If that was directed at me-I agree that is not “natural” for a horse to go at those gaits and with such low headsets. I also believe much of what we do with our horses are unnatural, therefore it is our responsibilty as horse owners to improve their quality of life, whether they are aimed to be a race horse, eventer, WP or dressage horse. I don’t think we need to do away with WP, because while certain training tactics are deplorable, should be done away with, and the offenders punished, I don’t think it applies to every WP horse or trainer out there. Same goes for racing, eventing, jumping, etc…
I was writing the same time as you…sorry didn’t direct that to you. I was talking to bugsynskeeter. Bugs I didn’t mean to accuse you or make you defensive in any way I am just concerned about the future QHs.
You are right…we are here as custodians for the animals and outright abuse needs to stop. The more I see the craziness of the extreme in horse sports the madder I get.
The only way it will stop is if the horseowners demand it.
Western pleasure horses do move low and slow naturally, but not as low and slow as what’s seen in the ring. The way their neck is set their heads naturally go low. Another horse, a saddlebred let’s say, would never in a million years be able to move like that. They just aren’t built that way.
I do however wish they would move with a bit of implusion. The trot/jog should have a moment of suspension and be two beats. When you slow it down that much you lose both the suspension and the harmony of the gait. The jog is the western passage, it should look fluid and pleasant. the lope should be an easy canter.
Oh well.
You got me…I opened the link expecting some nice, easy going horse video!
That’s a bit pacey for a running walk…
But I agree, gaited horses are pretty fun to ride, but the things you see at shows make me glad I event. I rarely see abuse at events. And the one incident I recall resulted in elimination for excessive use of the whip.
[QUOTE=europa;2960234]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWM-VCCS09g&NR=1
Now this is how nature intended a horse to move!![/QUOTE]
Wait…are you being sarcastic or serious? I’m very undereducated when it comes to TWHs so I can’t pass judgement either way…but coming from someone who doesn’t know much about them…that looks FREAKY and very unnatural!
[QUOTE=europa;2960234]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWM-VCCS09g&NR=1
Now this is how nature intended a horse to move!![/QUOTE]
Uhh, I’d take a WP horse over that, any day!!
[QUOTE=europa;2960234]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWM-VCCS09g&NR=1
Now this is how nature intended a horse to move!![/QUOTE]
EEEGADS!!! I very much hope you didn’t mean that seriously. That just looked painful!
I think the WP horses are sad; they look like they have no life in them. However, I think the way that a lot of the Tennessee Walking horses move is horrific. To me, they remind me of the trend in German Shepherds; really low hind ends with abnormal looking movement. A lot of those Walking horses suffer from severe hind-end lameness and back problems. Plus, the “big lick” walkers have all that weight on the front feet to produce that big front end movement; not healthy!
PEOPLE…I breed WBs of course I think that is unnatural.
The sad part is when looking at that video I found one of 2 year olds doing that and their whole backends were falling apart when they tried to downward transition. FOR ALL THAT IS HOLY!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuqN9n4RF4Y&feature=related
Watch the one horse in particular loses it in the transition downward. THEY ARE ONLY 2.
I can’t speak for those videos, as it just doesn’t look natural or decent to me. But, my hubby had a TWH pleasure horse who by no means resembled those. Funny how different they are barefoot and allowed to move “naturally” under saddle. His guy look funny only in that he did not “trot” but I didn’t look at him and think ohh that poor horse. He looked like a happy guy moving the way he was made to move.
Just like that WP stallion at liberty. Moved WAY different then under saddle.
[QUOTE=horselifer88;2957507]
http://www.bertonqh.com/images/sir_cool_skip_running_1_6_06.jpg
IS THAT A BEAR, OR A HORSE?!?!?!
confused:eek:[/QUOTE]
WTF??? It is so disturbing. It really does not even look like a horse anymore. I feel sick looking at this. I want to call these idiots and say what…I really don’t know, but it pisses me off.:mad:
I once boarded with a young girl that owned an absolutely ADORABLE weanling QH stud colt. He was a beautiful red dun with a blaze and four perfect whites.
She bought him from a QH breeder that focused on halter. He was big for a weanling, heavily muscled (but nothing like those stallion pics from earlier!)
I’d been told that some halter breeders “power feed” and supplement their babies to get them larger then normal at a young age. I’ve never been interested enough in the QH halter discipline to research that…
One of the other boarders told me that the barn owner was instructed to feed that baby FOUR FULL CANS of grain a day. FOUR!!! The barn owner wasn’t comfortable with doing that, but what the owner wants, the owner gets…
A few months after she brought him home, the colt had to be rushed to the Iowa State University veterinary hospital for emergency surgery. I don’t know all the details, but he had a BLEEDING ULCER, amongst other complications (like kidney failure I believe.) He came very close to dying.
It has been proven that high grain diets contribute to excessive stomach acid.
I haven’t a clue if all halter breeders do the “power feeding” thing, but in this case it almost cost a sweet little guy his life.
[QUOTE=okggo;2959813]
Stupid question…do they train them to move that way or are they bred (i.e. conformational issues) to? They look like they are in ultra slow motion. Is that like the western version of the piaffe? The one stallion looked normal at liberty but seemed forced into this wierd gait under saddle.
I just can’t imagine any of mine willingly going that sloooowly. Even my young boy at liberty, who is about as lazy as they come in that regard, canters around the field slowly but it still looks like a normal canter, not like I’m dragging the pause button.[/QUOTE]
Some were bred that way and were winning. So, the other folks took that to mean the slowest horse wins and the ones that did not go that way naturally were made to do it un naturally which is where things went so wrong.
I don’t have a problem with QH or WP people breeding for a horse to go around on the forehand and be “slow legged” as they love to advertise, IF they don’t produce something that is abnormal or it’s species or predisposed to unsoundness because of their practices. I also have a HUGE problem with cruel training practices or teaching a horse to move so that it’s natural gait or carriage is destroyed. I don’t understand the attraction of the “peanut rollers” headsets or how they get it. I thought their rules were now that the neck and head should be on the same plane as their shoulders, or something like that. Of course, they have also had alot of folks injecting and damaging their tails so they “pack” them around and can’t even swish off a fly as a result, also illegal, but still done. The TWH and SB’s are beautiful, elegant and kind/wonderful horses when naturally shod – I absolutely despise the caricature that the long toes and heavy shoes/chains bring about as well as the tail damage and all the chemicals they use to “enhance” the movement until the poor things are permanently in pain and lame. As a GSD owner for most of my life, I only want the European/German working lines with the level hips and OFA testing along with the great temperment and intelligence as my current companion displays. However, all the disciplines have a closet full of skeletons – now the powers that be will be testing the jumpers for being sensitized in their legs so they won’t hit a jump! For God’s sake – !! Wasn’t there some dressage trainer who used some electrical device to get upper level movement? Of course, the racetrack has their share of problems and the hunters have been known to use “calmatives” to achieve a quiet round. Where would many dressage trainers be without sidereins, drawreins, chambons, crank nosebands? Then the politics get involved, and so on and on. It’s really pretty disgusting! I’m not sure why anyone who “wins” by those means can hold their head up – like the idiot “hunters” now shooting wolves from airplanes – now THAT’S a “real sport”!
PennyG
^^^Agreed.
The barn I work at has one QH that was shown quite extensively on the AQHA circuit. He was bred to be a WP horse (Zips Chocolate Zip line) but got too tall so he was sold as a Youth horse geered towards HUS. He’s 16.2 and quite a pretty mover, showed all over in u/s and pleasure driving, but did not start his career until age 4. While he has always preferred to lope, he did have a nice, long trot. Since he was diagnosed with navicular, he can not trot, even in t/o he jogs and lopes around, not the peanut pusher type of lope, but certainly not a canter. I have ridden him, and I could not get him into a true canter. And this is a horse that really didn’t go through the training many QHs do. These days, he’s pretty much a pasture ornament that does the occassional trail ride.
I’ve only ridden one TWH. She was owned by a friend who bought her specifically to pleasure ride on since she (owner) has a bad back. She was the most comfortable horse, and while she was not trained to do all those gaits, I don’t even know what they are called! she did have some unusal movements, and high stepping naturally. The owner bought her as an unbroke yearling, so obviously it is natural for the horse, but she doesn’t have that “German Shephard” (good description, Hillside H Ranch!) hindend at all.
[QUOTE=TKR;2960665]
I don’t have a problem with QH or WP people breeding for a horse to go around on the forehand and be “slow legged” as they love to advertise, IF they don’t produce something that is abnormal or it’s species or predisposed to unsoundness because of their practices. I also have a HUGE problem with cruel training practices or teaching a horse to move so that it’s natural gait or carriage is destroyed. I don’t understand the attraction of the “peanut rollers” headsets or how they get it. I thought their rules were now that the neck and head should be on the same plane as their shoulders, or something like that. Of course, they have also had alot of folks injecting and damaging their tails so they “pack” them around and can’t even swish off a fly as a result, also illegal, but still done. The TWH and SB’s are beautiful, elegant and kind/wonderful horses when naturally shod – I absolutely despise the caricature that the long toes and heavy shoes/chains bring about as well as the tail damage and all the chemicals they use to “enhance” the movement until the poor things are permanently in pain and lame. As a GSD owner for most of my life, I only want the European/German working lines with the level hips and OFA testing along with the great temperment and intelligence as my current companion displays. However, all the disciplines have a closet full of skeletons – now the powers that be will be testing the jumpers for being sensitized in their legs so they won’t hit a jump! For God’s sake – !! Wasn’t there some dressage trainer who used some electrical device to get upper level movement? Of course, the racetrack has their share of problems and the hunters have been known to use “calmatives” to achieve a quiet round. Where would many dressage trainers be without sidereins, drawreins, chambons, crank nosebands? Then the politics get involved, and so on and on. It’s really pretty disgusting! I’m not sure why anyone who “wins” by those means can hold their head up – like the idiot “hunters” now shooting wolves from airplanes – now THAT’S a “real sport”!
PennyG[/QUOTE]
As you say, there are bad training practices in every discipline. The orginal post was about bad breeding conformation. It morphed into the training problems with WP (where the original “low and slow” as in relaxed became “if low and slow is good them lower and slower is even better…” to the point the horse looks crippled and lost it natural gaits.) The WP issue can really be quite easily solved if the judges get around to rewarding a more natural gait pattern. There is nothing inherently wrong with the horses. Halter is a whole nuther ball of wax with it’s confo breeding issues.
As a teen I cleaned stalls for a Halter Paint horse breeder/trainer. A common practice was to inject or implant a bovine hormone implant under the skin of the crest on inside the ear where nobody would see it. It was about 3/4 inch long slim pellet shaped. Im not sure if it was testosterone or something else. When I inquired the wife said it was used to beef market cattle up before sales.
I was just a kid then and just mucked my stalls and :eek: when I saw and heard things.
