I think you should just ask him to take a look and tell you what he thinks is going on, and if he identifies problems, how to fix them. If he doesn’t mention some of the issues that people here have pointed out, then you could ask some specific questions about those issues to get his take.
Perfect! Thank you both! Here’s to hoping…
I’ll be back with updates as soon as I get some info.
[QUOTE=BoyleHeightsKid;8219643]
You do not want more weight on underrun heels. The pressure needs to come off the heels, trimming them back where they need to be, distributing the weight more evenly across the back of the foot by letting the frog share in the weight bearing and backing up the toe. The heels don’t need subtle trimming, they need to go period.[/QUOTE]
I don’t understand where you write pressure needs to come off the heels but trim them back to distribute the weight across the back of the foot. Weight them but don’t?
When I wrote “subtle trimming” I meant as in to move the heels back to the widest part of the frog. Subltle meaning you don’t have a lot of vertical heel height to work with. Also subtle because you may have to trim more of the quarters such that the heels (that have now been moved back), can actually physically be weighted.
Quick mini update after chatting with the new farrier.
LOVE him already, very personable as I said, and gave me a little insight without even seeing the feet/photos.
He mentioned that he knows who I was using (as I said) and that while he would never badmouth anybody, he’s seen similar issues with horses who require a different approach, and went on to discuss how everyone has different methods and different thoughts, but that obviously this is not working for my horse.
His first thoughts (without seeing the feet, or photos) are that there’s a good chance the toe is too long, and because he might not have a whole lot of heel, if the toe length isn’t being maintained, and the angles are off, we’re going to run into issues with the heel. He made a good point which was the part that i was waiting to hear, which was that chances are my farrier was looking ONLY at the vertical angle of the backs, instead of the whole picture and really getting them in line (paraphrasing, there was a lot of chatting). He says he has been dealing with quite a few horses that don’t have the proper ratio in the area (presumably other horses worked on by my farrier–he has a LOT of work in the area)…
anyways, he hasn’t seen Max’s feet or photos of the feet, so this was all speculation talking, but I am very grateful that he took the time to explain what COULD be wrong. He said he is very interested to see what is going on, and will be giving me a call back when he has his book in front of him tomorrow to set up a consultation of sorts, willing to do some adjustments if he can, otherwise he’ll come back out when Max is due.
So far feeling very optimistic. I don’t know anything yet, but to give me a run down of scenarios based off of me saying “the angles don’t seem right, I don’t know, but the hind feet just look WRONG” makes me feel like he really cares and is dedicated to getting my horse back on track!
[QUOTE=Pippigirl;8220574]
I don’t understand where you write pressure needs to come off the heels but trim them back to distribute the weight across the back of the foot. Weight them but don’t?.[/QUOTE]
More often than not heels that are underrun have too much pressure on them for whatever the reason/cause is. The heels are there, but are too long and because of the pressure on them (because they are too long) they run forward. Get the pressure off of them by letting the structures of the back of the foot share in the weight and the heels can widen and grow in the direction they need too. New growth follows the old, so the heels must go and I would want my farrier to be as aggressive as possible without making my horse sore. I bet one correct trim on this horse will make a huge improvement. A horse with conformation such as this naturally puts more weight on the heels because of the way he’s built making him always prone to this so the farrier will have to pull his heels and toes back every single visit and not ever let them go once.
Just to be clear… You said trim the quarters so heels will be weighted. They have too much weight on them already.
New farrier appointment is TODAY! I’m SO happy. It’s currently pouring rain, and farriers around here are allergic to rain and tend to bolt at the sign of rain, so I hope it clears up or he ruffs it to see my guy today anyways.
I don’t know if I’m being hyper sensitive or not, but we had a lesson Saturday and my horse was a train wreck. I use that term, but in reality it wasn’t all that bad. He was resisting a lot and putting up a bit of a temper tantrum. We knew he wasn’t feeling well, and I think it was his hind end. Between hind gut and sore legs…what do I expect?
His left rear ankle has mild effusion, as noted when the doc took a look at him when I first got him. Just racing wear and tear, no harm, no foul, likely just fluid and of course it’s more noticeable after he’s been in his stall all day. He’s SOUND knock on wood but I feel like the strain on his hinds (like, NO support) is really starting to take a toll on his ankles/lower limb tendons and muscles all the way up to his back. He’s more body sore following this trim (though not lame as he had walked away lame last two trims…) and that concerns me. I’m going to do whatever I can to help those back feet to better support my horse. His ankle wasn’t as puffy prior to this trim so the only thing I can point a finger at (aside from coincidence and bad timing) is the trim.
Fingers crossed for a great consultation and hopefully some corrective measures can be implemented.
Also notable to add, my horse’s right front (where that old blown abscess line is) took a chunk right up to the abscess line…he’s still sound but it looks pretty gnarly and I’m hoping in the next few weeks that can slowly be trimmed up. Looks scary right now.
How did it go?
Okay so, after our first trim, I’ve got to say so far I LOVE this new farrier. He was very good about keeping his integrity, but in so many words we discussed my previous farrier and how he’s had to fix a lot of the same issues my horse’s feet are having.
The most notable thing was that in measuring his right side vs his left side, there was a significant variance in length in both toe and heel (heel mostly on the fronts as the backs are both pretty equally underrun & overtrimmed). He didn’t want to say for sure, but chances are considering this horse was trimmed a week and a half ago, this is a farrier problem NOT a horse running around cock-eyed, especially considering he had ONE ride between that trim and this.
He had to take a bit off of the right front heel to help it match the left front heel. It’s interesting to add that in the course of this week, my horse has had mild effusion in his hind ankles (moreso left) and a little bit in his front left. We can’t say for sure, but there’s a good chance walking around so lopsided for 1.5 weeks could cause some serious strain on those joints and tendons. This horse has stayed sound (thank you god) and I’m hoping we’ve remedied the situation before things get any worse.
Max took a big chunk out of his foot right where the old abscess line was, about two days after the first (bad) trim, and this farrier remedied it right up. It’s going to be ugly for a while, but he took the pressure off, cleaned it up really well, and said it should help prevent cracks from running into the good wall/above where the actual abscess line was. Same for the chunk on the other front, which got trimmed down a lot from the last trim, however he rasped it back a bit so there’s no pressure on it as well.
He didn’t want to definatley say that it was all the old farrier’s wrong-doing, but he was in a round-about kind of way getting to that point. He thinks we can fix the heels, and his first impression is that the old farrier was overly aggressive about trimming the hind heels, presumably to rid the foot of the damaged old junk. He said we will have a much bigger better picture when we get through this cycle and see what the feet look like now that he’s done the trim.
He too mentioned the negative palmar angle issue, and said that if we got rad’s there’s a good chance that’s what we might see, however he believes that with a few correct trims this will likely be less an issue and more something to just stay aware of. The difference in the way my horse was standing in the hinds from before to after was remarkable. Instead of having his feet stuffed up under him, putting all that strain on his tendons and ankles, he was standing much more square, even, and comfortably.
He did about 45 minutes of work, a mere week and a half after his last trim. That tells me there was much to be done to help these feet that my previous farrier didn’t care to do.
I’m still mulling over the idea of getting rads, especially if he keeps having effusion in his hinds, which was hardly noticeable two months ago when the vet saw him, and in this last week have really puffed up (still not bad, but more noticeable than ever before)…I think I’ll see how the next few days go with the new trim, considering it was like he was walking on uneven legs for the last week and a half, with them parked up under him and stressed.
I took pictures, but his feet got super gross almost instantly after the trim, thanks to him pooping and gravitating towards standing in his nice fresh alfalfa manure. I’ll probably get some this weekend when I’m out there.
I intend to keep updating as we progress through the next 5 weeks. He’s back out in 2.5 weeks for another client and told me he’d let me know when he was coming so that I could be there and we could take a peek at his feet to see how he’s coming along. This farrier’s attention to detail was amazing. Just the very small act of having a book with notes from each trim for each horse…wow’ed me compared to the last farrier. He knows what he did, what was wrong, and what we want to accomplish. The last guy too his best guess and ran with it.
okay I have a picture that didn’t have poop on it. Just some trimmings under the foot…
THIS was the picture after his trim LAST week. Notice all that crap in the toe area that he didn’t bother to clean up. It was likely that the reason he chipped up and tore off a chunk up to the abscess line was because it got caught up in that crap and then of course, tore up the weakest route.
THIS is from yesterday. It is going to be UGLY for a while. But my new guy took the pressure off the weak area, and cleaned everything up really well to hopefully prevent a snag up and further damage to the surrounding good healthy strong hoof.
There’s no way around the ugliness, but he is walking so much better than he was, I can’t help but smile. It’s likely that between the super off back feet, the super differences between left and right, and the chunks off both front feet, my horse should be lame. He’s not, but clearly he isn’t comfortable either.
On to bigger and better! Hoping for an upward trend here on out! The fronts are doing pretty well despite the chunks, and I hope to see similar results with the hinds now!
Nice wowrk. I would wait for rads for a while. Let this farrier work on him to get him pretty much to just where you (both) want him. When he’s going as good as the farrier can get him, and you are riding him, and he’s going as well as you, farrier and vet seeme to be able to get him, maybe get rads then, to take stock. That will give you an idea if anything more needs to be done, or any changes.
Basically, do your best by the horse and don’t invite more worries until you’ve done everything which seems appropriate. If there are still problems, do rads then.
Its like the physicians who test our patients for seizures. You treat the patient, not the EEG. So, with you, you treat the patient, the horse, so he is sound and moving well. You don’t want to take rads until he’s going well, because then what do you do with the rads? THere are almost always problems if you look for them hard enough.
I have a horse who has rads from age 2 showing OCD lesions in his hind. He hasn’t been lame, or stiff, or off - yet - so I am not going to do more rads at this point. What would I do with them? Start treating for something which isn’t bothering him? If I saw something, then I have to address it. I will do rads if he starts having problems I can’t address without them.
Just a though about rads. Wait and see how well you can get him going just be having him shod and trimmed correctly. Then see if anything you might find on rads would actually help.
[QUOTE=Ambitious Kate;8232393]
Nice wowrk. I would wait for rads for a while. Let this farrier work on him to get him pretty much to just where you (both) want him. When he’s going as good as the farrier can get him, and you are riding him, and he’s going as well as you, farrier and vet seeme to be able to get him, maybe get rads then, to take stock. That will give you an idea if anything more needs to be done, or any changes.
Basically, do your best by the horse and don’t invite more worries until you’ve done everything which seems appropriate. If there are still problems, do rads then.
Its like the physicians who test our patients for seizures. You treat the patient, not the EEG. So, with you, you treat the patient, the horse, so he is sound and moving well. You don’t want to take rads until he’s going well, because then what do you do with the rads? THere are almost always problems if you look for them hard enough.
I have a horse who has rads from age 2 showing OCD lesions in his hind. He hasn’t been lame, or stiff, or off - yet - so I am not going to do more rads at this point. What would I do with them? Start treating for something which isn’t bothering him? If I saw something, then I have to address it. I will do rads if he starts having problems I can’t address without them.
Just a though about rads. Wait and see how well you can get him going just be having him shod and trimmed correctly. Then see if anything you might find on rads would actually help.[/QUOTE]
You’re completely right. I know from my horse’s history that if I had the opportunity to do a full scan of him inside and out, I’d likely die of a panic attack. There are probably some questionable things that hypothetically could spell doom for him, but might not cause any issues. It does make me feel a bit better knowing that this puffiness in the legs only showed up after the first trim (and one ride), so it all kind of makes sense that it’s hoof related, and the drastic difference in the way his hinds stood under him when the trim was done made me feel a ton better about the negative angle. Farrier kind of said the same thing, like, “hey, this COULD be a problem, but it might NEVER be a problem, but if we need something to help with the trim, I’ll let you know, just keep it in the back of your mind.”
My BO text me after I wrote the update this morning saying that Max wasn’t lame (he has been lame after previous trims though) but seemed to be walking funky. she wasn’t sure whether it was “woohoo it’s breakfast time hurry up and get me back to my stall” walking or if it was “something hurts” walking, or even “this is different feeling” walking. I guess it makes sense on the last of those options, walking around with such a difference between your right side and left side. That’d be like me walking in a flat shoe on my left foot and a high heel on my right (not as extreme but you get the gist) for a week and a half. I’d expect to be sore, and also feel funny while I got used to walking normal again. I’ll be out this evening to take a peek.
Glad to hear it went well and that this farrier echoed what we talked about!!
[QUOTE=ChocoMare;8232566]
Glad to hear it went well and that this farrier echoed what we talked about!![/QUOTE]
Thank you for your continued support and help! Hoping to have remedied the situation before it got any further out of hand!
With my funky-footed horse, I found it useful to get a vet and farrier that work well together (Took some trial and error to get this!) Then the vet did “shoeing rads” with particular angles and markers. This allowed them both to see the structures and angles. They consulted on solutions. The vet kind of said what needed to happen and the farrier contributed the how.
The results didn’t look textbook, but they worked for my horses internal structure!
[QUOTE=MsM;8232801]
With my funky-footed horse, I found it useful to get a vet and farrier that work well together (Took some trial and error to get this!) Then the vet did “shoeing rads” with particular angles and markers. This allowed them both to see the structures and angles. They consulted on solutions. The vet kind of said what needed to happen and the farrier contributed the how.
The results didn’t look textbook, but they worked for my horses internal structure![/QUOTE]
yes this is the plan, should the farrier decide it’s to that point. Right now we aren’t that far along, or in that dyer of a situation. I’m planning on some rads of his ankles in the future (or sooner if some of the minor stuff doesn’t clear up) and will speak with the vet on their thoughts as far as shooting some for the farrier. The new farrier is more than happy to work with my vet, should the need arrise, but he said over and over last evening that we aren’t that bad off, and that it’s just something to think about, but not act on, at this time.
Hopefully not needed, but thanks for the thought, MsM! It’s very important to have a vet/farrier that will work together. My old farrier was also willing to work with the vet, however, the trim was just so awful (looking back, knowing what I know now from here and from my appointment with the new guy last night) that I wouldn’t want him to work with my vet. This new guy is on board but doesn’t see it as necessary unless we come across some worsening or strange things on the next check (2.5 weeks) and next trim (5 weeks)
