Had a less than thrilling farrier visit today.... NEW UPDATE #107

[One_Two_Three]

[QUOTE=Patty Lynch;8129165]
I work on a lot of WLD. Without radiographs, you don’t know for sure. What I do see for certain, is a thin soled horse with a really bad fungal wall infection that has delaminated his wall quite a way up. He might not be comfortable bare until he gets healthy walls. I see wall defects in horizontal lines, "V"s and sometimes the occasional “W” or “M”, but yours has the more common horizontal line defect, which is why it showed up suddenly without lameness. I would do a good chlorine dioxide soak (White Lightening (the gel is useless for your guy), Clean Trax, Oxine AH, etc) and if you are keeping him bare, carefully apply Durasole (avoid the coronary band), Crossapol or Keratex from the underside up into the delaminated area.

Water and poor nutrition are usually the culprits… and poor shoeing.

If he is sore, with his hoof conformation, I would urge shoes with pads - maybe just for a few cycles. He is suffering a bit from lack of structure and stability.

I’m not good at posting pictures here, but could put some on my FB page if you are interested in delamination correction.[/QUOTE]

Okay so that’s a bit concerning, considering my farrier said it was very mild and should ‘clear right up with white lightning gel’ …

He was very comfortable up until his trim Monday. He was sore for his last trim, got over it, and I had restarted him and ridden him this past month. Now he’s sore again, BUT after seeing him again last night, he is getting better. Almost completely fine in grass.

Water, poor nutrition, and poor shoeing are all things he dealt with. Not sure where the water damage came from, but the poor nutrition and poor shoeing are from the track, I am sure. The farrier said he had significant water damage to his hooves and trimmed back as much as he could. I wonder if that’s what caused the soreness. This farrier also did NOT recommend shoes at this time, and thinks that would hinder the process of transitioning him to barefoot.

So you can see where my frustration lies in this. I don’t know if I should trust my farrier or if I need to deal with a new one.

Also, talk about SUPER hard to keep his feet clean. The minute I turn away he’s searching for somewhere to get all dirty, feet included.

So you think I should be doing a white lightning soak instead of gel? Was told to apply the gel in the trouble areas. I suppose that soak vs gel doesn’t really matter to me, aside from the fact that I now have to order the soak…and the gel is due here tomorrow.

so frustrating. Also, the previous owner claims her farrier saw NO issues with his feet, aside from the corrective needs to transition his feet from race to barefoot. She said he mentioned NO WLD, and NO huge issues. This concerns me. Did this ALL show up in the last 30 days? Is she lying? Or is HER farrier just more incompetent than mine? I live in Florida, and don’t have many connections to figure out a ‘great’ farrier other than word of mouth.

[trubandloki]

I think you need to find a different farrier. Not because I think this one is bad or anything, but because you are, at this point, wanting to find things wrong with this farrier and it is not fair to the farrier to continue to have him work for you.

[QUOTE=One Two Three;8129759]
This farrier also did NOT recommend shoes at this time, and thinks that would hinder the process of transitioning him to barefoot. [/QUOTE]
Read what you wrote versus what the two (very smart) people recommending shoes are saying.
They are not talking about the transition to barefoot they are just trying to heal what is there.
If you ask ‘does this horse need shoes right now?’ you will get a very different answer than if you ask it ‘I want this horse to go barefoot, if we put shoes on right now will that hinder the process of transitioning?’.

The other owner saying there is nothing wrong might also be the other owner wanting to make the horse trade.

[JB]

The fact that the horse came up sore after the last 2 trims, then “grew” out of it, says the trim is wrong, at least for that horse.

It seems fairly clear to me, barring seeing the solar views, that the farrier did not remove the toe leverage that should have been removed. He did not reduce the leading edge of the long toes. If he brought the heels back/down where they belong, then he even increased the leverage there, and that might be what’s making him sore until he (the horse)does…something to change whatever - a little growth somewhere to add protection.

I do not, at all, understand the farrier’s mentality in saying shoes hinder the transition to barefoot The BEST way to get a horse barefoot, all else equal, is to keep him in shoes until his feet are in good shape. Keeping a sore-footed horse out of shoes for the sake of not putting shoes on, when he’s sore and not moving properly which will not help increase hoof growth or quality, makes absolutely no sense

[One_Two_Three]

[QUOTE=JB;8129803]
The fact that the horse came up sore after the last 2 trims, then “grew” out of it, says the trim is wrong, at least for that horse.

It seems fairly clear to me, barring seeing the solar views, that the farrier did not remove the toe leverage that should have been removed. He did not reduce the leading edge of the long toes. If he brought the heels back/down where they belong, then he even increased the leverage there, and that might be what’s making him sore until he (the horse)does…something to change whatever - a little growth somewhere to add protection.

I do not, at all, understand the farrier’s mentality in saying shoes hinder the transition to barefoot The BEST way to get a horse barefoot, all else equal, is to keep him in shoes until his feet are in good shape. Keeping a sore-footed horse out of shoes for the sake of not putting shoes on, when he’s sore and not moving properly which will not help increase hoof growth or quality, makes absolutely no sense [/QUOTE]

I have to agree with you. Though my long term goal is to keep shoes off this horse, I am NOT opposed to putting shoes on him while he transitions. I want him to be comfortable. I really wish I had been there for the appointment, because now as issues and questions come up, the farrier is getting increasingly hard to contact. I want to reiterate, that with my old horse, he was great, and I never had issues. this might be due to the fact that she had pretty easy feet and never had issues. I don’t want to dump my farrier, but I’m a bundle of nerves. Feet are obviously a very important thing to a horse.

I just got a text from my BO saying that Max’s coronary bands are ALL pink. Pink like, if I’m thinking it through, bruising. What gives?! Is it the concussion of walking funky due to being sore? Laminitis? (he is on a low starch low sugar diet) Would laminitis just show up like this even if it was festering for a long time? I mean the damn horse ran a race 2/27, and now here we are 2 months later where nothing but GOOD changes have taken place, and we’re running into weird issues. I have yet another call into my farrier to help answer my questions and concerns about my boy’s feet.

If I don’t hear from him by 5pm today (been waiting for a call back since yesterday morning RE: everything overall) I plan on calling the farrier suggested to me, who works on another horse at our barn, to at least come take a look and evaluate. I don’t have time to sit around waiting 48 hours for a 10 minute phone conversation that would either end in “I’ll be out to see what’s going on” or “Your horse is fine, relax”…I just want answers and I am not getting them. I mean, I AM getting them, from all you fine people, but seriously, he needs to see a farrier who can take the time to explain these things and give me the proper RX to remedy the situations.

:grief::(

[JB]

In his detoxing, fragile state, even with things improving, it could be that being sore footed again has induced some laminitis. Is his post-trim soreness improving, not improving, or getting worse?

Are his feet wet? Any extra dew on the grass?

Some farriers simply cannot do a good job on any feet that are anything but good already, no matter how good a job they do on the good ones

[One_Two_Three]

[QUOTE=JB;8130016]
In his detoxing, fragile state, even with things improving, it could be that being sore footed again has induced some laminitis. Is his post-trim soreness improving, not improving, or getting worse?

Are his feet wet? Any extra dew on the grass?

Some farriers simply cannot do a good job on any feet that are anything but good already, no matter how good a job they do on the good ones :([/QUOTE]

As of last night, he was improving in his ability to walk. Clearly still footsore, and very very worried about where he was putting his feet, but better than the 24 hours after the trim. He comes in from turn out moving much much better than he does when you pull him out of his stall. He seems to walk a TON better in the grass. I will see him again after work, and evaluate if he is still getting better.

His feet DO get wet, but when I see them during the week, they’re always dry (coming from his stall–which is dry). He IS on dewy grass all night long. The downfall about night time turn out in Florida is that the dew starts right after sunset and doesn’t go away until many hours into the morning light. I think this is part of what may have caused his ‘water damaged’ feet, at the old owner’s he was out 24/7 and had NO break from wet ground. Here he is exposed to it all night. Lose lose.

The farrier texted back my BO (NOT ME!!??) asking if Max paws or knocks gates. He paws occasionally in the cross ties when he wants attention, but NOT alone, NOT in his stall, and does NOT hit gates. How would his back feet get concussed at the coronary band from pawing, anyway?

I feel like I am worrying maybe a bit more than I should, but really, I want to get this under control BEFORE huge issues arise. All I want is my guy to be comfortable. Instead of being off for two weeks while he recovers from being trimmed, if he had shoes on, we wouldn’t be having a setback in his re-start training right now. :no:

Do I wave the white flag and call in a different guy?

Do I wait it out? so many questions still unanswered by the farrier that it just makes me lose trust in him. The other guy said “anytime you need anything, if your guy isnt available, I’m more than happy to help where I can!”…that keeps resignating in my mind. Apparently farriers have a LOT of drama in my area, as I am learning. I would hate to cause a stir. But the guy already comes out for a different boarder, and it seems my guy is more and more unwilling to help, like I am being a pest. I had high high regards for him before this came up!

[One_Two_Three]

So I hear lots of horse people who have had issues with their horse’s feet end up getting into farrier work. maybe I have a new career path to start an education in… sigh.

[ChocoMare]

You’re right, 1-2-3 - That’s how I got into it.

Cover my gas & day off from work and I’ll be glad to drive down from Georgia and offer any assistance.

[One_Two_Three]

[QUOTE=ChocoMare;8130130]
You’re right, 1-2-3 - That’s how I got into it.

Cover my gas & day off from work and I’ll be glad to drive down from Georgia and offer any assistance.[/QUOTE]

so close, yet so far away!

I seriously am so gracious to those of you on here with very informative things to add. It doesn’t help my nerves any, but I am a nervous horse mom anyway. It’s just my personality. This one is super special. My pony mare was really special, too, but I knew it my heart she was just a project. This guy is to be my real deal long term ride or die type of horse. so I’m even more a mess over things that pop up.

still fighting with whether I want to call in the other guy. I mean, for $35 I can either have piece of mind that what my farrier suggested and is doing, is correct, OR, I can have a farrier with a different approach (and presumably following along the protocol of those on here) to help get Max back on track quicker than waiting 4 weeks to find out he’s worse!

[JB]

While it’s appreciative that the farrier is looking for all possible answers to why the feet are the way they are, the manner in which he’s going about this is, to me, not acceptable. Not getting back to you, getting harder to get hold of, and finally going to the BO and not you directly? No thanks. His heart might be in the right place, but his behavior suggests he’s in over his head and doesn’t want to admit it.

I don’t think you need to be panicking (not that you are), but I do think a change has to be made sooner rather than later.

[Mosey_2003]

If you’re this worried, by all means call the other farrier.

[One_Two_Three]

[QUOTE=Mosey_2003;8130167]
If you’re this worried, by all means call the other farrier.[/QUOTE]

I think the reason I am getting so worked up, is as JB pointed out, the way in which my farrier is going about it. It makes me think that there IS something, and that he’s too embarassed/doesn’t want to/can’t handle the situation properly.

I suppose, then, that that has answered my own debate on whether or not to call, huh? :yes:

[Patty_Lynch]

[QUOTE=JB;8129803]
The BEST way to get a horse barefoot, all else equal, is to keep him in shoes until his feet are in good shape. Keeping a sore-footed horse out of shoes for the sake of not putting shoes on, when he’s sore and not moving properly which will not help increase hoof growth or quality, makes absolutely no sense [/QUOTE]

AMEN!!!:yes:

Your horse has tissue paper walls right now. No wall support and a saturated foot can mean big trouble. Sore = inflammation. Inflammation IS laminitis. Laminitis means bone loss. Bone loss means an unhappy barefoot horse. Don’t ruin his chances.

Dr. Richard Mansmann and I chatted once about wet feet and non painful rotation. We have both seen it.

I’m not certain you need to look for a new farrier. You need to get your horse comfortable, however that may be.

If there was a non shoe method that would allow air to the fungus and give your horse the support he needs, I would suggest it. You can’t cast these, you can’t boot them. Well, you can, but lets not go there because your horse will end up worse off.

Get a better foot and you will have greater success barefoot.

[Patty_Lynch]

[QUOTE=JB;8129803]
The BEST way to get a horse barefoot, all else equal, is to keep him in shoes until his feet are in good shape. Keeping a sore-footed horse out of shoes for the sake of not putting shoes on, when he’s sore and not moving properly which will not help increase hoof growth or quality, makes absolutely no sense [/QUOTE]

AMEN!!!:yes:

Your horse has tissue paper walls right now. No wall support and a saturated foot can mean big trouble. Sore = inflammation. Inflammation IS laminitis. Laminitis means bone loss. Bone loss means an unhappy barefoot horse. Don’t ruin his chances.

Dr. Richard Mansmann and I chatted once about wet feet and non painful rotation. We have both seen it.

I’m not certain you need to look for a new farrier. You need to get your horse comfortable, however that may be.

If there was a non shoe method that would allow air to the fungus and give your horse the support he needs, I would suggest it. You can’t cast these, you can’t boot them. Well, you can, but lets not go there because your horse will end up worse off.

Get a better foot and you will have greater success barefoot.

[One_Two_Three]

[QUOTE=Patty Lynch;8130190]
AMEN!!!:yes:

Your horse has tissue paper walls right now. No wall support and a saturated foot can mean big trouble. Sore = inflammation. Inflammation IS laminitis. Laminitis means bone loss. Bone loss means an unhappy barefoot horse. Don’t ruin his chances.

Dr. Richard Mansmann and I chatted once about wet feet and non painful rotation. We have both seen it.

I’m not certain you need to look for a new farrier. You need to get your horse comfortable, however that may be.

If there was a non shoe method that would allow air to the fungus and give your horse the support he needs, I would suggest it. You can’t cast these, you can’t boot them. Well, you can, but lets not go there because your horse will end up worse off.

Get a better foot and you will have greater success barefoot.[/QUOTE]

any suggestions on how to talk with (my) or another farrier about suggesting throwing some shoes on him while he heals up? I don’t want to outright say, YOU, my friend, ARE WRONG! Max needs shoes! But I am a passive person, and if they say “no shoes” I just go, hmm okay.

Glad you pointed out the boots, because someone at the farm suggested doing that. Honestly, if he only needs shoes for a couple cycles, boots end up being more expensive to buy anyway, and I’m not convinced they are worthy of any thought.

[Patty_Lynch]

Any farrier that won’t put shoes on a foot sore horse, is one you don’t want.

He might feel badly that your horse is sore after his trim. For him to expect that horse not to be sore, is sort of unrealistic though. But that’s what you are dealing with. Emotions and political correctness.

If you call him and tell him you’d like shoes because your horse is ouchy and he is defensive and not cooperative. Move on.

[Mosey_2003]

Honestly, and this may just be me, but I would be more willing to fire the farrier for going behind my back to the BO than the work he’s done. That sort of thing really chaps my hide.

[Patty_Lynch]

[QUOTE=Mosey_2003;8130249]
Honestly, and this may just be me, but I would be more willing to fire the farrier for going behind my back to the BO than the work he’s done. That sort of thing really chaps my hide.[/QUOTE]

Not just you. It was unprofessional. Too bad professionalism doesn’t make a competent farrier though.

He may be reluctant to shoe him because your horse has some scary walls. That would indicate that he isn’t competent perhaps and you need to find someone who is.

Max DOES need to be soaked BEFORE shoeing if at ALL possible. Can’t do it with them on.

[One_Two_Three]

[QUOTE=Patty Lynch;8130266]
Not just you. It was unprofessional. Too bad professionalism doesn’t make a competent farrier though.

He may be reluctant to shoe him because your horse has some scary walls. That would indicate that he isn’t competent perhaps and you need to find someone who is.

Max DOES need to be soaked BEFORE shoeing if at ALL possible. Can’t do it with them on.[/QUOTE]

Now, do you have any suggestion on what I can be doing for his feet until the bottle of white lightning soak comes in?? I have been keeping his feet as clean as I can since diagnosis and sprayed banixx (just because it says WLD on it, and it’s something I had laying around) on the affected areas. The white lightning gel comes tomorrow, and I bet I won’t see the bottle of white lightning soak show up until mid next week if I order today. Is there anything else I could be doing that might be more accessible in the mean time? Would it help (or at least not hurt) to apply the gel while we wait? Tractor supply is our big ‘store’ to carry stuff, and they have NOTHING helpful. The feed stores typically carry ONE bottle of the white lightning and so it’s rarely ever in stock when I go.

[Patty_Lynch]

Bah… this is why all farriers should carry it. Nothing personal to owners, but I do it. That way I know it’s done (correctly). Plus, it has to be done on naked feet.

While you wait, Crossapol, Keratex hardener, or Durasole, applied with the foot up, so it goes up the wall separation. Last ditch would be Betadine. Paint his soles as well.