I agree with Secretariat. Ours are handled for the basic, taught to lead and wear a halter right away, live out with mom and other foals at about 1+ week old. Then at weaning they go out in groups until they are started at 3y. They get grain 2x/d so someone is looking them over, but are only handled for farrier/vet days and if they have something that needs to be looked at or doctored. They are very friendly and social, but definitely not coddled. This has worked well for us and they have all gone on to be successful in sport thus far. It seems to work awfully well for the Europeans! We just brought over 2 semi-feral 4yos, and I am pretty sure did their feet for the first time in their lives. They are coming along great and seem no worse for the wear. I don’t advocate having a group of 4yos who don’t know how to lead, of course, but they catch up quickly, and a bit of benign neglect can be a good thing, IMHO.
All of mine are handled twice a day. They mostly live outside, but come in stalls to eat their breakfast and dinner feed. I do transitions (walk-halt-walk) with them, turns out of my space, etc., while we are on our way to and from the barn. They know to stop when I stop, and walk when I walk, without me having to pull or push on them. They know to not rush out of the field or stall just because a gate or stall door is open. I also will sometimes pick their feet while they are in their stalls, once they’ve finished their feed and are ready to go back out. Sometimes I handle two at a time, and make the first one I’ve gotten stand still until I’m ready with the second. I don’t regularly work with weanlings and yearlings with clipping or loading on the trailer, or anything extra like that, because I don’t find it necessary. Because they have such good basic manners and are handled so regularly and consistently, I find doing anything extra easy because they already trust and respect me.
[QUOTE=EventerAJ;7500315]
It sounds like your filly is an alpha mare in the making.
IME, it doesn’t matter how much you handle them, but rather the quality of the handling. Horses grow up just fine if they live out and come up once a month. They can also turn out fine if you prep them every day. What matters is how they are handled: so that they respect and trust people.[/QUOTE]
Totally correct!
I’ve seen talented trainers pull a 3 yr old that was basically ranch-raised and barely handled and have it well-mannered and quiet in days.
Other horses have been handled (badly) from day one and have issues you need to fix.
A REAL common one is letting the foal/horse move into your space and you “give.” Even if it’s only inches, this is letting the animal know it can push you around.
So many people don’t even realize they are doing it! I’d rather deal with a 3 yr old w/almost no handling than one raised by a person who lets them get away with this.
Horses are really smart…they retain stuff very well. A recent study shows that mature horses can remember commands easily for 2 yrs (without being worked in the meantime).
Foals probably don’t have that much retention, but they still remember.
Quality over quantity …still gets the job done just great.
I appreciate reading these posts as everyone seems to have different points of view for what works for them.
Good discussion! Use what works for you, not what someone else does. 25+ years ago I went to several weekend clinics when John Lyons was just becoming national. What I learned was invaluable - but I could never do it the way John did, I’m not that good and can’t “read” a horse the way he did.
All…
Thanks so much for the thoughtful responses! There are so many great points that were made, so many great ideas and suggestions, and I love all the different points of view and experiences every has had! I very much believe having as many “tools” in my “tool box,” as each horse is different and may require different “tools” or techniques.
Add me to the list of people who would rather work with a yound horse who has been handled less, than a young horse who has had countless episodes of incompetent handling.
What has worked for me is many short lessons (five to ten minutes) per week until basic skills are in place, then very minimal handling until three-ish years old.
They live in loafing sheds with big pastures and friends, and every week or so I pull them in, tie them up and groom. If this causes a ruckus, I do it more over the next week, and plunk that baby in a stall with hay for several hours until the ruckus doesn’t happen. If all is calm for tying, grooming, leading…that’s all they do and out they go. Maybe twenty minutes has been spent.
Somewhere in the yearling year I’ll fabricate reasons to go for walks, like maybe to get the mail…or walk through a puddle. We will have some short, fun sessions in The arena with tarps and whips and umbrellas. No training session lasts more than fifteen minutes or a mental meltdown is invited. I do this maybe one every couple of weeks. I also move the kids around: sometimes one stays in a paddock all day. Sometimes one goes on the other side of the farm to hang out in a different pasture with an Uncle all day. There is some carrying on, then the place calms down. I consider this very easy “training” to do, and by the time we start “real” training, everyone is flexible, not herd bound and has been led into new places.
By three they are usually very happy to see me coming and shove their head into the halter because being cought means fun, food and scratches. Then it’s my job to gradually introduce new skills (lunging, sucingles, bridles, saddles…) without overstaying my welcome due to their still very short attention spans.
Since I don’t show the babies, I have the luxury of piddling around for a year or two…but they all end up ready to go into “real” training at three (or so) years old.
At most I work with three year olds three times a week, for 1/2 hour sessions. At four I go to four times per week.
This is a great thread, thank you.
My new Morgan filly, well, part of the reason I chose her is that her breeder has an outstanding reputation for handling her babies in a way that gets them happy to work with humans. Of course they are also bred for that 
She has sent weanlings to people with little to no experience with foals, and regularly gets feedback that these weanlings behave better than the older horses! People have fun with them, and most go back to the breeder to be started, because she also does that really well.
Because I’m a cautious sort, she’ll have my filly for a year. I will visit several times, and made it clear that these visits are for training me to handle the baby correctly.
We use the less is more approach as well. We used to do a ton but learned over the years that it really does not make a difference and sometimes makes them worse. They all can do the normal things… like lead, stand for the farrier, we body clip them etc… but we don’t mess when them a ton. Like it was said above this is how Europe raises them as well (actually they have less handling). I will say though our mares are quiet, we breed to stallions with great temperaments and weanlings ALWAYS have a Nanny mare (this I think is SUPER important) so they all come along easily when they are expected to do something and since they were not messed with a ton they are very friendly and easy to please. I have also seen foals that are sour from the constant “training” they receive.
first off as a yearling I guarantee she will test her boundaries. Especially if she is a bold one. They all try and move up the pecking order in the herd about that point. out in the field the other horses will put her in her place. With you, carry Mr. Crop. I have had a couple kickers at this stage. If they pick up a foot, I lift the crop. If they persist and actually kick at me the offending foot is cracked with the crop as they go for it. My aim at a moving target has gotten pretty good. One crack for the offense on the offending foot and that’s it. That is a lot less than a pissed off horse will do her!It doesn’t take long until they pick up a foot, I raise the crop, they think better of it and put the foot back down.
As to what I do at that age: groom, lead trailer load. As yearlings they learn to tie. If they lead they already know to give to pressure. When they learn to tie I just tie them on crossties on one side, and have a lead rope on the other so there is wiggle room if they back up etc and don’t hit the end of the ties. We stand at the cross tie spot and get brushed, which they like. Doesn’t take long to associate standing there on ties with being brushed and getting cookies. At first they are wiggly and move around a lot. If they move off the spot I just walk them forward again . If they stand quietly there they got a cookie. They don’t get the second tie clipped on until they are good with one cross tie and happily standing there being groomed.
As sucklings, I do only enough handling to teach them to halter, pick up their feet, get some grooming, and stand for the farrier. They also learn to enter a trailer with their mother, especially important if mare is going to be rebred, or they need to go teir inspection. During the course of interacting with their mothers to bring them outside in the early morning to the pasture, and then catching at night to come back inside to sleep at night and getting a nightly brush down, they learn the process of catching and routine. It’s kept short, brief, and to the point. I don’t play with their mouths, I don’t even really pet them. I may scratch an itchy spot, but I interact with them with self-control and respect, and they mirror that to me.
As a rising yearling, once the snow has finally melted in the spring, I begin the precursors of teaching them to tie and stand tied while being groomed. By this point, I am approaching a yearling with a halter just like I would as an adult. I walk up, slip the halter on, give a soft pat on the neck and walk to the gate and out we go to where we go. And that is literally all there is to it.
I don’t play with foals, I never feed any horse treats by hand (if they get a carrot it goes in a bucket). Foals are not allowed to touch me with their muzzles. I do not allow touching of foals on their noses. If a colt shows the early signs of being mouthy, I will put my hand under his jaw to direct his head and keep his muzzle away from my body. They soon get the idea and stop trying. If they do grab a nip, it is dealt with swiftly, sharply, and to the point, and then the issue is dropped. I can honestly say none of my colts have ever been monstrously mouthy because I’ve never allowed it, never allowed presentation of temptation, and always made it clear their muzzle is to stay out of my space. They’re not stupid. They get it. Respect begats respect. I don’t push a youngster’s buttons, because their frustration with that results in them lashing out the only way they know how - with their teeth or a hoof and then they get even more frustrated when they get punished for it… and YOU started it in the first place.
I do handle weanlings daily in the sense that they get caught daily, brought into a stall to eat their mash and get a quick brush down. As rising yearlings, they start learning about that little thing called tying and standing tied for grooming, but that’s about it. I keep it simple, straight forward and no messing around. As a result, the babies are not pushy. If they try to wag a hind foot when you get to a ticklish spot, it’s an opportunity to show them what’s appropriate and what is not. But the attitude around them is an expectation of Ps and Qs, and thus they tend to act accordingly. Even with grooming sessions, it is kept very short and simple. All a weanling or yearling needs to worry about at this stage of the game is learning horse-human social skills, herd social skills, eating, sleeping, and growing.
As sucklings, I do only enough handling to teach them to halter, lead, pick up their feet, get some grooming, and stand for the farrier. They also learn to enter a trailer with their mother, especially important if mare is going to be rebred, or they need to go to their inspection. During the course of interacting with their mothers to bring them outside in the early morning to the pasture, and then catching at night to come back inside to sleep at night and getting a nightly brush down, they learn the process of catching and routine. It’s kept short, brief, and to the point. I don’t play with their mouths, I don’t even really pet them. I may scratch an itchy spot, but I interact with them with self-control and respect, and they mirror that to me.
As a rising yearling, once the snow has finally melted in the spring, I begin the precursors of teaching them to tie and stand tied while being groomed. By this point, I am approaching a yearling with a halter just like I would as an adult. I walk up, slip the halter on, give a soft pat on the neck and walk to the gate and out we go to where we go. And that is literally all there is to it.
I don’t play with foals, I never feed any horse treats by hand (if they get a carrot it goes in a bucket). Foals are not allowed to touch me with their muzzles. I do not allow humans touching foals on their noses. If a colt shows the early signs of being mouthy, I will put my hand under his jaw to control his head and direct his face away from my body (with my hand under his jaw, he cannot push down to nip). This is not a game and I never allow it turn into such. They soon get the idea and stop trying. If they do grab a nip and they will try it once, it is dealt with swiftly, sharply, and to the point, and then the issue is dropped. I don’t carry on and on with discipline. One well-timed response to naughty behavior speaks volumes to a young horse. It is never brought up again unless they do. I can honestly say none of my colts have ever been all that mouthy because I’ve never allowed it, never allowed presentation of temptation, and always made it very clear from day one that their muzzle is to stay out of my space. They’re not stupid and I don’t treat them like they’re stupid. They get it.
Respect begats respect.
I don’t push a youngster’s buttons, because their frustration with that results in them lashing out the only way they know how - with their teeth or a hoof and then they get even more frustrated when they get punished for it… and YOU started it in the first place. Frustrated foals are the precursors to increasingly bad behavior. If you have a foal with escalating behavior, he is frustrated by YOUR behavior. YOU have not clearly defined the rules and have been inconsistent in what the rules are.
I do handle weanlings daily in the sense that they get caught daily, brought into a stall to eat their mash, and get a quick brush down. That’s about it. I keep it simple, straight forward and no messing around. As a result, the babies are not pushy. If they try to wag a hind foot when you get to a ticklish spot, it’s an opportunity to show them what’s appropriate and what is not. But the attitude around them is an expectation of Ps and Qs, and thus they tend to act accordingly. Even with grooming sessions, it is kept very short and simple. All a weanling or yearling needs to worry about at this stage of life is learning horse-human social skills, herd social skills, eating, sleeping, and growing.
Usually by the time they’re yearlings, they are so enthusiastic for human interaction that they then start crowding a bit when it’s time to be caught, and then they learn how to give space and stand quietly next to each other so everyone can be caught without pushing and shoving. This is also when they learn that sometimes it’s okay if they’re first, or sometimes they’re one of the middles ones, or the last one to be brought in or taken out. This is also when they learn that their fussing, running around, or complaining about who is going in or out of the paddock or barn is unimpressive to me and is ignored by me and they get no attention from me until they are standing quietly, and then they are awarded by me approaching, giving a pat on the neck and the halter goes on so they can join their friends. They go nowhere until they are standing still. They do not barge out of an open stall door or barge through a gate until they are standing quiet and I give the release, “okay, let’s go” and they are expected to walk quietly with me - rushing results in backing up, standing quiet and trying again. If they’re fidgeting while I’m preparing them to exit the stall, we stand there until they are quiet. Thus, they begin the process of learning - “quiet” from them gets them out to the pasture or in to the mash or the freedom to approach their bucket. I never accept or expect anything less or more from them and thus they learn the expected behavior accordingly. And this <— is taught right from hour one of birth.
As the owner of TWO WB fillies (one is 10months, one is about to be 2), I can’t IMAGINE not handling them until they are three! What the heck??? Why wait until they are both 17hds and can put me in a coma to teach manners and basic handling??? That’s asking for trouble. I work fulltime and can’t handle my “girls” everyday but they live on my farm, come into their stalls like ladies twice a day and allow me to do whatever I need to do to them. I’m not doing anything magical or special but BOTH are sweet and instinctively know I’m the alpha, since I decide when everyone eats. I do agree that putting a bossy horse out with an even bossier horse is a smart move to teach respect. I’m totally convinced that my gelding has set the tone for these two fillies and they model his behavior. He has done my dirty work for me I do not segregate my herd though…
I’ve only had one filly behave in a bossy, alpha way and she too was handled too much at birth (orphaned) and therefore, never learned respect for humans. She was pushy and bullheaded and you couldn’t scare her into doing anything she didn’t want to do! She was fearless of people and that’s not always a good thing! I couldn’t stand her and sold her as soon as I could, lol!
I have enjoyed every MINUTE of working with my current youngsters…They are like little sponges! You wouldn’t dream of leaving a puppy in the yard, untrained and unsocialized till it was three, why would you leave a 1200 lb animal??? Total believer in doing as much handling as you can while they are babies. Whether that is just sitting in the stall with them so they get used to you being there or making them tie for bathing, grooming, farrier or more formal training. It’s the reprimanding you have to be careful about. Too much is bad but too little is a liability with age. But most importantly, it’s about knowing your horse and knowing what is right for any particular animal at any particular time.
I have a Clinton Anderson type trainer work with my babies. We train them just like any horse from birth. I do this so I do not get snotty behavior. So far so good.
OP, I would love to hear what you have tried and if you have had success.
As a farrier, allow me to weigh in… I HATE people who subscribe to the “only handle babies when absolutely necessary” philosophy. Yeah that is great for the breeder who chuckles indulgently from the sidelines, not so hot for the hapless grooms, vets, farriers, and junior trainers who have to actually handle the little bastards. Any of my young horses will stand tied to have their feet done, no handler, by the time they are two months old. It is just as easy to teach a suckling as a 3yo, and often easier. Ours get handled twice a day, lead in and out, nothing fancy, but by god the last thing anyone would ever call one of my young horses is semi-feral. Every baby I’ve taken to a show has gotten compliments on how well-behaved and sensible they are.
Jennifer
Exactly, Jennifer!
[QUOTE=Ticker;7546046]
OP, I would love to hear what you have tried and if you have had success.[/QUOTE]
There have been so many good suggestions and opinions made on this thread! I have appreciated it and enjoyed reading about everyone’s experiences!
As I indicated in my first post, I generally subscribe to the “middle of the road” philosophy with my young ones. I imprint at birth. And while sucklings, I handle them daily leading them to / from their stall and pasture with their damn – I also routinely groom and lift/pick their feet. Once they move outside with their age group, I still check on them daily during feeding times and groom / handle them at least weekly. I do find they retain their early lessons well.
This one particularly difficult filly I have, who is out with her playmate and my alpha mare, is one of the most difficult young ones I’ve had. And she has made me question many things.
So after much thought and listening to people here, I decided to take a step back from her for a little bit. I still conducted my four corners check, feed her, and give her the occasional good girl pat, but I tried to ignore her a bit (again, knowing she has had those early lessons). I also got harder on her when she did threaten me or my space. I have actually found over the last few weeks that she hasn’t pinned her ears at me and seems much more respectful. I genuinely feel that she misses the attention and now seeks it out, as opposed to her dictating if she was in the mood when I offered it. So with her, this less is more approach has really worked.
Yep…alpha wannabe.
Personally, ear pinning doesn’t bother me too much. I might growl at them, but unless it is followed by an aggression action, I pretty much ignore it.
And when I say IGNORE, that means I just keep doing what I was going to do anyway…don’t back down, but don’t be particularly aggressive either.
Many of those alpha types will just continue to escalate the tougher you try to be…they will go toe-to-toe w/you given the chance. I have one like that…if you try to go all Dirty Harry on her she WILL kick or bite.
Instead you need to sort of finesse her…make it seem like it was her idea to “do the right thing” and when she does it (the stuff that most horses are expected to do “just because”), you praise & treat lavishly.
These are horses with BIG egos, and so you play to that.
MOST horses can be intimidated by people, but there are a rare few that simply will not back down.
For me personally, I’ve found you really need to have precise timing and set yourself up for success when working with these horses. Every single interaction w/these types needs to be viewed as teaching…sometimes till they are 4-5 yrs old.
Like I said, I just ignore the ear pinning…kind of like a kid whining. That just takes the wind out their sails.
You’d have to describe the “kicking” in more detail…when, where, how, etc. That’s the shortcoming of Net BBs & Horses…circumstances, feel & timing is all and it’s really tough to communicate that via the net.
Wow I guess I’m really lucky with my 10 month old filly. I always handled her when necessary (foal inspection, farrier, vaccinations, deworming, everything around her import to the US) but never really on a regular basis, and she is always friendly, never pushing and behaving perfect with the farrier… Do you all think it might be genetic???
