After a fall on Thursday at WEF, Harry put his thoughts up on the web. Curious to hear y’all’s input. Let’s see if I can attach this thing, I’m a dinosaur:
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Riding is a dangerous sport….especially jumping where they intentionally make parts of the course difficult so you have rails. Bad things will eventually happen.
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I find it somewhat contradictory that he says that a vertical-oxer has no purpose and is less technical than oxer-vertical yet at the same time the vertical-oxer is more risky and challenging to ride. So which is it? There’s no technicality in vertical-oxer or it requires so much experience that it’s dangerous to set for amateurs?
Also, if he thought the distance was set so short as to be dangerous, did he request to speak with the Steward and course designer after he walked it?
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I see his point but IMO anyone can have a flier. Horses sometimes read things way differently than it’s intended. I’ve seen horses launch over a one stride like it was a giant oxer.
I think the more important thing to focus on is standardizing the distance in between 1 and 2 stride combinations. I have witnessed some truly terribly set distances even at the 1.50 or 1.60 height. Even at the Olympics last summer one of the courses had a triple set that almost every horse had a rail down in; you could see the riders struggling to make the distance work in a one stride. That shouldn’t be happening.
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Weirdly, what he’s saying makes sense to me, I didn’t expect it would.
I think what he’s saying is you’re putting the more dangerous element at the end of the question when you go vertical > oxer. You should be riding into such an element by focusing how you get over the oxer, but amateurs tend to just focus on the In and forget about riding the Out. And when the In is an un-assuming vertical, you might make some riskier decisions.
I think the spirit here, for the amateur ring at least, is if you jump in successfully you should basically be guaranteed an easy ride out, or at least not get set up to swim something. Putting the oxers first let’s them answer the tough question first. So when they get that wrong and leave a stride out they’re facing a much less punishing vertical.
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I understand his argument about a vertical-oxer requiring more precise riding because there’s not as much leeway on the out of you mess up the in. That’s actually why in eventing show jumping there are actually restrictions on how combinations are set at the lower levels.
What doesn’t square with me is his statement at the beginning that the vertical-oxer two stride serves no purpose and is less technical. In fact, it seems like the vertical-oxer setup asks a specific technical question. I don’t know what class his accident occurred in, but at the upper levels that is a question I would expect riders to be able to answer.
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The class was 1.45 and he was on a horse pretty experienced at 1.60. It was formerly ridden for the same owner by Darragh Kerins which is a clue that it needs a diplomatic ride in my book.
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I’ve always been nervous doing a 2 stride vertical oxer and I don’t know why. It just didn’t feel safe. But then I hate bounces over 2’ also.
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Hunters jump 2 strides all the time. From 3’ upwards. The 2 stride is rarely the problem.
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old school gymnastics often go vertical (any number) to oxers. I find it difficult to understand how that is the problem. However, if the distances aren’t standard (as they are in the gymnastics) - then I could see that being a massive issue. A vertical to a short 2 to an oxer sounds really (unfairly) hard.
I forget which famous old school eventer who would say he could set a novice sized fence that could actually be unjumpable at the advanced level. The devil is in the details…
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I think that’s the problem. I’ve seen a lot of shows where they set one course from 1.10 - 1.40 and don’t move the combinations in or out. Depending on what runs first, that can make the combos dangerously long for the lower heights or dangerously short for the higher ones.
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I have seen that also but it is almost certainly not an issue in Palm Beach. They are meticulous about measuring and setting courses and have stewards watching everything.
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I was just thinking this before I got to your post. I’ve never seen anything but vertical-oxer for one or two strides in the hunters.
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This feels like a very knee jerk reaction to what was undoubtedly a terrifying experience, and he is trying to find SOMETHING to blame for feeling like he could have been seriously injured, even though there is often nothing and no one to blame.
I am pretty sure, and the info I have been able to find seems to confirm this, that Kevin Babington’s accident happened at the out of a triple, where B-C was a two stride of verticals. His horse left in one, and at that point it doesn’t matter if it’s a vertical or an oxer coming out.
The problem isn’t the structure of the combination, but the measurements of the distances. Like others have said, there could be regulated minimum distances that are enforced (his post makes it seem like there are minimum distances but they aren’t enforced?). My immediate thought went to gymnastics that are set as vertical oxer, but pointing out that most hunter combinations are vertical oxer is a good point as well.
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Horses are good at recognizing one strides, not so good at two strides. Anything after that they have time to figure it out. I think we forget that they see very differently from us and sometimes that can cause issues.
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But, IME, there are no true verticals in the hunters except for maybe a hunter derby. Most of the fences appear to be piles of flowers. . . …
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But hunters aren’t coming into two-strides at speed? I think that makes an enormous difference.
It sounds like his horse just completely misread the question despite a proper approach (admittedly inferring here, honestly not sure I want to see the video), and my impression is he’s reviewing what happened, realizing that even with his skill there was nothing he could have done to prevent it, then going onto wonder how many amateur horses get pressed into a situation where they think the right answer is to leave the step out. Especially if the oxer isn’t exactly imposable because it’s a sub 1.20m class and they are a former 1.60m horse being piloted by a monkey (/end-jokes).
Truth be told, I’m a hunter gal and had to google Harry Charles (lol). Apparently he’s a bright young star, whereas I had assumed he was more of an obscure veteran type I hadn’t heard of. Which makes it not just surprising, but pleasantly surprising that I’m seeing a certain line of logic here.
Anyway, it seems that minimum measurements should definitely be considered for this question, and could alone be the solution.
But you do have to wonder if it’s a necessary question at certain/defined levels. You still have the same two fences/heights to negotiate, but if running them one way is just likely to be safer than running them the other way? I find that intriguing as we continue on in a world where not everyone should be jumping the height they’re jumping, but are going to do so anyway.
You could also argue that the oxer > vertical question is more effective at encouraging more of the riding we want to see. The vertical would not only be safer coming out, but also more likely to fault you if you’re leaving strides out on the way into a combination, but you’re actually not ready to leave strides out on the way into a combination.
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I watched Harry’s round earlier today and his horse seemed pretty tense going in to the combination. I couldn’t tell what might have happened that made the horse decide it was a one stride instead of two. Does anybody know if any other riders had trouble at the combination?
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I’m not sure about the amateur argument. I feel like it’s much more common to see a horse in an amateur class put two strides in a one rather than one stride in a two - most amateurs seem to err on the side of being under paced or pulling to an imperfect distance.
Of course it’s awful to ever have a horse swimming through a jump or falling, but is this a common issue or more of a misreading that could have happened at any jump?
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Agreed. This is what really, really worries me.
I’m grateful for the experienced courses (and judges coaching!) who have the knowledge and backbone to flag these issues and ask the course designer to fix it. Short one strides have no business, especially in amateur classes where the temptation to bounce can result in catastrophe.
Not worth my neck, not worth my horses life.
I’ve been so grateful when those more experienced than I spoke up and fought back. Thank you!
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