?

Every single one. A question.

@endlessclimb

You say stuff like this, clearly implying that’s what I’m doing with my horses, when that’s flat out not true - I can not explain it any clearer, and you and others just want to see what’s not there.

You’ve said this filly isn’t comfortable with the rope at the canter. If you’re not getting the response you want when you ask for the canter, and you know you’re not going to get the response you want when you ask for the canter … this is what I mean about setting them up for failure. You’re asking for an answer you know she can’t provide?

I applaud you for considering how what you’re doing falls into flooding territory, and how that is probably not the best way to approach. Very seriously, I know it’s hard to think about things in different ways and look for alternates, and I’ve 100% been there before, too. I think it’s great that you’re planning on trying something else. I hope it helps.

[FjordBCRF]

@simkie, I really like you approach and it’s similar to mine today. 20 years ago I was a much different horse-woman.

@endlessclimb This is what I took away from simkies approach to working more at the walk and the trot. She may put out she’s comfortable at the walk and the trot to you, but I read it like Warrick Schillers 12 Rabbits. The canter is Grundys 12th rabbit right now.

I’ve had many instances with Charlie, mostly on trail, where walking and trotting he was comfortable, but sometimes at the canter with him moving faster past things, they looks different and he would side eye things. That translated to me that he needs more confidence.

In my head, not cantering in scary places each ride was teaching him he could get away with it based on how I was brought up in horses. The reality was, if I asked him to canter on a lower rabbit day, I’d get a better result and could reward. If he was more up, I knew I’d pick a fight if I asked and then nobody wins. Slowly over time with the positive experiences, the negative ones become less and less.

@Simkie made a really great analogy with the cars. I DO remember those feelings learning to drive!

[Simkie]

@FjordBCRF

Warrick Schillers 12 Rabbits

I’ve never seen this before but love it. Yes, exactly so!

Along for the ride: How Much Worry Can Your Horse Handle?

[FjordBCRF]

His latest book is worth the read. Nothing new, but he’s really got a knack for explaining things.

His Donkey Kong one is also relevant: basically, you can’t get to level 5 without passing levels 1-4 first. And if you fail at level 3, you have to start back at 1. By the time you succeed at level 5, you’ve really mastered 1-4.

[Spudsmyguy]

Here it is. Just picked it up last weekend. I love it. Have it hanging outside my front door

[endlessclimb]

I need to cut her mane, as it’s lying on the right side now… but I haven’t had a horse with a long mane since I was 15 or so. I’m reliving my childhood.

She was sleepy today.

Butt rope work with a polo was a complete non event. It’s something with rope-ropes that triggers kicking. I clipped a rope to the opposite side of the direction we were going and practiced snugging it up, and releasing. She scrunched on some snugs, but didn’t kick out. Really good girl today.

[cayuse]

She’s so cute. I wish I had a Grundy.

[endlessclimb]

For how poorly conformed her shoulder is, she’s actually a cute mover.

Great freedom of shoulder, too - put her foot in the feed bucket this morning pawing.

[PamnReba]

Can you come braid my mare’s mane? That’s really nice, and one I cannot seem to master.

[endlessclimb]

I can! But it always falls out once they start moving around - it has to be mega long for it to hold. Anyone have tips to make it stay?

[endlessclimb]

. We had a mini visitor.

[Lusoluv]

@PamnReba and @endlessclimb, the French braid will stay in well if you add in mane from the top AND bottom as you braid along. My guy’s mane is about 7" long for this braid. Also if the mane is tacky (spray a bit of water or quicbraid) on a dirty mane. Don’t shampoo or condition a few days before your show/clinic.