Has Anyone Here Done Any Packing?

If you go to our Back Country Horsemen of Utah page, www.bchu.com and check on Education link on left side you’ll see lots of tips on packing. And as has been noted, you do have a chapter in your neighborhood and they’d be happy to provide you with info and potentially even some training/practice opportunities.

We do occasional clinics and pack trips for those new to it- and come to think of it I will be doing some demos next week, including one on how to pack the horse you are riding with the needed gear, food and etc for 2 or 3 days. Handy option for those who don’t have, or don’t want to use, a separate pack horse.

I don’t know what your commitment is to packing, but a couple of suggestions to get you started.

Start with some saddle panniers that you can just throw over your riding saddles. They are $100 vs the $800-$900 cost of a dedicated decker or sawbuck pack saddle. We use saddle panniers a lot for elk hunting, We can roll them up and tie them behind the cantle and ride the horse all day. If we shot an elk, We can unroll the panniers and throw them over the saddle and pack the elk out as we walk leading the horses.

Also in the early days, when I didn’t have enough horses and a smaller trailer. I would pack the horses with panniers, lead them into the area we were packing into, after setting up camp, I could use the same saddles/horses to ride day rides from camp. It’s an easy way to get your feet wet in packing.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p259/Painted-Horse/2009/Uintas/Meadows.jpg

Where we go we can allow the horses to graze.But often in the fall during hunting season, there is not a lot of graze left.or it’s covered with snow. We always bring in the high calorie feed to suppliment what ever graze the horses can get. I hobble the horse and let them graze when I can. Basically they pick up the roughage grazine and then we add the grain for colories. During hunting, I will often make two trips in, One trip hauling our wall tent and sleeping bags and other camp items, Second trip hauling haul pellets for the horses. When we can, We set up a hot wire around any meadows and turn the horses out to graze. My horses know what a hot wire is and respect if, just as long as I make the enclosure large enough so they are not crowding each other into it. This photo show 2 quarter mile rolls of hot wire set up on 40 post around a meadow with 19 horses.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p259/Painted-Horse/2009/Uintas/Horses3.jpg

We always high line the horses at night and any time during the day when we might be away from camp and the horses would be unsupervised. I’ve had elk and deer run thru or hot wire and know the hot wire down. If unsupervised, the horses would just head back to the truck when the hotwire is down.

Start out with some short trips. Maybe one night packed in, that way the horses can recharge and fill up when your return to the trailer.
I have to admit, even with the best plans, my horses alway seem to come out of the mountains looking a little gaunt, There is no way I can feed them as much as they get at home.
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p259/Painted-Horse/2010/Elk%20Hunting/Elk-Talking.jpg

Go and have fun. nothing bonds you to your horses like spending a few nights camping with them.

I don’t know what your commitment is to packing, but a couple of suggestions to get you started.

Start with some saddle panniers that you can just throw over your riding saddles. They are $100 vs the $800-$900 cost of a dedicated decker or sawbuck pack saddle. We use saddle panniers a lot for elk hunting, We can roll them up and tie them behind the cantle and ride the horse all day. If we shot an elk, We can unroll the panniers and throw them over the saddle and pack the elk out as we walk leading the horses.

Also in the early days, when I didn’t have enough horses and a smaller trailer. I would pack the horses with panniers, lead them into the area we were packing into, after setting up camp, I could use the same saddles/horses to ride day rides from camp. It’s an easy way to get your feet wet in packing.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p259/Painted-Horse/2009/Uintas/Meadows.jpg

Where we go we can allow the horses to graze.But often in the fall during hunting season, there is not a lot of graze left.or it’s covered with snow. We always bring in the high calorie feed to suppliment what ever graze the horses can get. I hobble the horse and let them graze when I can. Basically they pick up the roughage grazine and then we add the grain for colories. During hunting, I will often make two trips in, One trip hauling our wall tent and sleeping bags and other camp items, Second trip hauling haul pellets for the horses. When we can, We set up a hot wire around any meadows and turn the horses out to graze. My horses know what a hot wire is and respect if, just as long as I make the enclosure large enough so they are not crowding each other into it. This photo show 2 quarter mile rolls of hot wire set up on 40 post around a meadow with 19 horses.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p259/Painted-Horse/2009/Uintas/Horses3.jpg

We always high line the horses at night and any time during the day when we might be away from camp and the horses would be unsupervised. I’ve had elk and deer run thru or hot wire and know the hot wire down. If unsupervised, the horses would just head back to the truck when the hotwire is down.

Start out with some short trips. Maybe one night packed in, that way the horses can recharge and fill up when your return to the trailer.
I have to admit, even with the best plans, my horses alway seem to come out of the mountains looking a little gaunt, There is no way I can feed them as much as they get at home.
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p259/Painted-Horse/2010/Elk%20Hunting/Elk-Talking.jpg

Go and have fun. nothing bonds you to your horses like spending a few nights camping with them.

Thanks Beverly! Lovely pics! It is great that all of you with so much experience are so helpful. I appreciate it.

We actually were thinking also of trying to get the larger packs and carrying what we need for a night on our own horses versus taking a pack horse this first time out. As we learn, we can get more sophisticated.

I’m going to have so much fun doing this!

[QUOTE=Daydream Believer;6382405]
Thanks Beverly! Lovely pics! It is great that all of you with so much experience are so helpful. I appreciate it.

We actually were thinking also of trying to get the larger packs and carrying what we need for a night on our own horses versus taking a pack horse this first time out. As we learn, we can get more sophisticated.

I’m going to have so much fun doing this![/QUOTE]

If you are going to carry everything on your person/horse then you will be camping “very light.”

The standard load for the U.S. Cavalry was 230-250 lbs., including rider, tack, weapons, ammo, etc. There were very strict rules on what could be carried, how it was packed, etc. The Cavalryman of the day had a weapons load of about 20 lb. (M1903 rifle, M1911 pistol, 80 rounds of .30-06, 20 rounds of .45ACP, M1913 saber; after 1936 delete the saber). If you’re not carrying a weapons load then you have some room for a tent, blivvy, food, etc. But you don’t have a lot of room and you still have to load carefully to keep it balanced on the horse.

And the average cavalryman of the day seldom weighed more than 150 lbs. Modern humans run a bit bigger. :wink:

Also, the McClellan saddle, fully rigged, was about 15 lbs. A light Western saddle will be close to double that.

You can do an overnight without much trouble, but past that you’ll run into weight problems with your food (for both you and the horse).

Good luck and have fun, but keep your scale handy as you load up!!! :slight_smile:

G.

Thanks Guilherme…I will watch the weight. I’m used to camping very light and most of my gear…tents, sleeping bags, air mattresses etc…is for backpacking. My usual weight that I carry backpacking is about 30-35 lbs (including water) and that is everything I need for several days to include food, shelter, clothing, wet weather gear, etc…I mean everything. I can purify water as I go so I don’t carry more than a day’s worth here in the East or along the AT. Food we eat is generally dehydrated hiker fare, nuts, dried fruits and meats, etc… but having the horses might enable us to eat a bit better than normal. I even have a tiny alcohol stove that is very lightweight for heating water. Backpackers consider ounces when packing. I’ve seen entire discussion on the AT forum on how to save weight in packs. It an obsessive topic for backpackers when you are the one toting the pack up a mountain.

Our sturdy Spanish Mustangs all well able to carry 250 to 300 lbs if we need them to but I doubt we’ll have to carry that much. I think the biggest problem we’d have with no pack horse is feed concentrates for our horses assuming we cannot graze them…and that is what we have to assume in the Smokies. Mt Rogers has some grazing areas so that might work easier. I weigh about 115 and my husband more towards 160 or so. Our saddles are fairly light also. Mine’s an Abetta and his is a Bob Marshall.

If we camp at horse camps though throughout the Smokies and can arrange to have provisions for the horses waiting for us, that will make it much much easier. Kind of cheating but for our first time out overnight like that with our horses, it might not be a bad idea.

Great points though and very interesting about the cavalry history! Thanks!

If your mustangs are carrying 300 pounds they are 1500 pounds themselves?? ASking a horse to carry too much isn’t really fair, IMO and not safe. The best formula, roughly, is about 1/5 body weight, usually about 250 pounds. So, saddle weight (can find 23 lbs for a lightweight saddle but whatever it is), pad weight(6 lbs?), halter, leads and bridle, 5 lbs in the cantle pouch (raincoat, rain chaps, gloves), 15 pounds in the saddle bags, (water bottle, moisture, lunch, leatherman tool, mini mag flashlight, batteries, fly spray, U dig spade, first aid kit, map, hobbles if you use them, fire starter, compass) 25 pounds riding attire (warm enough to spend the night in, good wide brimmed hat, t shirt, T neck sweater, long sleeve shirt, fleece vest, jacket, can tie on what you don’t want to wear but it should be handy), 2 lbs camera case?? (for binos, more bug spray) and you! Should come to 1/5 your horses weight!

So, you will still need feed, sleeping gear, food, a camp stove (unless eating cold dinner), tent if you need one, etc. As someone else recommended, DEFINITELY need a handly little scale to weigh! You’ll find out your saddle weight, pad wieght, bridle/halter weight, etc. Folks like cowboy mom can probably do it without weighing but it takes a while and a lot of practice to get the loads even! Make sure your boots are VERY comfortable in case you have to walk!!

well… we put 80 to 90 each side on an in-shape big boned pack horse-on a light day we put 60 on each side. Saddle and pads are probably 20-ish. If you balance it right you can put some weight on-we’ve done as much as 90 on each side and we baby our packhorses, they aren’t dragging by any means. And by weight we mean what is in the pannier, people don’t generally weigh everything like the saddle and what you ate for lunch.

If we’re thinking about what goes on the actual horse? good gravy. My husband weighs 200, his saddle/pads/gun/saddle bags weigh probably 100 and then you have your coats/ect… Easily my husband and his gear are worth 300 and he’s ridden all sorts of horses, from my daughter’s arab to a friend’s arab to a tall TB type to a NSH and his ol’ reliable 14.1 hand Morgan mare… I really don’t worry until you’re upwards of 300 lbs AND AND the horse is saying enough already.

And back in the day-he on that morgan mare and me on a generic qh filly camped for three days in the wilderness with what we had behind the saddles. backpacking lightweight sleeping bags, a tarp, some hot dogs, a water filter, trail mix, bottle of whiskey… we were good. good times. :slight_smile:

sounds like fun, CM! We do baby ours! And so far,going strong! Or, mostly strong anyway! Pretty up and down hill over here and want to make sure those legs stay strong, no early arthritis, tendon issues, microfractures and other issues from overweighting. I do have one with feet that need regular attention, so, yes, I am very attentive to weight! FWIW, dude ranches tend to limit riders to those under 200, not over 250 I would bet for 99%. your trips sound great, but I still limit mine to roughly 20% and that seems to work out, for us anyway!!.

Actually I can do 3 days but of course not gourmet dining, and knowing there’s good grass for the horses so that I don’t have to pack much, if anything, in the way of feed. I use large saddle bags with a biggish duffel that straps over the top of those behind the cantle, and some pommel bags. Have a tiny lightweight sleeping bag (not for real cold weather), one person tent, use my water bottle w/ the charcoal filter, etc. Can do on the big gelding, but not, for the weight considerations, on the little mare.

[QUOTE=lilitiger2;6382945]
sounds like fun, CM! We do baby ours! And so far,going strong! Or, mostly strong anyway! Pretty up and down hill over here and want to make sure those legs stay strong, no early arthritis, tendon issues, microfractures and other issues from overweighting. I do have one with feet that need regular attention, so, yes, I am very attentive to weight! FWIW, dude ranches tend to limit riders to those under 200, not over 250 I would bet for 99%. your trips sound great, but I still limit mine to roughly 20% and that seems to work out, for us anyway!!.[/QUOTE]

The 20% rule is often cited but has no basis in fact. I mean, why 20% as opposed to 19% or 21%?

Some claim the British and U.S. Cavalry used a 20% rule. After a lot of research I’ve come to the conclusion that they did not. It does show up once in a book published by a former cavalryman in 1941. But it never appears in any formal regulations. And, as noted above, there were very strict and detailed regs. on how to pack of horse for field service.

In the U.S., the standard production of the Remount Service (after 1906) was a TB-type gelding, 15-16 hands, 900-1100 lbs. The standard load was 230-250 lbs. Doing the math, the percentages work out to a low of 20.9% to 27.7%. The British load was slightly larger than the U.S. load as the tack was heavier (UP saddle and bridle, primarily). There’s a note in the U.S. Cavalry Journal late in WWI documenting an Austrian Army “Officer’s Patrol” (a scouting mission) where the average load on the horses as 330 lbs. and they were out for eight days without issues of sorness or breakdown. The specific type of horse was not mentioned, but by late in the War the Central Powers were running out of eveything, including large horses.

During peacetime service a horse was expected to have a 10-12 year service life. But these were real working horses, not “pasture plugs.” Enlistments were shorter in those days, and that horse may have a dozen or more riders during that period of time. So soundness was not compromised by higher numbers.

Individuals can do what they want to with their horses for whatever reason they want to. But there is no historical support for a 20% rule, or any other arbitrary “weight standard.”

G.

That’s really interesting Guilherme…thanks for sharing. I was going to say earlier that I know of a lot of people who have really loaded down the smaller Spanish Mustangs with no problem. I was afraid of getting flamed so I didn’t say anything until now. They are typically solid with good bone and short backs and can carry some weight. One of our young mares last summer carried about 27% of her weight for two days of hard riding up at Mt. Rogers. We lent her to a friend for the weekend and she did absolutely fine. Historical information is fascinating to me and it often does shoot modern notions completely down.

Guilherme…correct me if I’m wrong… but wasn’t the cavalry horse early on through the mid to late 1800’s and indian war era a horse of mainly morgan or (Spanish type) mustang blood crossed with some TB to add size? They intentionally crossed to the Remount TB stallions to get more size but wanted the bone and substance of the smaller sturdier breeds. Comanche, Capt. Keogh’s horse was a good example I think. Knowing also that early TB’s were not much like todays light boned bad hooved critters…that had to make some difference.

Thanks to all of you again for sharing. Great discussion!

[QUOTE=Daydream Believer;6383400]
That’s really interesting Guilherme…thanks for sharing. I was going to say earlier that I know of a lot of people who have really loaded down the smaller Spanish Mustangs with no problem. I was afraid of getting flamed so I didn’t say anything until now. They are typically solid with good bone and short backs and can carry some weight. One of our young mares last summer carried about 27% of her weight for two days of hard riding up at Mt. Rogers. We lent her to a friend for the weekend and she did absolutely fine. Historical information is fascinating to me and it often does shoot modern notions completely down.

Guilherme…correct me if I’m wrong… but wasn’t the cavalry horse early on through the mid to late 1800’s and indian war era a horse of mainly morgan or (Spanish type) mustang blood crossed with some TB to add size? They intentionally crossed to the Remount TB stallions to get more size but wanted the bone and substance of the smaller sturdier breeds. Comanche, Capt. Keogh’s horse was a good example I think. Knowing also that early TB’s were not much like todays light boned bad hooved critters…that had to make some difference.

Thanks to all of you again for sharing. Great discussion![/QUOTE]

Good conformation and good riding are the keys to long term soundness. You don’t want to load up a horse with junk you don’t need, but kilos, alone, are not really the issue.

As to type, you could start a pretty good fist fight in a 19th Century cavalry officer’s club over what type of horse was best as a cavalry mount. The Europeans, who had a strong influence on the U.S. Cavalry through Samur, favored a “TB/WB type” horse. That type was called, oddly enough, the “American” horse. That type was quite appropriate to Europe, particularly Northern and Central Europe. East of the Big Muddy that was the type favored by the U.S. Out West that type did not work out as well, and a more “native” type of horse was generally used. In those days the Quarter Master was responsible for providing mounts, but the Regimental Commander decided what he’d accept from the QM. Agents were typically hired to find remounts. It was a system rife with corruption. One of the Army’s big failures in the Spanish American War was the Cavalry. It was an embarrassment and it lead to the establishment of the Remount Service.

When large herds of Indian horses were captured they were generally disposed of by giving significant numbers to the Indian and civilian scouts/teamsters/others and putting the rest down. They were seldom, if ever, incorporated into a regiment. This speaks volumes about what at least senior officers thought of the “native” stock.

The Army also bought few, if any, “mustangs.” If they found an “American” horse with a herd a mustanger would try for it 'cause it was worth more money. The rest would fit nicely in the lines of an old cowboy songs that sings of the “Ten Dollar horse and Forty Dollar saddle.” :wink:

For most Army officers it was the type that counted. Few thought much of the “native” horse although they were willing to use them as required. But when the need for that type of horse was done (at the end of the Indian Wars) they were abandoned.

Note that one reason the Army could use the “American” horse even in the West was that the Army had a logistics system capable of supporting it in the field. The Indians generally saw “war” and “battle” as synonyms. They did not understand the concept of the “campaign.” So the Army would go after the Indians in the winter, when forage was scarce. The Army carried forage and fodder with them. The Indian could not do this. This would, ultimately, break the back of Indian resistance on the Plains.

As to Morgans and Arabians, a number were donated to the Army by very wealthy and influential people (including Dr. Kellogg of corn flake fame). The Army accepted the donations, established farms for them, and then ignored them. The Morgans did find some favor with the Artillery, as they could both ride and drive and for light guns were very suitable. The Arabians found favor with a few officers, but that’s about it. The Remount Service was 90% TB types, with a smattering of “others” (including exactly one ASB :slight_smile: ).

G.

[QUOTE=Guilherme;6383367]
The 20% rule is often cited but has no basis in fact. Individuals can do what they want to with their horses for whatever reason they want to. But there is no historical support for a 20% rule, or any other arbitrary “weight standard.”
G.[/QUOTE]

Well actually there is…"[I]When carrying 15 and 20% of their body weight, the horses showed relatively little indication of stress. It’s when they were packing weights of 25% that physical signs changed markedly, and these became accentuated under 30% loads.

The horses had noticeably faster breathing and higher heart rates when carrying tack and rider amounting to 25% or more of their body weight. A day after trotting and cantering with the heftier weights, the horses’ muscles showed substantially greater soreness and tightness. Those horses that were least sore from the exercise had wider loins, the part of a horse’s back located between their last rib and croup.

Based on these results, the study’s authors recommend that horses not be loaded with greater than 20% of their body weight. A 545-kilogram (1200 pound) horse, then would be best off carrying no more than 109 kg (240 lbs) of tack and rider. [/I] Its from Horse Science News.

Nothing like using basic common sense; I don’t know anyone who weighs their horse on a scale before trips and packs to the knat’s a$$, but it looks like the cavalry did know what it was doing!! Still seems like a pretty reasonable rule of thumb (what both our vet and farrier use when they pack) to avoid problems. And weight distribution/terrain/length of time play a big factor as well. Obviously, some horses and mules can pack more and some much less! My grandfather was US Cavalry chasing Poncho Villa around the southwest and he was fanatical about horse care:)

[QUOTE=Daydream Believer;6383400]
. Comanche, Capt. Keogh’s horse was a good example I think. [/QUOTE]

You are exactly right! Comanche, the only survivor of Greasy Grass, was thought to be mostly mustang! :slight_smile: And the Army used plenty of Morgans as well, not surprisingly.

And, on the completely unrelated (but interesting) topic, as far as breaking the resistance,nothing like exterminating the food source (buffalo, totally disgraceful), destroying their horses when they got them (by the thousands) rounding them up to put on reservations so they could be starved and infected with small pox, lying and cheating on “treaties”-yep, all pretty effective.

As my husband (Blackfeet) says, a quote from Pontiac-“They came with their Bible and their religion, stole our land, crushed our spirit, and now they tell us we should be thankful to the Lord for being saved.”:lol:

Nothing to do with weight and packing,just a brutal side note from a disgraceful period of American history (and its not over, hello Bush Administration’s refusal to settle the Indian Trust Fund suit!, a TOTALLY unrelated subject, good for OT day!!!)

[QUOTE=lilitiger2;6383471]
Well actually there is…"[I]When carrying 15 and 20% of their body weight, the horses showed relatively little indication of stress. It’s when they were packing weights of 25% that physical signs changed markedly, and these became accentuated under 30% loads.

The horses had noticeably faster breathing and higher heart rates when carrying tack and rider amounting to 25% or more of their body weight. A day after trotting and cantering with the heftier weights, the horses’ muscles showed substantially greater soreness and tightness. Those horses that were least sore from the exercise had wider loins, the part of a horse’s back located between their last rib and croup.

Based on these results, the study’s authors recommend that horses not be loaded with greater than 20% of their body weight. A 545-kilogram (1200 pound) horse, then would be best off carrying no more than 109 kg (240 lbs) of tack and rider. [/I] Its from Horse Science News.

Nothing like using basic common sense; I don’t know anyone who weighs their horse on a scale before trips and packs to the knat’s a$$, but it looks like the cavalry did know what it was doing!! Still seems like a pretty reasonable rule of thumb (what both our vet and farrier use when they pack) to avoid problems. And weight distribution/terrain/length of time play a big factor as well. Obviously, some horses and mules can pack more and some much less! My grandfather was US Cavalry chasing Poncho Villa around the southwest and he was fanatical about horse care:)[/QUOTE]

I’ve read the abstract of this study, but never the whole thing. That cost north of $30 (IIRC) and I was not a member of the site that posted it.

Of course if a horse shows stress at 15% then should we not reduce it to 10%? Or zero %?

Further, because I don’t know the terms and conditions of the test I don’t know exactly what they were measuring or how the measuring was done. If you had a relative chasing Villa he was carrying in excess of 20% of his horse’s weight, particularly after a week or two in the field when horses were “hardened” to work.

It’s clear that you have some ethnic “bone” to pick with the U.S. Cavalry due to their actions during the Indian Wars. That’s just fine fine by me; pick a bone with anyone you want to. But read the history (and be sure to read about the British in South Africa in the Boer War and some other major operations) before you figure you know more than people with several hundred years of institutional experience behind them.

G.

[QUOTE=Guilherme;6384947]
It’s clear that you have some ethnic “bone” to pick with the U.S. Cavalry due to their actions during the Indian Wars. That’s just fine fine by me; pick a bone with anyone you want to. But read the history (and be sure to read about the British in South Africa in the Boer War and some other major operations) before you figure you know more than people with several hundred years of institutional experience behind them.
G.[/QUOTE]

You said there was no study and I cited a study. You may not like it, but there is a study. If you don’t like the 20% formula, don’t use it. I thought we were just sharing experience and opinions, so people can take what they like and leave the rest, no?

My grandfather rode with the cavalry after Villa. I have no idea what packing formula he used as I never packed with him, but he was a lean, athletic guy (handy for the WWI trenches he was in later). He adored his horse and spoke of him often, shared many cavalry stories and had my mother and uncle riding as toddlers. I think I said that I used the 20% formula, it worked, a study found kind of the same thing, and what do you know? the cavalry used the same idea! Not sure what you are arguing with there.

As far as “ethnic bone” I also think I stated I am married to a Blackfeet. I have worked with Native clients in New Mexico and Arizona and no, am not impressed with the history and actions of the cavalry during the Indian Wars.I am on various reservations and see the legacy of this frequently, sadly, still very evident. Obviously you are entitled to your views, but simply mentioning other atrocities (Boer War!) hardly redeems the holocaust of the Native/First people right here in river city. Sadly, lots of horrific stories from Africa. Atrocitites are atrocities.

You might want to read on this topic if it is one with which you are unfamiliar. You seem interested in history, and I recommend In the Spirit of Crazy Horse (Peter Mattheisen, a wonderful writer) for an excellent discussion of US Indian policy, or a novel, Fools Crow (James Welch).

I did not say there were no studies. I said there is no basis in fact for the rule.

Yes, you cited a study. That does not make the study valid; it does not make the study flawed. It just makes it a study. It’s been my experience (professional and otherwise) that not all studies are created equal. Unless and until I can read the full study (not available on line and I’ve not yet tried to tap any of my contacts at the local vet. school) I’ll reserve judgement.

The 20% rule is arbitrary. The study clearly supports that conclusion as that is one of the “bench marks” they chose to use. Whether or not that is also material in evaluating equine performance is the issue.

If you want to learn more about Cavalry history I’d invite you to come to Ft. Riley, KS in September for the National Cavalry Competition. http://www.uscavalry.org/events/current-events.html

G.

A book suggestion…it’s fiction but based on the life of a real person called Paha Sapa…the book is “Black Hills.” I can’t recall the author but it was from the perspective of an old Lakota man who survived the Greasy Grass as a child and touched Custer…counting coup… just as he died supposedly taking Custer’s ghost into his own body. Sounds corny I know but it was an amazingly good book and really gets into the NA life, mysticism as well as the history of the Native Americans in that era. Apparently you find out at the end that Paha Sapa was a real person. There were many atrocities at that time…it was a different time with different thinking… Atrocities were committed by both sides and it hard for us to judge this looking back from today’s gentler times.

I do find it kind of funny that the cavalry scorned the native ponies but their own horses couldn’t catch one if they had to run it down. It was only, as Guilherme pointed out, until they took the war into the winter when the indians were camped and the ponies (not grain fed as the cavalry horses were) were thin from foraging, that they finally were able to subdue and defeat them. They killed the ponies en masse…slaughtered them by the thousands…because they knew by doing so, they cut off the legs of the tribes. We who have the descendants of these horses in the Spanish Mustang breed of today shudder at the idea. I believe there is a valley today out west…I can’t recall where…but the Native Americas still pray over the bones of the ponies slaughtered there…a couple of thousand in one afternoon.

Anyway, some of our breeds foundation stock descended from native herds in the early 1900’s…Choctaw Indian Nations, (Kiamachi mountains, to include Cherokee and Nez Perce lines also), as well as Cheyenne and Navajo. A number were feral from very isolated herds…remember this was decades ago…not the very mixed heritage BLM mustangs of today…and others came from ranch herds like Gilbert Jones and others who kept them straight and did not mix them with outside stock.

Anyway, I digress. Got to run.

Guilherme,
This is simply a forum to exchange ideas. If you don’t like one, don’t follow it! If you don’t agree with the idea that horses do well with 20% of their body weight, don’t pack that way! Use 19 3/8 or 28 5/16! Obviously, many horses carry more, many carry less. Its been a handy formula for me which is why I shared it. You said there was no basis for this, and I offered you at least one study that supported it. I have no idea of the study parameters because I don’t care. I don’t base my weight decisions on it! I spoke to my vet and my farrier and local outfitters and, so far, so good. If I find something that gets me to change my mind, I will.

I still have no idea what your point is. That horses can carry more? Put more on your horse! That the US Cavalry’s behavior in the Indian Wars was not as bad as the behavior of others, elsewhere? Again, whatever you want to believe about that. I stated that I thought the whole topic, while very interesting (to me anyway because I am involved in it daily), is probably not really related to packing. Yes, I find the whole treatment of Native Americans pretty appalling, and find the Cavalry’s behavior both consistent and disgraceful (and the ideology clearly lives on, sadly) but certainly not everyone is equally compelled by this issue, and this is NOT a policy page, but a forum for people who love horses.