I have really considered using one, I like bit-less riding, but I’ve never liked hackmores because the horses always seem confused as to what I’m asking them when they are being pulled from the side of the head as opposed to a bit. I discovered them when looking up stuff on liberty training and I like the sound of them for my mare. I’ve already ordered a nylon one to try out on her when it gets here, but I would like to hear what the general horse community has to say about them.
[QUOTE=GrandLiena;8426498]
I have really considered using one, I like bit-less riding, but I’ve never liked hackmores because the horses always seem confused as to what I’m asking them when they are being pulled from the side of the head as opposed to a bit. I discovered them when looking up stuff on liberty training and I like the sound of them for my mare. I’ve already ordered a nylon one to try out on her when it gets here, but I would like to hear what the general horse community has to say about them.[/QUOTE]
I guess you can train a horse to anything, including nothing. So, yes, it could work. Is it optimal? Probably not. Bits were invented some 3000 or more years ago to increase the utility of horses. I’m puzzled by the strong desire in some folks to turn the clock back three millennia. If the horse has no mouth pathologies or other reasons why a bit should not be used then to abandon it seems a questionable practice. While folks can do what they want with their own horse when they recommend it to others then we have a discussion. 
G.
Plain cavesson? better to shop for what’s called a sidepull. My pony in Haiti had never had a bit in his mouth (just Haitian homemade rope halters), so I tried to keep him bitless for a while. Everything I tried (mechanical hackamore, even a super soft crossunder headstall) rubbed raw spots on his muzzle SOMEHOW, because he liked to pull for grass and was stubborn about it, and everything had hardware on his face somewhere. What finally worked without rubbing any raw spots was a smooth full-cheek snaffle. So he had to learn about bits. YMMV.
Thank you for the input, I have done a lot of contact training but I mainly wanted to get away from the bit for two reasons, one, my mare is ex-raced, so she pulls on the bit and although we have gotten over this, it always feels like her training with a bit is “muddy.” Like you said everything can be trained in or out but its not really what I want to pursue. And for two, I want to do training that is geared towards direct communication vs. tools, something where direct clear body language and cues are a necessity and not just a luxury. Recently I taught her to ride completely tack-less, so that is more of what I want to do with her. Using as little as possible outside her physically and me physically to effectively ride. So for our outside the barn training I feel that eliminating the bit is my next step. I have her trained to ride with just a rope around her neck but obviously its not really safe outside the barn so I figure this would be my happy medium.
You could just use one of these:
http://www.bigdweb.com/Jump-Hackamore/productinfo/1232T/
They mount on your regular headstall. That is what I use for trail riding and Working Equitation (since they do allow bitless in all phases.)
Thank you for showing me that, that looks a little more up my ally.
[QUOTE=GrandLiena;8426611]
I want to do training that is geared towards direct communication vs. tools[/QUOTE]
Hackamores are designed to work by putting pressure on the horse’s nose (tool?). A bit, used properly, can be a much more direct and gentler form of communication. Riders with educated seats do not pull a horse’s mouth/head, they use their weight aides. Cavessons are designed to be worn loose, not to be attached to a rein, and merely used to keep the bridle in place, or attach a martingale.
[QUOTE=Equibrit;8426864]
Hackamores are designed to work by putting pressure on the horse’s nose (tool?). A bit, used properly, can be a much more direct and gentler form of communication. Riders with educated seats do not pull a horse’s mouth/head, they use their weight aides. Cavessons are designed to be worn loose, not to be attached to a rein, and merely used to keep the bridle in place, or attach a martingale.[/QUOTE]
Very well said.
G.
If you are talking about a lunging cavesson with the metal nose piece, dressage riders of CENTURIES ago (Duke of Newcastle) did use them as a bitless system before the intruduction to the bit. If I remember correctly, the Duke of Newcastle used the Cavesson with draw reins.
I have tried 5-6 bitless systems. I have a lunging cavesson with the metal nose piece but I never tried it bitless because the rings which I could attach the reins to are either too high (on the nose) or too low (the end rings of the metal nose piece.) Most of the English type bitless systems do not have metal on the nose, and probably cause less pain if the reins get jerked hard than a lunging cavesson would give.
If the lunging cavesson you ordered does not have the metal nose piece then yes, you could probably try it out OK. But the side rings on the nose band are probably too high for subtle rein aids since, no matter how careful the rider, the nose band will move across the horse’s nasal bone more than with a side pull.
I used my longing cavesson for trail riding when I thought my horse’s teeth might be causing him pain while I waited for the dentist appointment. Horse didn’t bat an eye about the change during our ride, but he stopped avoiding me when I went to catch him in pasture after that. 
I ride primarily off seat and leg though, anyway. In general he doesn’t care for the longe cavesson because it needs to be buckled tightly across the jaw, so if I wanted to be bitless long term I’d get a side-pull.
If you want minimalism and safety, switch to a mild shanked western bit. A slight movement with your hand can be felt by the horse. You can ride around on a drape but if something goes nuts you still have a bit. Your mare won’t be able to pull on it if your reins are draped. Maybe the action of the western bit will be different enough from the direct action of English bits and she will be more accepting.
If it’s not safe to ride her away from the barn with just a neck rope then you haven’t really got her trained to go in one.
I imagine any horse would resent being pulled on by anything, be it a hackamore or a bit. Why are you pulling on your horse? That is not the way to “steer” a horse.
Is your trainer working with you on riding off your seat and leg and helping your horse learn to come into the bridle?
ETA: I have always trail-ridden in a cavesson. With a snaffle.
The point is I dont want to be pulling… And I would never ride wih a rope outside the barn thats the whole point for the bitless bridle.
[QUOTE=RPM;8428397]
ETA: I have always trail-ridden in a cavesson. With a snaffle.[/QUOTE]
A cavesson doesn’t have a place to attach a bit. Are we all talking about the same piece of tack? When I think of cavesson, I think of either a lunching cavesson with the rings or the cavesson of an English bridle (the piece that has the noseband).
Then don’t pull you don’t have to buy new tack to not pull on your horse.
Like the horses, I am confused about the pulling. Why would you pull on a horse?
I assume by “ex-raced” you mean your mare is an OTTB. Or is she a QH or a Standardbred or something else? I have known plenty of OTTBs that learned to not to pull when they were schooled in other disciplines.
Are you working with a trainer?
My mare is well educated, and is good about contact on the bit, so of course pulling wouldnt work because like a horse with a non-idiot owner, she doesnt respond to pulling, she responds to contact, but there is no bit contact on a bitless bridle so I want somethig that will use pressure as a cue. But in a hackmore thats the only thing I can seem to do, is pull. Yucky. Shes a standardbred.
She will pull against you if you pull against her, regardless of tack. Honestly a plain snaffle bit is very clear and mild communication.
Try a simple side pull design if you want to ride bitless, but with many horses, you can’t just pop one on and go. You have to train them to respond, just like you do with a neckrope.
This company makes nice products.
http://www.twohorsetack.com/c-123-sidepulls.aspx
However, keep in mind that with a bitless bridle like this your signals are somewhat muffled compared to a bit so you may find your horse leans/pulls MORE not less.
If pulling is your issue, you may need to take a step back and teach your horse not to pull. That sounds like it is more of the issue than the bit. Pulling is a two way street and you also need to learn how to stop pulling on him.
I had a horse with a low palate and a thick tongue. I rode him bitless for many years because he was more comfortable in that configuration. I had “contact” in the bridle and yes, there were times he got strong (I hunted him bitless) but he was also well trained to weight and voice aids. I will sometimes ride my current two horses bitless, especially in the winter when the bits are really cold, but they are quite happy in their bits so it isn’t a priority for me.
Sometimes you do need to try a few bits to find which is most comfortable for your horse. My mare is significantly happier in a peewee snaffle (which is a thin mullen mouth sweet iron bit) while my gelding likes the roller in a Mickmar short shank. Neither was particularly happy in a more traditional snaffle. My gelding, especially, didn’t like the very expensive double jointed snaffles that I tried. I guess he didn’t read the marketing literature.
[QUOTE=Bogie;8429043]
Try a simple side pull design if you want to ride bitless, but with many horses, you can’t just pop one on and go. You have to train them to respond, just like you do with a neckrope.
This company makes nice products.
http://www.twohorsetack.com/c-123-sidepulls.aspx
However, keep in mind that with a bitless bridle like this your signals are somewhat muffled compared to a bit so you may find your horse leans/pulls MORE not less.
If pulling is your issue, you may need to take a step back and teach your horse not to pull. That sounds like it is more of the issue than the bit. Pulling is a two way street and you also need to learn how to stop pulling on him.
I had a horse with a low palate and a thick tongue. I rode him bitless for many years because he was more comfortable in that configuration. I had “contact” in the bridle and yes, there were times he got strong (I hunted him bitless) but he was also well trained to weight and voice aids. I will sometimes ride my current two horses bitless, especially in the winter when the bits are really cold, but they are quite happy in their bits so it isn’t a priority for me.
Sometimes you do need to try a few bits to find which is most comfortable for your horse. My mare is significantly happier in a peewee snaffle (which is a thin mullen mouth sweet iron bit) while my gelding likes the roller in a Mickmar short shank. Neither was particularly happy in a more traditional snaffle. My gelding, especially, didn’t like the very expensive double jointed snaffles that I tried. I guess he didn’t read the marketing literature.[/QUOTE]
She doesn’t have an issue with a bit, I have a bit that I ride her in regularly that she responds very well to, she doesn’t pull (anymore). I was more talking about how in a hackamore I cant really give the subtle cues that I’m looking for, and the only thing I can really do with the hack is to pull her one way or the other. Which is obviously not what I want. So is this just something I need to train her to respond to? There is a general community of Hispanic people in our barn that use hacks, and I see them doing the same thing with their horses (pulling them from side to side and muscling them into everything) and none of them respond like they have any idea of what their riders are asking of them.
[QUOTE=GrandLiena;8428777]
My mare is well educated, and is good about contact on the bit, so of course pulling wouldnt work because like a horse with a non-idiot owner, she doesnt respond to pulling, she responds to contact, but there is no bit contact on a bitless bridle so I want somethig that will use pressure as a cue. But in a hackmore thats the only thing I can seem to do, is pull. Yucky. Shes a standardbred.[/QUOTE]
You’ve got what you want in a standard snaffle bit. If it ain’t broke, why fix it?
In post #4 you note that she pulls. You say she’s over it but “muddy” and you want more direct communication without “tools.” But a sidepull, a “bitless bridle,” a hackemore or a longing caveson are all “tools.” Above, you note you want to be able to apply “pressure.” That will require a “tool.” Again, I’m puzzled over what your “end game” is.
The “bitless bridle” uses significant pressure but it’s on the poll or the cheeks, not the mouth. It is not, IMO, more “humane” than a bit. One of the bedrocks of equine training is “pressure-release.” A bit applies pressure from the hand and it releases when the hand does. The bitless device often applies pressure but release can be problematical as it requires leather to work against leather. If the leather is wet or dirty it won’t “slide” correctly and when this happens “release” is not obtained. The makers and devotees don’t often note this but I’ve seen it, personally, on several occasions.
Again, if you’re getting what you need to have then “gratuitous change” might not be in the best interests of either you or the horse.
G.
