Harry Charles on vertical-oxer two strides

[MHM]

@dags

Truth be told, I’m a hunter gal and had to google Harry Charles (lol). Apparently he’s a bright young star

I believe he is a second generation Olympic gold medalist in show jumping, following in the footsteps of his dad Peter, who was a gold medalist at the London Olympics.

I’m not sure what other families have done that (possibly Pessoa?), but I’m thinking it’s a pretty darn short list.

Harry is still pretty young. 23? 25? Somewhere in there.I sort of wondered if this is the first time Harry has really had a super scary fall, and he’s just trying to make sense of it as he works through all the possible variables in his brain.

[nutmeg]

I bet the fall he had four weeks before Paris when he broke his wrist must have been stressful to say the least.
It would be an interesting experiment to mosey through some old class results and see the stats on 2-stride doubles at 1.45 and up. Where’s Dave Ballard? He’s the course connoisseur.

[Amberley]

@StormyDay

I have witnessed some truly terribly set distances even at the 1.50 or 1.60 height. Even at the Olympics last summer one of the courses had a triple set that almost every horse had a rail down in; you could see the riders struggling to make the distance work in a one stride. That shouldn’t be happening.

It’s because as the fences have got smaller in every division and the horses better at jumping due to breeding, they are all jumping clean unless you make it so that luck or extreme adjustability play a part.

[paw]

FFS. Vertical to oxer in however many strides is something that should be able to be negotiated (or not) without such drama but any professional rider. And if he can’t, perhaps he should look to his capacity to work with his horse.

[Flyaways]

Interesting, I’ve always found oxer-vertical to be more difficult - usually my problem is jumping too far in over the oxer and then needing to shorten the stride to fit it in without completely hitting the brakes and having a stop.

[StormyDay]

@Amberley

@StormyDay

I have witnessed some truly terribly set distances even at the 1.50 or 1.60 height. Even at the Olympics last summer one of the courses had a triple set that almost every horse had a rail down in; you could see the riders struggling to make the distance work in a one stride. That shouldn’t be happening.

It’s because as the fences have got smaller in every division and the horses better at jumping due to breeding, they are all jumping clean unless you make it so that luck or extreme adjustability play a part.

I’ll have to disagree here. At 1.50 or 1.60 there are lots of rails down. Last night at WEC they had 30+ entries and 3 clear rounds. Both one stride combinations rode well; it was other fences on course that caused rails. You can make a course hard without making a trappy one or two stride.

[supershorty628]

I think the vertical-oxer combination asks a very different question than the oxer-vertical. Personally, I don’t think that the number of strides between them actually is what makes the difference (just speaking from my own experience).

A vertical in with oxer out is asking both the horse and rider whether they can maintain focus on the first part of the combination until it is completed, then address the out. It’s very easy to have the vertical down because of already thinking about and preparing for the oxer. Whether it’s having it down in front because of thinking too early about needing additional impulsion for the out and adding power too early, or conversely, having it down behind because of needing to collect in that first stride and then be able to still have the impulsion to get out over the oxer.

An oxer in is, IMO (and depending on the horse, of course) much easier. When I was showing my little mare, an oxer in was basically a freebie combination - as long as we found the in, there was minimal participation on my part other than maintaining balance to get out. A vertical in required a more technical and thoughtful ride. Both of them ask very valid questions of horse and rider.

I certainly won’t pretend that I ride, or rode, anywhere near the level of Harry Charles. Nor will I ever. But this strikes me as an emotional reaction to an understandably frightening experience, rather than truly a global issue that requires intervention in course design.

[kenyarider]

Good opinion. He’s only 25 after all. I agree that I prefer oxer-vertical and I don’t jump anywhere near as well or as high as you do. I never thought about why I didn’t like vertical-oxer unless it was 3 strides or one. It just felt bad riding it even going well. Made my stomach clench!

[nutmeg]

Semi off-topic but a heads up on this afternoon’s feast for the eyes: Harry goes 35th in this afternoon’s 2* Grand Prix on Zineday who is poetry in motion. Class starts at 2:30 so he may conflict with the Commanders game.

[foursocks]

@supershorty628

I certainly won’t pretend that I ride, or rode, anywhere near the level of Harry Charles. Nor will I ever. But this strikes me as an emotional reaction to an understandably frightening experience, rather than truly a global issue that requires intervention in course design.

As someone who rides even lower-level than both of you, that is what it seemed to me, too, when I read his little blurb. I actually would rather have a vertical to oxer for my younger horse simply because of the way he over-jumps, regardless of height or striding. I’m not jumping 1.50m, and I know that changes things dramatically, but when he decides to make a ridiculously big effort to the oxer with his hind end I have to basically sit him down on landing so we can rebalance for the out and not have to jump from underneath it. This is fine, and it’s an education thing that will improve more and more, but I’d always rather have vertical-oxer in the in and outs with him! You need a bit more pepper for a big, wide oxer but it sort of sucks if you land in the middle of the two-stride because your horse decides the oxer is made out of lava and dragons.

My other guy is so adjustable and scopey I don’t care- if he’s balanced we can get to the jumps at any distance and it’s easy for him. So, even if he makes a big effort I can rebalance very quickly and however the two rides he will fit it in without jumping over his shoulder, which is what little guy does if I don’t sit him down right away to get his hind end under control. Again, I’m not jumping big ol’ jumps (1.20m at most these days), but building to the out has always struck me, at least, as easier than sitting and regrouping to it.

[jvanrens]

@MHM

I’m not sure what other families have done that (possibly Pessoa?), but I’m thinking it’s a pretty darn short list.

You’ve forgotten completely of the Millar’s too. Ian’s kids Jonathan and Amy have both ridden for Canada.

[initiate1987]

The Whitaker family in the UK, too. I think it also tends to be a family thing in the South American countries. I’m blanking on who it was, but there was a ride in last night’s WEF Grand Prix who is the son of an Olympian from one of those countries.

[wanderlust]

@paw

FFS. Vertical to oxer in however many strides is something that should be able to be negotiated (or not) without such drama but any professional rider. And if he can’t, perhaps he should look to his capacity to work with his horse.

Really? He’s 25, has a gold team medal from Paris and qualified for the individual.

How many times have you ridden a vertical to oxer combo at 1.45 and above?

[173north]

The part of the brain that accurately assesses risk doesn’t finish developing until our mid-20s — I had a “shit happens” fall at 26 that really shook me, even though I’d laughed off worse/scarier falls before. I always knew theoretically that riding was dangerous, but I did not get it until that first fall after my prefrontal cortex finished coming online.

I’m not saying that is what Harry is experiencing, maybe his brain developed faster than mine, but I get how a scary fall in your mid 20s, especially one where the horse misread the question or you felt there was nothing you could have done as a rider, could require some processing.

[MHM]

@jvanrens

@MHM

I’m not sure what other families have done that (possibly Pessoa?), but I’m thinking it’s a pretty darn short list.

You’ve forgotten completely of the Millar’s too. Ian’s kids Jonathan and Amy have both ridden for Canada.

Did they medal?

[jvanrens]

Not yet. Sorry I missed that was the important part.

[MHM]

I mean, if you’re trying to compare apples to apples. Lol.

[Amberley]

@StormyDay

I’ll have to disagree here. At 1.50 or 1.60 there are lots of rails down. Last night at WEC they had 30+ entries and 3 clear rounds. Both one stride combinations rode well; it was other fences on course that caused rails. You can make a course hard without making a trappy one or two stride.

But are all those rails at the same fences? I remember seeing some analysis maybe last year and most faults occur at the same one or two fences, usually combinations or airy verticals without groundlines, making the point that you could essentially get rid of 80% of fences, save everyone time and have the same results from most competitions. And it has been true quite often in the last decade. We don’t have open water anymore in most GPs, we don’t have big max oxers to test raw scope, we don’t have derby fences at all outside Spruce in NA anymore do we. We hardly even have different footings or arena sizes.

The person who wrote it was citing another’s research, I’m pretty sure based on FEI competitions. Published 23 or 24.

[StormyDay]

@Amberley

@StormyDay

I’ll have to disagree here. At 1.50 or 1.60 there are lots of rails down. Last night at WEC they had 30+ entries and 3 clear rounds. Both one stride combinations rode well; it was other fences on course that caused rails. You can make a course hard without making a trappy one or two stride.

But are all those rails at the same fences? I remember seeing some analysis maybe last year and most faults occur at the same one or two fences, usually combinations or airy verticals without groundlines, making the point that you could essentially get rid of 80% of fences, save everyone time and have the same results from most competitions. And it has been true quite often in the last decade. We don’t have open water anymore in most GPs, we don’t have big max oxers to test raw scope, we don’t have derby fences at all outside Spruce in NA anymore do we. We hardly even have different footings or arena sizes.

The person who wrote it was citing another’s research, I’m pretty sure based on FEI competitions. Published 23 or 24.

I didn’t keep track but to my eye it was very much all over the place for rails. There was one fence that came down more often (top plank) but I think every fence had a rail come down.
I think there are plenty of ways to make a course tougher without asking for accidents by making a one stride be a weird distance. Time allowed, rollbacks, jumps at an angle, length, having a long gallop in between fences, jumping towards the arena wall, etc.

[Amberley]

That’s a good course design but you can hardly draw conclusions from your impression of one class. I watched probably 250 jumper classes last year from Thermal all the way to Europe and quite a few show jumping event phases, probably 35 or so and at most of them I’d say 80%+ of the faults were at one or two fences.

If course designers are listening that’s great. Some of the bogey fences at WEC last year or the year before over by the judges box were ridiculous.

Here is one article with a proper study. The article I read that I can’t find also discussed another less formal study that found the same thing but really focused on combinations, I am pretty sure that one was done in the eastern US.

Still beyond a chance: Distribution of faults in elite show-jumping horses

Faults in international showjumping are not random

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0168159102000424?via%3Dihub