Goobs (yes, again) has been at a rehab place where he goes on the ‘dry’ treadmill every morning, the ‘wet’ treadmill every afternoon and gets ridden in between and turned out all night (i.e. – lots of activity and time out of his stall). I took his feed and clothes with him so he would stay on the same program. The first week he was fed exactly as I had asked. But they were having to walk him around with a shank over his nose and he was really high when being ridden.
So they took him off the oil and put him on Legend Omega Plus, and, within 2 days, my boy was back to being Old Shep.
The people at the rehab place see a lot of horses come through their barn, and say that they have seen oil do this to horses before. I am thinking they are right because Goober was on oil when he was hard to ride and reared up with both me and Elizabeth. Now we can hack him on a loose rein…
Yep, I’ve seen it. Why I feed horses that need calories and fat Legends Omega feed supplement and suggest it often. I’ve rehabbed many a horse that had to have a diet overhaul.
Very interesting that you also have switched to Legends Omega. There is only 1 feed store around here that carries Legend and they sell out quickly. I think that the rehab place is recommending it to a lot of their clients. 
PS: Goober is getting 2 cups in the morning and in the evening. That seems like a lot, but he is cam and has gained weight on it after only 2 weeks.
This is really interesting. I’ve never heard of horses reacting this way. I’ve heard of them not gaining weight, or sort of NQR, but not hot. I wonder what’s going on, unless it’s the high Omega 6.
If vegetable oil is being used, there is no way of knowing what vegetables were the source.
I knew a horse who got high on alfalfa. No way alfalfa makes horses hot, said the vet. And a while later the horse turned out to be allergic to alfalfa.
So it seems likely that the horses are reacting to a specific kind of oil in such a way that it affects the horse’s behaviour, but is not otherwise something we humans can see.
Just as an example, I had a horse react to something by swelling up everywhere except his head, and legs below knees and hocks. It was the weirdest thing, but he was also unusually sensitive to anything touching him. He was normally a snooze groom, but on that day he fussed, and wiggled, and moved around, and stared off at other things, and the like. I did not ride him so I couldn’t say how he behaved under saddle. But had he not had the layer of edema everywhere I might have ridden him thinking he was just having an off day because I couldn’t see anything wrong.
Since G was diagnosed as “mild PSSM” and has been on a PSSM regime Feb., I went to the Legends site to find the amount of each ingredient in the product. But nothing like that is on the site. Should I send a sample to a lab to determine if Omega Plus is OK for a PSSM horse?
Or, perhaps I should give him the ingredients (like flax and Vit E) that I know are OK in certain amounts?
Contact Southern States, they are very good about getting the info. I used to have the data sheet for it. I’ll look tonight when I get home.
Thanks — I found the page with the analysis of ingredients. I am now trying to convert ppp to parts per pound.
Am I right in thinking that “ppm” increases as the number of pounds (of feed) increases? If the selenium (in Legends Omega Plus) is .33 ppm; which is then divided by 2.2 = 0.15. So, if I feed 8 pounds per day, am I feeding 1.2 (mg?) per day? If a horse should have 2 - 3 mg/day, then I need to make sure that his other feed supplies .8 – 1.8 (mg?) per day. Right?
For some reason the fancy schmancy hay analysis I had done does not provide me with the amount of selenium in the hay… Grrrr
I’ve always calculated it as per the link.
https://www.southernstates.com/articles/selenium-nutrition-for-horses.aspx
Two measuring cups fed two times a day? If so that’s approx. 3/4 - 1 lb a day. Not bad for a supplement that comes in a 40 lb bag and 28.00 a bag.
It is high in NSC but I’ve never had an issue with my ponies or other horses sensitive to it at the small quantities it’s been fed.The ESC is very low. One lb makes a huge difference in hard keepers.
Its ESC is 1.1 Starch is 20.7 = NSC 21.8
OMG. I thought I had checked that and that the NSC was not a problem… With his PSSM, he has to stay under 12 NSC…
The ppm (parts per million, or mg of ingredient per kg of food, or 1 pound of ingredient per 1,000,000 pounds of food) is a concentration which, like a percentage, won’t vary with the amount of material. But if you feed more of the food, then the total amount will go up because you are multiplying that concentration by a larger amount of food.
Now that I have eliminated oil and Legends Omega Plus, I am still looking for a fat source. I am thinking I should just go back to good old flax seed. Which is ‘better’ (easy and cost efficient): Whole seed and grind it day by day? Ground and keep it in the (a/c) tack room? or: Buy the kind of ground that is guaranteed to stay edible for 1 year?
I will also be grateful for any other, non oil based, low NSC ideas. Rice bran oil is oil based (duh!) but what about rice bran?
It is a good thing I love da goobs so much…
Rice bran is the reason the Legends Omega Max is the NSC it is. Rice bran is over 20 percent NSC if I remember correctly. Either add flax seed or if the Legends Omega is working and not causing issues, I’d stick with that. I know what the experts say, but what can work well for one doesn’t always fit on paper.
otherwise try a different oil.
Finding the perfect diet for any PSSM horse is more art than science. You start with the science - lower the NSC, raise the fat. In the ideal world, that fat adds up to 1lb per 1000lb body weight. Why that?
In the beginning, Dr Valentine decided, via enough studies, that 1 cup oil per 500lb was the ideal. That was 2c for a 1000lb horse, and that was about 1lb. But then over even more horses, she found (IIRC) that not all horses did well on that much oil. So her thinking shifted to 1lb fat per 1000lb, which opens up all the other fat sources, like rice bran.
Then it gets tricky because yes, rice bran does bring a higher NSC with it. But that doesn’t matter for some horses since it’s a relatively small part of their diet compared to the majority, which is the forage.
ppm is mg per kg. This means 1mg per 2.2lb So yes indeed, divide the ppm .33 in this case) by 2.2 to get the amount per 1lb.
Then if you’re feeding pounds, multiply by the number of pounds. So yes, you end up with 1.2mg which is a very common amount for a normal range of feed or v/m supplement fed. 1-2mg is standard, most closer to 1mg.
If you’re feeding ounces, divide by 16 to get the mg/oz and multiply by the number of oz. Or just divide by 2, or 4, if you’re feeding 8oz or 4oz respectively, either way works.
But as above, it doesn’t matter how much is in his hay. What matters is how much is in his blood. Even if his forage were to test “high enough”, for example, maybe he doesn’t absorb it well and needs supplementation.
For some reason the fancy schmancy hay analysis I had done does not provide me with the amount of selenium in the hay… Grrrr
It doesn’t matter - selenium is one of those things you really MUST test the horse’s blood levels, and then supplement accordingly. for most horses in all but the most Se-deficient areas, the amount of forage, plus whatever Se is in their supplements and feed, makes them fine.
That’s of the total diet. You’d need to calculate the whole thing. Remember, the majority comes from his forage, and a higher NSC rice bran fed at 1-2lb isn’t going to raise the overall total significantly. It could mean needing to split his whole dose into 2 feedings so he doesn’t have an intake spike, but I think you feed twice a day anyway, so that’s ok It may not work for him. But you can’t know until you try. And for a lot of PSSM horses, it works very well
You can’t/shouldn’t feed enough flax to get to an overall higher fat diet. Rice bran, or rice bran or flax oils, are places to start. Flax oil is the most $$ option, and you’d want to make sure it’s cold pressed.
Rice bran is about 20% NSC. Legend Omega Plus is 29% NSC. If you have a Tractor Supply around, they used to carry, and assume they still do, Max-E-Glo, which is plain rice bran that is fortified with added calcium to keep the calcium/phosphorous ratio where it should be, and stabilized with added mixed tocopherols, aka Vit E to keep it from going rancid. Many feed mills also have or can get other brands of fortified and stabilized rice bran.
The easiest is probably to get a bag of stabilized ground flax like the TC Naturals one, or bottles of flax oil. Ultra Cruz has a pretty good price on gallons of pure flax oil. Which one is better probably depends on how much you are wanting to feed.
I use the HorseTech ground flax. It’s stabilized, balanced with calcium, the people are a delight to deal with, and my horse is very shiny. NutraFlax - https://horsetech.com/nutraflax
But I am not using it to provide dietary Calories.
I am now up to 9 single spaced pages of notes with numerous ‘bookmarks’… Sigh. I do not have a HorseTech nearby. I guess I would order their Nutraflax if i went that way.
HorseTech also makes E-5000 and UltraCruz Natural E (if I can read my notes) . I might also be able to get 'Seminole Stabilized Flax (again, notes are confusing).
I do have a MannaPro dealer, which means I can get ‘Simply Flax’ easily.
Other options are: Drs Foster & Smith (Nutra Flax), Triple Crown (Omega Max), Omega Fields (Omega Horseshine). KER (Equijewel — which I used when I lived in KY and loved it).
I also found that BOSS has a NSC of 5.6% and a 40% fat content!!! I had forgotten all about BOSS. Will it do what I need to do, especially if I continue to use my Vitamin E (Elevate) and the amino acids supplements?
First thing tomorrow Goobs is going back to Hassingers (they feed the Legends Omega Plus) for 3 days of treadmill work, which is why I was hoping to have decided on a different program before then. But, it is looking like I will stay with their program for another week, unless all you nice people can point your fingers at one product and say —> “that is perfect for Goobs.”
Have you tried a different type of oil other than vegetable oil? Vegetable oil I think is mostly soy oil (with some other oils thrown in there) so maybe a different type of oil would be ok.
Horsetech doesn’t have local stores. There are probably some physical stores that sell a few of their products, but it’s really online ordering. Shipping is free.
BOSS is low in NSC, yes, but it’s very high in Omega 6 (pro-inflammatory), so I’m not sure I’d want to use that.
UltraCruz Natural E is by Santa Cruz, not Horsetech.
All you can do is try something. For now, I say just go with the Legends Omega Plus, since it’s readily available, and see where you get in a month or 2.
Legends Omega Plus isn’t 29% NSC. It’s listed from Southern States and Legends as 21.8.
Nonstructural Carbohydrate Values of Horse Feeds [TABLE=“align: center, border: 1, cellpadding: 0, cellspacing: 0”]
[TR]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD=“colspan: 3”]Laboratory Analysis Values [SUP]1,2,3[/SUP][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Horse Feed and Form[/TD]
[TD]ESC[/TD]
[TD]Starch[/TD]
[TD]NSC[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Legends CarbCare Balancer Pellet (max. guarantee)[SUP]3[/SUP][/TD]
[TD]7% I[SUP]3[/SUP][/I][/TD]
[TD]5.1% I[SUP]3[/SUP][/I][/TD]
[TD]12.1% I[SUP]3[/SUP][/I][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Legends CarbCare Show & Pleasure Pelleted (max. guarantee)[SUP]3[/SUP][/TD]
[TD]3.7% B[SUP]3[/SUP][/I][/B][/TD]
[TD]9.8% I[SUP]3[/SUP][/I][/TD]
[TD]13.5% B[SUP]3[/SUP][/I][/B][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Legends CarbCare Performance Pelleted/Extruded (max. guarantee)[SUP]3[/SUP][/TD]
[TD]4.3% I[SUP]3[/SUP][/I][/TD]
[TD]9.6% I[SUP]3[/SUP][/I][/TD]
[TD]13.9% I[SUP]3[/SUP][/I][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Legends CarbCare Senior Pelleted/Extruded) (max. guarantee)[SUP]3[/SUP][/TD]
[TD]4.9% I[SUP]3[/SUP][/I][/TD]
[TD]9.8% B[SUP]3[/SUP][/I][/B][/TD]
[TD]14.7% I[SUP]3[/SUP][/I][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Legends Growth Textured[/TD]
[TD]8%[/TD]
[TD]24.2%[/TD]
[TD]32.2%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Legends Growth Pelleted[/TD]
[TD]4.1%[/TD]
[TD]21.4%[/TD]
[TD]25.5%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Legends Sport Horse Textured [/TD]
[TD]10%[/TD]
[TD]22.3%[/TD]
[TD]32.3%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Legends Sport Horse Plus Textured [/TD]
[TD]7.5%[/TD]
[TD]27.1%[/TD]
[TD]34.6%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Legends Race & Compete Textured [/TD]
[TD]8.5%[/TD]
[TD]17%[/TD]
[TD]25.5%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Legends Fortified Pelleted Rice Bran Extruded [/TD]
[TD]4.6%[/TD]
[TD]17.4%[/TD]
[TD]22.0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Legends Omega Plus Extruded [/TD]
[TD]1.1%[/TD]
[TD]20.7%[/TD]
[TD]21.8%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Legends GastroTech Supplement Pelleted[/TD]
[TD]5.1%[/TD]
[TD]11.4%[/TD]
[TD]16.5%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Southern States Reliance Textured [/TD]
[TD]9.4%[/TD]
[TD]18.8%[/TD]
[TD]28.2%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Southern States Reliance Pelleted [/TD]
[TD]3.7%[/TD]
[TD]24.5%[/TD]
[TD]28.2%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Southern States Hay Stretcher Pelleted [/TD]
[TD]4.2%[/TD]
[TD]11.8%[/TD]
[TD]16.0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Southern States Solution Pelleted [/TD]
[TD]4.5%[/TD]
[TD]16%[/TD]
[TD]20.5%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Southern States Triple 10 Textured [/TD]
[TD]6.4%[/TD]
[TD]15.5%[/TD]
[TD]21.9%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Southern States Fiber Plus Textured[/TD]
[TD]10%[/TD]
[TD]8.5%[/TD]
[TD]18.5%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Select Plus Textured [/TD]
[TD]7.3%[/TD]
[TD]19.3%[/TD]
[TD]26.6%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Select Plus Pelleted [/TD]
[TD]2.9%[/TD]
[TD]16.1%[/TD]
[TD]19.0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Select Stock Textured[/TD]
[TD]3.1%[/TD]
[TD]14.9%[/TD]
[TD]18.0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Select Stock Pelleted[/TD]
[TD]3.6%[/TD]
[TD]25.5%[/TD]
[TD]29.1%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Triple Crown Training Formula Textured [/TD]
[TD]5.5%[/TD]
[TD]15.6%[/TD]
[TD]21.1%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Triple Crown Complete Formula Textured [/TD]
[TD]8.8%[/TD]
[TD]11.8%[/TD]
[TD]20.6%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Triple Crown Senior Formula Textured [/TD]
[TD]5.3%[/TD]
[TD]6.4%[/TD]
[TD]11.7%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Triple Crown Growth Formula Textured [/TD]
[TD]7.8%[/TD]
[TD]10.5%[/TD]
[TD]18.3%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Triple Crown Low Starch Formula Pelleted [/TD]
[TD]3.1%[/TD]
[TD]10.4%[/TD]
[TD]13.5%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Triple Crown Total Lifetime Care Pelleted [/TD]
[TD]5%[/TD]
[TD]8.3%[/TD]
[TD]13.3%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Triple Crown Lite Formula Pelleted [/TD]
[TD]4.8%[/TD]
[TD]4.5%[/TD]
[TD]9.3%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Triple Crown Naturals Pelleted[/TD]
[TD]7.0%[/TD]
[TD]12.8%[/TD]
[TD]19.8%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Triple Crown 30% Ration Balancer Pelleted [/TD]
[TD]8%[/TD]
[TD]1.8%[/TD]
[TD]9.8%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Triple Crown Safe Starch Forage Chopped [/TD]
[TD]4.3%[/TD]
[TD]1.8%[/TD]
[TD]6.1%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Triple Crown Alfa-Lox Forage Chopped [/TD]
[TD]6.6%[/TD]
[TD]0.6%[/TD]
[TD]7.2%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Triple Crown Grass Forage Chopped [/TD]
[TD]8.1%[/TD]
[TD]2.7%[/TD]
[TD]10.8%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Triple Crown Alfalfa Forage Blend Chopped [/TD]
[TD]8.0%[/TD]
[TD]4.7%[/TD]
[TD]12.7%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Triple Crown Timothy Balance Cubes[/TD]
[TD]7.1%[/TD]
[TD]1.6%[/TD]
[TD]8.7%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[SUP]1[/SUP]Values determined by Equi-Analytical Laboratories, Ithaca, NY and reported on as sampled or as fed basis. ESC is ethanol-soluble carbohydrates or simple sugars, NSC or nonstructural carbohydrates is defined as NSC = Starch + ESC. Select horse feeds with 40% or less NSC and limit meal size to 0.5% BW for horses without insulin resistance to maintain normal blood glucose and insulin levels and reduce risk of laminitis. Select horse feeds with 20% or less NSC and limit meal size to 0.5% BW to maintain normal blood glucose and insulin levels for horses with insulin resistance and/or a history of laminitis, and horses with excitable behavior. Select horse feeds with less than 15% NSC and limit meal size to 0.5% BW for horses with tying up diseases (Type 1 and 2 PSSM and RER). Select horse feeds with more than 20% NSC and higher fat content or add fat supplements for horses needing more stamina in speed-intensive activities and events.
[SUP]2[/SUP]For cool season forages fed to horses, consider an NSC value which includes fructans or water soluble carbohydrates (WSC) in addition to Starch and ESC values or NSC as defined in this chart. High levels of fructan sugars present in cool season forages increase the risk of laminitis when consumed in large amounts. Fructan sugars don’t affect blood glucose and insulin levels and are not present in significant amounts in non-forage equine feedstuffs.
[SUP]3[/SUP]Values are from fixed-ingredient formulas and are maximum sugar and starch guarantees derived from formulation software with an added coefficient of variation to account for variability of sampling, laboratory analysis and feed ingredients. Analyzed laboratory values for sugar and starch and total nonstructural carbohydrates will be lower than maximum guaranteed values. Guarantees for sugar and starch content are expressed as “Sugars” and “Dietary Starch” according to AAFCO recommendations.
