Had a less than thrilling farrier visit today.... NEW UPDATE #107

[One_Two_Three]

[QUOTE=BoyleHeightsKid;8218901]
shakes head He’s not wearing down his heels. Apparently he does not understand how to correctly manage those feet.

You might benefit by shopping for a new farrier.[/QUOTE]

I don’t disagree. I would think that I would notice wear in that area over the course of riding between trims, no? I’ll have to take photos over the next few weeks to get an idea. FWIW, he’s ridden in a grass arena. He’s almost exclusively on grass, aside from in stall, of course. How is he wearing down heel in grass? These are things I will ask when we meet up next week.

My biggest fear is that he’s going to tell me the horse needs shoes. Which I am against doing in his case. My digging around online tells me that shoes don’t do much for underrun heels, aside potentially making them less tender, but in the process possibly creating a further underrun heel, or contracting them more.

The original purpose of this thread back in April was me on the ledge debating on switching farriers. I’m almost there again. But then he had such marked improvement in the overall health of hoof tissue, that I held off. But now I’m wondering again. Not to mention the rushed job he did on the horse’s feet this time. I don’t know. :no:

SIGH

[findeight]

You would be switching service providers, not seeking a divorce here. If, in your gut based on your information and the opinions of knowledgeable horse people changing service providers would be beneficial? Do it.

Dont let a provider who would be losing income if you switched talk you out of it. I’m not a big hoof expert, just a long time owner, but I don’t really think he knows what he’s talking about while I do think JB and some of the others who have posted their opinion you should switch do know what they are talking about.

The idea his feet are wearing unevenly despite a correct trim? Sounds like BS to me. Why not try somebody else? He’s not your friend, it’s a business relationship, you are free to change without guilt.

[Pippigirl]

[QUOTE=One Two Three;8218775]
RH 5/25 (not standing square)

LH 5/25

pre trim from 5/25

what does that tell you vs the 4/27 and the 7/6 pictures? It seems the heel is more consistent with the 5/25 and the 7/6 picture vs the 4/27. So is this still indicative of negative changes in month 1 to month 2 to month 3? I don’t have a good eye for this stuff, but I think I see what you mean, and that does concern me.

Any thoughts on what might cause this, before I freak out to the farrier?[/QUOTE]

Without a solar view to go on, it looks to me like the farrier is letting the heels get underrun on the hinds while trying to ‘get’ more heel. It’ll take subtle trimming to get the heels back. He may have to trim more of the quarters to allow the heels to become weighted. In all fairness it can be tricky to do.

[stb]

For what it’s worth, here’s my take on a farrier (or any health provider, really) who is doing a less than good job. There are two possibilities as to why:

1. They don’t know any better and are doing the best they can.
2. They do know better, but don’t care enough to do the job right.

Either one is unacceptable to me. Your horse is getting worse behind. I would be shopping for a new trimmer/farrier.

[alibi_18]

But if her farrier was doing a geat job and her horse was just finally fine, she’d had nothing to write on her blog…

[Ambitious_Kate]

Its clear that neither you nor your farrier have a clue about how his feet should be managed.

I had a farrier allow my horse’s heels to start to become underrun. In ONE shoeing. He didn’t get a second chance to pick up one of my horse’s feet.

Good luck justifying your farrier. If you don’t want it done right, stick with what you’ve got.

I mean, really!! 75 days!!

[SuckerForHorses]

In fairness to the OP, she has said several times that she does not have in depth knowledge of hooves; and really, that IS what professionals are for (in theory). So the OP has come here asking for opinions.

I don’t think we need to rake the OP over the coals when its not like she’s blowing off everyone’s opinions and insisting her farrier is doing a perfect job.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

Most likely rads of those hind feet are going to show a negative palmar angle. That is BAD and will most likely make him sore behind, in his back AND puts more stress on all the internal structures of the hoof, limb etc. making him more prone to injury. They already have a way of hurting themselves on nothing, lets not help them along further.

Get a new farrier… Now… The longer this goes on, the harder it’s going to be to correct, will Ef up your horse more and will cost you more money.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

[QUOTE=Pippigirl;8219453]
Without a solar view to go on, it looks to me like the farrier is letting the heels get underrun on the hinds while trying to ‘get’ more heel. It’ll take subtle trimming to get the heels back. He may have to trim more of the quarters to allow the heels to become weighted. In all fairness it can be tricky to do.[/QUOTE]

You do not want more weight on underrun heels. The pressure needs to come off the heels, trimming them back where they need to be, distributing the weight more evenly across the back of the foot by letting the frog share in the weight bearing and backing up the toe. The heels don’t need subtle trimming, they need to go period.

[One_Two_Three]

[QUOTE=SuckerForHorses;8219625]
In fairness to the OP, she has said several times that she does not have in depth knowledge of hooves; and really, that IS what professionals are for (in theory). So the OP has come here asking for opinions.

I don’t think we need to rake the OP over the coals when its not like she’s blowing off everyone’s opinions and insisting her farrier is doing a perfect job.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, SuckerforHorses, I have never said I was a foot expert, quite the opposite. If I knew what I needed to know, I wouldn’t be asking for opinions, or posting updates.

As for the stupid comment by alibi_18, I’ve already seen some of your stupid snarky comments this morning, and yours here made me laugh. If you actually read the blog you would know I actually update more about POSITIVE things in my horse’s life, rather than the negative. So your comment doesn’t really fit here…move along now.

Farrier never got back to me about meeting next week, so I’ve decided if he wants to do that, he can, but in the mean time, I have a call into another farrier to come out and take a look at what I’ve got, and give me his opinion, advice, and potentially set something up when the horse is due again, unless there are changes/touches to be made at the time of this visit. I’m ready to break up with my farrier. It’s not fair to my horse, or smart on my part to continue a relationship with someone who is either seemingly unworried by my horse’s condition, or just as uneducated as I am about the feet.

I did take some solar shots, as requested by ChocoMare (not on here) and someone else on here. They were quick and it was starting to rain, so apologies on the ickiness, We had to up and move real quick as the lightning started.

LEFT Hind Sole

Right Hind sole

Thank you for those who continue to offer educated responses. If you want to be snarky and immature, that’s fine too, but don’t expect me to backlash and start a fight as you wish. I’ve got important things to worry about, other than throwing gasoline on your fire.

[JB]

[QUOTE=SuckerForHorses;8219625]
In fairness to the OP, she has said several times that she does not have in depth knowledge of hooves; and really, that IS what professionals are for (in theory). So the OP has come here asking for opinions.

I don’t think we need to rake the OP over the coals when its not like she’s blowing off everyone’s opinions and insisting her farrier is doing a perfect job.[/QUOTE]

Thank you. Goodness. OTT has been such a dedicated owner in not only updating her threads, but trying to learn and do as much as she can to do the right thing by her horses.

Yep, feet are not her forte They don’t need to be everyone’s forte, but I’m sure she is realizing now just how much she doesn’t know, and will hopefully be remedying that. The best way is to study healthy feed, so you will at least know when they don’t look healthy. That’s how guys at the Fed learn about counterfeit money - they study the real deal until they are blue in the face, so the fake stuff is easy(ier) to spot.

I’d suggest www.barefoothorse.com. Disregard the anti-shoe comments I just find it one of the best sites in terms of showing healthy feet, describing what’s going on inside, and before/after pictures.

The heels on the hinds are underrun. It makes my head HURT to hear farriers say heels like this are “worn down”, or “they don’t grow”, because that’s just BS. They are there, they are long and they need to be trimmed back where they belong - at the back of the foot, not running up under it.

Now I better understand why the fronts improved. The farrier is only looking at vertical height as his guideline. He saw (rightfully so) tall heels in front, so he’s been trimming then down (which also moves them back).

I’m really not sure what he’s looking at for the hinds. They were not all that bad to begin with - nice short heels and toes. Looking at the progression again, I am not even sure he’s ever trimmed the hinds, just maybe rolled the walls (and sloppily at that). As a result things have just become overgrown. My TB mare will start to develop a bit of a bullnose profile if I don’t trim her often enough. It has to do at least partly with heels that crush as they get long, and in her case, she also builds too much vertical toe height, which just compounds the crushed heels. Her fronts don’t do that, the heels grow, yes, but they don’t crush.

A new farrier is, sadly, needed, because this one can’t fix these feet.

[One_Two_Three]

[QUOTE=JB;8219811]
Thank you. Goodness. OTT has been such a dedicated owner in not only updating her threads, but trying to learn and do as much as she can to do the right thing by her horses.

Yep, feet are not her forte They don’t need to be everyone’s forte, but I’m sure she is realizing now just how much she doesn’t know, and will hopefully be remedying that. The best way is to study healthy feed, so you will at least know when they don’t look healthy. That’s how guys at the Fed learn about counterfeit money - they study the real deal until they are blue in the face, so the fake stuff is easy(ier) to spot.

I’d suggest www.barefoothorse.com. Disregard the anti-shoe comments I just find it one of the best sites in terms of showing healthy feet, describing what’s going on inside, and before/after pictures.

The heels on the hinds are underrun. It makes my head HURT to hear farriers say heels like this are “worn down”, or “they don’t grow”, because that’s just BS. They are there, they are long and they need to be trimmed back where they belong - at the back of the foot, not running up under it.

Now I better understand why the fronts improved. The farrier is only looking at vertical height as his guideline. He saw (rightfully so) tall heels in front, so he’s been trimming then down (which also moves them back).

I’m really not sure what he’s looking at for the hinds. They were not all that bad to begin with - nice short heels and toes. Looking at the progression again, I am not even sure he’s ever trimmed the hinds, just maybe rolled the walls (and sloppily at that). As a result things have just become overgrown. My TB mare will start to develop a bit of a bullnose profile if I don’t trim her often enough. It has to do at least partly with heels that crush as they get long, and in her case, she also builds too much vertical toe height, which just compounds the crushed heels. Her fronts don’t do that, the heels grow, yes, but they don’t crush.

A new farrier is, sadly, needed, because this one can’t fix these feet.[/QUOTE]

I have been poking around that site since last night, trying to better educate myself so I can vet out the new farrier coming out for a peek at the feet. Lots of good information there, I still get a bit turned around, but I’m kind of grasping some concepts a little better, and I absolutely can see the negative changes in his heels from the progression picture. I even was able to half-way explain what was going on to one of my barn friends (also foot clueless) and once we started pulling horses out to compare to him, namely those trimmed by other farriers, it was a sobering moment. My horse is maybe a centimeter from walking on the bulbs of his heels depending on how he is moving.

I am hoping that the guy I contacted can give me some good insight, and say all the “right” things that I’ve heard here, researched, etc. He came well recommended by not only the boarder who uses him, but by my chiro, and two BNTs who used him in Wellington. I have met him before, and he’s extremely personable, seems like he will be easier to talk to than my current guy. If not, or if the answers are similar to my current, I’ll have to move down the list to the next ones. I’ve got at least two others who come highly recommended. Fingers crossed.

I do realize the importance of my horse’s feet. I really really do. And it’s not a disregard on my part about the feet. It’s me having a very hard time ‘getting it’…but thankfully, dumbing it down, and reading what I have over the last 12 hours, has made it a little easier to at least follow what is being said, and being able to better identify what’s going on.

JB you’re right about the headache on worn down heels. When he said that, I was more than a little confused, as was the BO when I told her. There’s no way in heck this horse is being worked in such a manner that would cause worn down heels, not where he’s kept, not what he’s ridden on. You know it’s a sad day in my life when I realize that his first 30 days after having race plates pulled were the best his heels have been since. I feel like I’m failing the horse. I always feel that way, with every aspect. Thankfully, I seem to be able to come out of it, and find my way through it, but I find myself immersed with guilt for not realizing the issues, and thinking all was sugar-cubes and candy canes with his feet.

Hoping to have more answers, and better yet, solutions, following the meeting with new farrier.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

The only way you would be failing your horse would be if you knew what was going on but didn’t care and did nothing about it.

Give yourself a break… Many of us here went through the same learning curve you are going through now. That usually happens when you start running into problems and then start asking questions. When that happened to me and my boy, I didn’t like the answers I got so I started looking for the right answers. It took 4 farriers before I finally found the one that understands how to manage him. For 4 or 5 years I took pictures of his feet to compare to the year before. When I showed some of those first pictures to my current farrier his eyes literally popped out of his head. He couldn’t believe Boy was still doing his job with those feet.

[JB]

The best owners are the hardest on themselves when things don’t go well, whether it’s out of their control, or they’ve realized they didn’t know enough. If only more were like that

You will hopefully learn to not take it personally. Being in a state of unconscious incompetence is where everyone starts with everything at some point. The desire to progress through conscious incompetence (where you are now with feet) into conscious competence, is what will make you better, and your horse better for it.

[One_Two_Three]

Thank you both for the thoughtful words. Still waiting to hear back from the new farrier, but I will absolutely be updating once again when I hear something, and hopefully an action plan to remedy the situation.

My biggest fear is the strain of his back leg tendons and muscles. He’s already set up for failure with race wear and longer than normal pasterns, so I’m going to become crazy momma about getting those feet in line to ensure I am doing everything that I can to support those puppies!

[JB]

The good thing is that this NPA (negative palmar angle) hasn’t been going on for long, and likely has not resulted in remodeling of his coffin bone (P3). And, a competent farrier can absolutely fix his angles in a single trim, especially if he uses a wedge shoe/pad, even for just 1-2 cycles, while he continues to work on the trim such that the feet grow in properly.

But, I suspect that a single, good trim will put things nearly right, if not 100% right, without shoes, and then if subsequent trimming is scheduled frequently enough, at least for a while, a great foot will grow in once again.

[Ambitious_Kate]

Good plan getting another farrier out. It sounds like you have a few really good suggestions for new farriers. I think its the way to go with this situation. Once you find someone who will do right by your horse’s feet, you’ll be able to tell when talking to them and you (both) will be feeling like you’re on the mend from these worries. Good luck.

[IPEsq]

[QUOTE=JB;8220086]
The good thing is that this NPA (negative palmar angle) hasn’t been going on for long, and likely has not resulted in remodeling of his coffin bone (P3). And, a competent farrier can absolutely fix his angles in a single trim, especially if he uses a wedge shoe/pad, even for just 1-2 cycles, while he continues to work on the trim such that the feet grow in properly.

But, I suspect that a single, good trim will put things nearly right, if not 100% right, without shoes, and then if subsequent trimming is scheduled frequently enough, at least for a while, a great foot will grow in once again.[/QUOTE]

I’m with JB on the hinds…need a new farrier and possibly some shoes in the short term to correct the angles. From the solar views, you can see the bars are not being brought back properly with the trim, which is leading to the underrun heels.

[One_Two_Three]

I feel like if I go in to the meeting with the new farrier armed with a little bit of knowledge, I’ll better be able to assess whether or not the farrier is right for our situation. My fingers are crossed for this guy, who is going to call me after work this evening to chat, and set up a time this week to stop out and take a look at what’s going on. He knows my current farrier and his work, and though he doesn’t bad mouth my farrier (he just has really good manners), he has said that he has taken over a lot of work from him, AND happens to be my farrier’s consult when he’s not sure what to do/where to go with something. Why my farrier doesn’t feel this way about my horse, to make that decision, I don’t know, but I’ve went ahead and made that decision for him. I did give him a chance, and he has made positive changes to the fronts, but since the backs are so jacked up now, I feel like we’re still at zero, therefore, time to move on.

Is there anything that I should come out and say when I meet with new farrier? I haven’t told him anything beyond “I need a second opinion/fresh eyes”…the rest will be discussed via phone this evening. Should I have him go in blind and tell ME what HE thinks is up? I’m not sure how to go about this. My thought was to just tell him I’m unhappy with my horse’s regression in hind heels…and leaving it at that until he sees them and tells me his opinion. Or do I mention some of the more technical things that you guys have generously given me?

[JB]

@One Two Three;8220195

I feel like if I go in to the meeting with the new farrier armed with a little bit of knowledge, I’ll better be able to assess whether or not the farrier is right for our situation.

Exactly - there has to be a base of knowledge to even know if the “professional” you are talking to knows what they’re talking about He might even be able to say all the right words, but can’t execute to do the right thing

Is there anything that I should come out and say when I meet with new farrier? I haven’t told him anything beyond “I need a second opinion/fresh eyes”…the rest will be discussed via phone this evening. Should I have him go in blind and tell ME what HE thinks is up? I’m not sure how to go about this. My thought was to just tell him I’m unhappy with my horse’s regression in hind heels…and leaving it at that until he sees them and tells me his opinion. Or do I mention some of the more technical things that you guys have generously given me?

In this case, the feet are so blatantly wrong that I would go in “blind” and just say 'I don’t think these look right, what can you tell me about that?" You now know what the problem is, so let’s see if the farrier at least recognizes the problem, then see what he plans to do to correct it.