There is a clinic in the spring with Thomas Ritter. Anyone have any feedback? He sounds very classical.
If anyone else is interested,
contact dianabeuchert@erols.com for more info
[Note: This message has been edited by Melinda]
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DebS:
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Some one wants to talk about a clinician, someone is actually riding in the clinic, they get shot out of the water and the conversation turns to religion and shopping.
…whatever works for you…
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You can always change it to whatever you want, we aren’t that biased out here…
Don’t understand the angry face…unless it is tied to some of the issues we’ve been discussing in this string. Having holiday anger/blues? 
Okay, I’ll bite on this bait again. Unless you guys are 60 years old (or more) you aren’t exactly “old.” And, I don’t think passion has anything to do with age. I think it has to do with how you live your life.
You only go around once, but if you do it right, once is enough.
If doing it right for you means being passionate in everything you do, do it. If it means sitting back and watching the world go by, do it.
I guess I see that everyone out here has been pretty passionate in their replies, including you. It’s the spice of life and a difference of opinions and argumentative statements are all part of the whole. I think it should all be taken in and reviewed. We all impact each other and leave an imprint of our feelings or our behaviors on another human being, whether it’s fact-to-face or in discussions such as these. A little “jerking of the chain” is not necessarily a bad thing, nor is stating your personal opinion–no matter what board you chose.
Okay, enough said. Maybe I’m old enough to know better. Then again, maybe I’m growing older, but I chose not to grow up because I would consider that boring. The wisdom expressed here from many years on the planet, and many years working in dressage with DQs and down to earth riders is that they all need to sometimes lighten up…and if taking the conversation to an extreme (sometimes extremely uncomfortable place for others) appears as if it needs to be done to help people “get over themselves” a bit, I’ll always bite.
Heck, a good argument is a living thing and definitely worth experiencing when everyone involved is articulate and doesn’t bring it down to the level of simplistic insults and name calling (which I don’t think any of us have done out here).
Yes, I am passionate. Thank you for noticing. And, to add insult to those who are already injured by the course this string has taken, part of it is probably driven by life and the impending season that I dread.
Don’t let your own assumptions take precedence over facts, either. I don’t think you see the entire picture, I think you are passionate in your defense of what you believe is right, correct, and true…and what you THINK you see behind these posts.
… look at his website – ALL horses have hocks NOT UNDER their body – but lagging out behind. Why? Bad moment, or bad judgement in posting the photos (consistenly bad judgement?)…
I watched this clinician and left nearly in TEARS at what I saw done to the horses. Plus, look at the resume on the website above – “cliniced with Charles DeKunffy” and little more… In My Humble Opinion, that just shows anyone can hang out their shingle as a “classical” trainer these days. Sorry, I audited and simply can’t share the enthusiasm. I just LOVE horses – and people – too much.
What are this gentleman’s qualifications other than German licensing? What has he done in this country besides go to clinics?
You know, I’m beginning to feel like every time I go to a site about “classical dressage” what is really meant is “dressage on any kind/breed of horse–with some groundwork, haute ecole and airs above the ground stuff in there, too…but not much in terms of upper level competition.”
I acknowledge differences between clasical and competitive dressage, but the big problem I have with the former, unlike the latter, is that you so often see horses doing upper level movements who have not developed the physical stature (carriage and muscling, primarily) to sustain such efforts, such as in a 6+ minute test.
I went to Dr. Ritter’s site and couldn’t understand what all the fuss is about.
Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
Shameless signature plugplugplug.
A highly trained eye,combined with obvious abuse of horses & riders (“You stupid American. Oh, what can I expect?!” he said to one rider while throwing his hands up in the air, looking at the ceiling and rolling his eyes), can see very clearly and not much time is needed. Things liek ethics, and character (or lack of) show up in a short amount of time as expressed by extreme behaviors.
The first horse I saw I knew from a boarding situation. The horse went in w/ a visible hitch of some sort. This clinician got on and rode the horse until it was lathered, head tossing and puffing profusely, as he was – and I QUOTE HIM HERE: “Making the stubborn horse SUBMIT to the RIGHT LEG.” Well, the horse was ridden around the ring for 40 minutes solid – getting whipped and spurred all the while – it was a really ugly scene, the horse snorting every breath, in extreme PAIN. The horse never got ONE break during that 40 minutes. TR wasn’t gonna give up until he MADE the horse “submit.” There was no kindness, empathy, nor understanding towards the horse.
As far as the horse being “stubborn,” that side was the horse’s LAME side. The horse left the ring totally defeated – head hanging, tongue lolling out, totally steaming and lathered… and since then the horse has developed some sort of NERVOUS tick it never had before. When the clinician dismounted, he hande the reins to the rider & lauded her for “taking on such a stubborn horse with such a bad attitude.” He told her she had “MUCH COURAGE to tackle such a project.” This is a horse who stands in cross ties 100% dead quiet – literally for HOURS – whilst the rider a “chatty Cathy” type is out and about. He self loads on a trailer. He gives 9 y.o.'s rides. He is ridden constantly in an ill fitting saddle and NEVER complains with even so much of a swish of his tail. Stubborn horse with a bad attitude? Hardly. He is one of the kindest and most giving horses I have even seen.
TRUE classical dressage, if CORRECTLY executed, runs on the premise that a horse who DOES NOT respond either: 1) Fails to understand the command; or 2) IS IN PAIN. Unfortunately, instead of taking 5 minutes to evaluate the limping stiff horse’s condition, this clinician IMHO just TOTALLY LOST HIS TEMPER at this poor horse. All auditors thinned quickly. We just got tired of hearing him yell at riders, as well as fail to improve horses THROUGHNESS. IMHO all 3 horses were coached to be ridden consistently in false frames. There was a lacking of systematic approach and/ or direction, even within a lesson. All 3 sessions were the typical “Heads up, heels down, keep his nose in, try a trot at K, keep a straight line from bit to elbow” type of lesson that my non-horsey husband could easily teach.
Yes, I agree that it is important not to make any RASH judgements, unless what one sees something so extreme that there is no denying it. It simply isn’t possible to defend these extremes. Please don’t kill the messenger, here! :-). I, too, wish I hadn’t seen what I did! I was upset for days afterwards, and after 15 years in horses, from QH’s to upper level eventing, I thought I had seen it all…
[This message was edited by mona on Jan. 28, 2001 at 01:30 PM.]
There is a clinic in the spring with Thomas Ritter. Anyone have any feedback? He sounds very classical.
If anyone else is interested,
contact dianabeuchert@erols.com for more info
[Note: This message has been edited by Melinda]
sorry, i don’t care for this clinician, though i know most people like him.
Maybe we just need some kind of celebration during this dark and dreary time of the year, to take our minds off of how miserable it is outside.
Velvet, I certainly agree with you about the commercialization of Christmas. This year, it kind of upset me that even the Salvation Army was out with their kettles shortly after Halloween. That is rushing it way too much.
I believe, also, that I read that many of the Christian holidays are set around pagan celebrations in the same time period. The assimilation of certain of the pagan traditions into the Christian religion supposedly made it more palatable for people who had converted. I think that there was a major festival called “Saturnalia” (don’t count on that spelling) which took place at this period. Wassail, yule logs, etc., all were taken from that festival.
Perhaps this icon is more like it.
Could of been an interesting discussion about a clinician…could of been even more interesting to find out why someone did not like that clinician. If this forum is about sharing information, I think honest feed back should be most welcome even if it’s negative.
If one wants to promote the idea of not saying anything if you haven’t got something good to say…then do just that. Not hint that there’s something wrong - and something so bad that it can’t be posted! (I realize one may not have liked the way he wore his hat, but there’s an implication that there’s more)
Someone may not like a clinician’s style, humor, training techniques etc. etc. And I think all of this can be said in a non-flaming, non-libelous way.
…and to let another bb’s rules dictate what’s said, or not said, on this board is ridiculous.
P.S. I think the moderators should be allowed to do their job. Even with only 6 posts, Melinda seems to have the tact necessary to enforce the rules without being rude.
I’m still waiting to find out more about Thomas Ritter. 
Is it worth traveling south from Connecticut to audit? Why don’t you like him, slc? You can be diplomatic about it.
I won’t argue religion. I figure the goddess wouldn’t have made so many paths if she didn’t want everyone to find their way. I bow to the divine within all of you.
Boogey on dudes
i think that’s the german for what you describe.
again all of this is general and has nothing personally to do with mr. ritter.
sure. there are so many new people in our sport who aren’t familiar with these definitions and ideas.
i heard the other day that dressage is the fastest growing discipline, and that most people are competing at intro and training level. so we have many, many people new to it.
one learns a great deal by ‘‘going through’’ and paying one’s dues, as the lady above has. making mistakes, working with bad people, figuring out who the good people are, learning their system, training your own horse, riding horses trained by excellent trainers, all these experiences, as well as reading, studying, watching and asking a LOT of stupid questions, make the points above easy to feel, hear and see after time.
but what about most folks, who haven’t done all of the above for 15 years? yes, these points can be brought out over and over.
and, sadly, i’ve found there are a GREAT many of us older ladies and gentlemen who have been in dressage for many, many years, and don’t know things HALF as well as we think we do, and DON’T have a good eye for correctness, in our own riding or in trainers we choose.
i feel just about anyone can stand to hear these things again, to tell the truth.
do we need to tell judges? no, most of them are very experienced and well educated. they must attend forums and do a great deal of work to keep their certification.
do we need to be selective about choosing trainers? yes. there are so many new people in dressage that poorly trained trainers without good foundations get many, many eager students. and it’s very, very hard for those folks to look at someone and understand if it is correct or not.
many, many riders have a german bereiter. it is a brief program and many have gone. howeever, this doesn’t make someone a trainer able to train horses to the top standards in grand prix competition - this certification is only a very brief start at dressage, and is not enough time for a person to be able to train a variety of horses and riders with different problems and backgrounds to do correct dressage to the top standards.
the bereiter is a great beginning, but it IS a beginning. you’ll find that most of the folks with this certification have gone on to work with several excellent trainers, and have worked for them for a period of time, not just on and off, learning a cohesive system of training horses. this is indispensable. a person needs to see his OWN horses AND his trainers horses move up the levels. he needs to see how conformation and temperament influence what training is done and how it comes out at the end - this doesn’t happen in a year or two, but through time, and seeing these horses progress.
there ARE indeed a few people who have just scraped their way up with occasional clinics, and this does work well for SOME folks. this is a very, very hard way to go, and MOST folks don’t develop a systematic way of training horses in this environment - they get a ‘‘bag of tricks’’ that don’t really fit together and don’t work for all horses or riders.
often folks when they start learn very quickly how to make a horse do TRICKS - flying changes and a flashy looking extended trot that impress the novices, who wonder how they’ll ever be able to do such things and are just incredibly overawed when they see a horse piaffe, passage and do flying lead changes. but is the horse relaxed, sound, calm, are his basics correct - a quiet, steady contact with the bit, straight, flexible in the hips, and rounded through the back and neck. is the trainer rough or patient and easy going? don’t let ANYONE ever tell you an upper level horse needs to be treated brutally. corrected firmly, yes, made to pay attention, yes, but riding should NOT be a constant battle ground every single day. if it IS, the trainer has a personality defect and you should NOT give him or her money or support his or her behavior.
i’ll tell you right now, you can count on the fingers of one hand the people in america who can school a green horse to grand prix and wind up with a sound, happy correct horse, OR transmit that knowledge to their students. that kind of ability doesn’t just happen in a year or two or three.
there are MANY bad trainers out there in our relatively new, fast growth sport - that’s how growth works - then you can have trouble with quality control, as all of you in businesses know. there are MANY who are not good.
and i get email from many, many students who ask me if what they are being taught is right. i have to send nearly all of these back unanswered unless the person appears to be getting endangered - but it breaks my heart. yes, there are MANY bad trainers out there.
there are quite a few people who are working very hard to improve their riding and training skills, and who can give very, very excellent instruction at the lower levels. knowledge of the basics and an ability to communicate are paramount.
these folks are the HARDEST to identify and tell apart from the ‘‘others’’, and they’re the folks you’re MOST likely to be evaluating as a prospective trainer for yourself - the ones with no certification or ‘‘big names’’ in their resume, but yet there are many folks like this who have a great deal of value to teach to the majority of students.
as long as you recognize their limitations, and move on to a more advanced trainer when necessary (and remember, it might NEVER be necessary, as most folks have no interest in going up the ‘‘dressage ladder’’) these folks are of incredible value and teach a great many people to be more sympathetic and in tune with their horse.
as for classical vs. competition, there is no difference and can never be any difference in legitimate riding. there is only good riding/training and bad riding/training.
There are well-known clinicians and there are unknown clinicians and there is usually a reason why. I’ve always kinda wondered how the unknowns get asked to give clinics in the first place. A couple of flashy, eye-catching mounts, perhaps?
Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
Shameless signature plugplugplug.
He is very classical. I signed up for the clinic today. Diana said it was full already. Dr. Ritter also hosts a Classical Dressage Mailing List and has a website. http://www.classicaldressage.com
slc, can you say what you didn’t like? You know I’m not asking you to trainer-bash; I’d just like your perspective.
Louise,
Your right, I’ve heard that too, along with Christmas trees having been part of the worship of nature.
I don’t think it’s only Christians that are probably sick of this time of year. I know that a friend who celebrates Kwanza (sp?) is also annoyed and so is a Jewish friend of mine who celebrates Hannuka. Kind of sad that it’s being ruined and the reasons are ALL forgotten. I like how some European country’s celebrate. Christmas is a nice quiet holiday, but New Years is when they really get into the major celebration. Seems we’re on a trend that is reversing that and maybe we should go back to it. Then we can beat the retailers at their own game and buy when everything is one clearance after Christmas! 
(Now that would make me happy.)
as to shifting topics within a thread - been there done that, just a shame a potentially interesting horse-related thread didn’t pan out.
I don’t normally come on the Dressage threads. I have a Dressage friend who is going to audit some of his classes to see if she will put her horse in training with him.
I can let you know what she thought when I talk to her soon.
I don’t understand why all the roadblocks for such a simple question.
You surely would have gotten more resonable responses over on the “Wild” H/J board if you had asked about someone who was a H/J trainer.
Don’t you discuss clinics on the Dressage board? 
SLC,
Are you saying that you think he’s wonderful, and yet someone who looks like him is doing the teaching?
Just wondering. I thought a doppelganger was a double of someone. Like having an unrelated twin running around in the world.
Did I miss something?
