Has anyone ridden with Thomas Ritter??

You know slc, my horse feels the same way. He especially hates the way the stores have the aisles so jam packed with “stuff” that he can’t squeeze himself through (one of the problems of being an "old-style warmblood maybe).

gwynne - I am very sorry if my use of the word “pagan” offended you. Please forgive me, I honestly didn’t realize that it had a connotation that could bother some people.

However, thought we are a dressage forum, those of us who post here are many faceted people, and occasionally are going to discuss issues that relate only peripherally to the horse world. As long as we do it nicely,and not all the time, I don’t really see a problem.

[This message has been edited by LOUISE (edited 12-07-2000).]

Get over it, horsechick. Your question was already answered and I bet the clinic is even over by now! We’ve moved on…so what? Conversations have a tendancy to take on a life of their own and go in new and interesting directions. Why can’t you deal with it? Your posting out here yelling at us is just as bad. Do all of your conversations stay on subject once the topic has been exhausted? I think this one was doomed from the beginning since it was more advertising than a question…

Gwynne and Rescuemom: I’m with you… this BB doesn’t get hardly any action, and I liked your topic. When and where is the clinic? I might also come… to anyone else: I would LOVE to know what you have to say about T. Ritter (good or bad). Don’t let a couple of sour grapes spoil the fun… as far as BB “rules,” I’m in no position to make them, but let me make a suggestion… If you don’t like the topic, don’t answer! Tell us your likes AND dislikes, feel free to express your opinion, But keep the petty put-downs to yourself… Then we’ll have an active BB like the H/J people who have 2000 and some messages. Just my opinion.

You are like, WAY so politically correct! You make a good description. And, you are right on about diagonal legs, etc. Many horses in stallion promotional photos have the extravagant legs up high in front, and the rear is lagging by barely coming off the ground. That is WRONG because it shows front legs moving at a much faster pace than hind legs. Not good and stressful on the horse’s body, to boot. Good observation.

and it disturbs me greatly that, in the previous THREE PAGES of posts, I have been unable to discern one balanced, objective post, pro or con.

Aly

Well, I wasn’t going to bother to get involved in this discussion until I read Mona’s description of a TR clinic. And I just have to wonder if she saw his evil twin or something. Very bizarre! I saw one of his clinics and it was nothing (!) like Mona described. My only complaint would be that he was very technical and spoke at a higher level then possibly the people he was teaching understood. Otherwise he was VERY professional and polite. Also, the horses I saw worked mostly at the walk and trot, lots of breaks, and lots of good direction for the riders.
Sheesh, I certainly wouldn’t go see the man that Mona described, but I just find it hard to believe that that was TR.
Oh, and to the poster who wondered how “unknowns” get asked to do clinics in the first place, I think that unknown is a relative word. To many Erik Herbermann is an “unknown” (and I think he prefers it that way), but to those that know him…wow! On the other hand, I been to some “known” name clinicians and have cringed and walked away.

Chill out Velvet!

I want to audit this clinic. I’m not advertising as I am in no way connected to this clinic(I too read Erin’s post about advertising). Just wanted some feedback from those who rode with Thomas Ritter.

It’s pricey to audit & will be a 4 hour drive to get there. It would be a waste of time & money if he wasn’t worth it.

rescuemom,
sorry you were slapped on the wrist for my so-called “blatant advertising”! So you will be riding in the clinic? I might get to see you ride. It’s great to have more classical trainers available!

Rescuemom–how in the world did you come to the conclusion that I was yelling at you? Guess you read something other than what I had posted.

It was horse chick that I was telling off, and as you can see by the moderators comments, they felt the same way.

Horse Chick, if you’d only posted your question and not the link, I wouldn’t have gotten my undies in such a tight wad. I’m just tired of everyone come right up to the edge and pushing one toe over when it comes to breaking rules. It always seems to be that people think that axiom about it being easier to “beg for forgiveness is easier than asking for permission” is the way to live in this sad, tired world. So, I jump up and scream “foul” when I see it.

[This message has been edited by Velvet (edited 12-05-2000).]

Notice I used the word “string” and not “topic”–two distinctly different things after a large group of postings. (Such as this one.)

Whatever anyone does or does not celebrate is just fine. My horse would just like to know why he and all his bretheren are only included in the gifts, but never invited into the house to join in the “holiday cheer.” Also, he is usually fearful of the fact that I might not have enough money to buy him everything on his wish list (his own stall that is at least the size of a small arena, the unlimited supply of hay and grain, being groomed when HE asks and the ability to roam wherever he chooses).

Wow, Gwynne, and I thought I was being a bit inflammatory! Gee, kettle, this is the pot…you’re black…

Egads! Veiled insults, and not so veiled insults…and all because a few comments were picked up and restrung so they moved from the original post. Sheesh!

well, at least i can tell someone actually read that huge long thing, LOL!

now on the difference in movement between front and hind legs, just because you see a foreleg making more than the hind leg or not parallel the hind cannon isn’t in and of itself a problem. it depends on exactly what is going on. again, look at the hind leg first to see if its motion is correct. then look at the front leg.

if the action of the hind leg is faulty, it is faulty. you don’t need to compare to the front leg first - look at the back first.

usually what happens is you see a fancy lifted motion of the foreleg, and a lagging, dragging hind leg that is nowhere near it.

if you see a correct hindleg moving up with a big ‘‘V’’ between it and the other hind leg and that V doesn’t close at the hocks but runs all the way up to the horse’s body, you have a correct working hind leg - it also has to be straight, and not spread apart. this is harder to tell from a side photo but you can learn to see this - look at the shadow beneath the horse that might show hind feet widely separated, and look for a ‘‘c0cked’’ foot or angled cannon on the hind leg that shows the hind leg is twisting rather than reaching forward.

now usually when you see the hind cannon is angled, the hoof will look ‘‘snatched’’ or sharply bent - it shouldn’t, it should hang down loosely when it is in the air. usually if you see the hind leg is c0cked, angled or snatched, you can look right up and see that the back is dropped as well, and the neck is not through.

you’ll see what looks like the hind legs swinging and rocking at the hip (croup) as the horse struggles with his balance.

balance of this horse is much like you carrying a box of ferrets on your shoulders. you can start to fall over, just catch yourself, lean way back to compensate, just catch yourself, fall forward, manage to rescue yourself, and somehow stay on your feet. but what is wanted in the dressage horse is not this ‘‘saving himself’’ sort of struggle, but a smooth, overall balanced action that doesn’t lose and regain balance, but keeps it all the time.

if a horse is a little ‘‘on idle’’ behind in a picture, i don’t mind much if it is basically correct. first, photographers often take the worst moments of the strides, and there is a time before the hind leg comes through that can give a bad impression.

i just don’t want to see it at every stride all the time. if i DO see it, i might conclude the rider is lazy, or the horse is (i might see a lazy looking hind end on a stallion and conclude his offspring will be JUST PERFECT for an old amateur like myself, to tell the truth), or it is not correctly trained.

now looking at the foreleg and shoulder. this is where the most people make the most mistakes.

‘‘look at him flip his toes’’, people will croon, watching a horse trot medium or extended, but actually this is incorrect.

this is what a horse does that is in tension in the shoulders and cannot move his shoulders.

no, most emphatically not, you do not want to see the horseshoe when you stand in front of the horse, LOL.

i am sorry to say this trait most people love is incorrect. that is all there is to it.

the foreleg shouldn’t be rigid and stiff. the foot shouldn’t flip up.

there should be a loose, relaxed reaching look to the foreleg and shoulder. there will still be a tiny bend in the knee, just a degree, no more, showing the leg is relaxedly reaching.

the foot should not flip up, but point to where it will land. and it should land where it points.

if the foot is thrown forward and withdrawn backwards to land at a point BEHIND where it tried to point to, the action is not correct. there is tension and perhaps an innate lack of scope in the horse as well, but surely there is tension and loss of balance and correctness.

a really good medium or extended trot is NOT AT ALL flashy or extravagant looking, the tempo is the same as the other trot (collected, medium) and there is no flying feet. it should look completely unremarkable.

only that when you see how far each stride takes the horse, you look and say, ‘‘oh my GOD’’.

you see the borsalino horse that got a 10 on extended trot at essen.

you look at the video.

take a card and cover the bottom of the picture. look at the horse and rider without the legs of the horse showing.

it looks so normal trotting.

then look only at the legs. and look how far the horse is going over the ground.

that is a correct movement. that is a 10.

[This message was edited by slc on Jan. 24, 2001 at 11:16 AM.]

I rode with Thomas Ritter - several times a week for more than a year. He is a decent teacher. I have never seen him abuse either a horse or a rider. His basis is very classical - he is a purist and he takes no shortcuts. Things are done first at a walk - then at a trot - and then at a canter. The process is slow and I can’t see how anyone could jump to any kind of conclusion by watching a clinic for 2.5 rides.

He is not a competative rider and his preferred horse is a baroque horse. If you want to show - he can hlep you with the basics - but has little interest in how to move up the levels or increase scores. He rides his horses with very little rein contact and his students that stay with him learn to ride off the seat and the leg.

My criticisms would be that he is very expensive - for a rider that has no show exerience to speak of or affiliation with an orgaization like the SRS. His emphasis on collected work is so great that the extended paces can suffer. His trot work is better than his canter work.

At last some real info! Maybe Mona saw his Dopelganger;-)

I think I agree with DebS, I might go an hour to audit, but I probably wouldn’t go 7 hrs.

But thanks to those of you who know Ritter or have seen him and posted.

Boogey on dudes

horse chick, yes I’ll be riding on Sunday. I hope to be able to audit a bit on Saturday as well but don’t know how the timing will work out. The clinic is only 20 miles from me. Feel free to drop me an e-mail.

rescuemom, i don’t think i’ll respond to you by private email. you sound so angry and nothing has even been said. i think you’re jumping to conclusions and trying to pick a fight. i’ll bow out.

one of the big reasons pre-christian customs are found in christian traditions is that ALL groups represent influences and bits and pieces from the culture they’re surrounded by; this is natural.

another reason is that christianity was actually a very, very hard sell out in the countryside in many areas of the world, even 2-300 yrs. after christ’s death. people were quite content with what they believed and saw little reason to change.

what happened was many of the well-educated affluent folks who found christianity so appealed to their intellectual bent, found it helped to encourage rural folks and more disenfranchised and less educated peoples to adopt christianity if they were shown a great deal of tolerance and allowed to continue with some of their former traditions, as long as these were things that didn’t represent a conflict with christian ideals they were tolerated for quite some time; frankly i’d say this is the case with most people, educated or not; they’re more comfortable with some of the familiar items remaining, such as the christmas tree and older celebrations and holidays. this made it possible for a great many more people to embrace christianity and become comfortable with it.

one thing i’ve found in my rather embarrassingly long and extremely varied life is that people in america have an extremely wide variety of religious beliefs. our country was founded on the basis of supplying religious freedom for a specific group of christians, but has come to stand over the years for a much broader definition of religious freedom.

now a huge variety of different christian beliefs exist here, as well as representatives of most of the world’s major and minor religions.

paganism, as it is called, is usually a broad, ill defined term. correctly speaking it refers to the religions common in the western world (meaning europe, usually) at the time of christian development and spread. the ikons of those religions came to have very negative connotations and represent evil and witchcraft, but originally this was nothing more than a different religion.

christians often seem to feel any other religion must be evil.

however, it seems to me after studying a great deal of religious history that nearly all religions of the world, oddly enough, change and evolve together. as people become more connected and more accessible to each other by travel and technology, it seems as if the world’s religions might all merge.

[This message has been edited by slc (edited 12-08-2000).]

Guess you and I read these lines a bit differently:

“Am disappointed with the juvenile manipulative non-effective argumentation some posters have displayed in their replies to this discussion. Gives substance to the theory that those who do not know the answer/have any useful info to share will be quick to find fault and attack on the most base level.”

Seems like an attack on some of the people involved in the conversation out here…and a bit high handed. Sitting on a soap box and stating your opinion is fine, but casting aspersions on others from high atop your self proclaimed throne of “wisdom” is a bit insulting, nay, inflammatory, to say the least.

Not wanting to pick a fight, but just pointing out how others read your intent.

If anyone has any personal experience riding with,or has had their horse in training at Dr. T. Ritter’s farm my personal e-mail address is as follows. I would appreciate hearing firsthand accounts (be they positive or negative) as I am considering attending a clinic also.
barngoddess_68@hotmail.com

Thank you and a very merry yule!
gwynne

i realize that above might make some one think that they must see the same reach foreward in the hind legs when the horse is doing collected movements.

now keeping in mind the lower level horse will show much less difference between his medium, collected and extended work, and may do much of his training in WORKING gaits, which fufill the requirements ONLY of the working gaits, and not of any distinct medium, collected or extended work, let us say what different kinds of action there is to be seen.

first to dispell one of the commonest misconceptions. the amount of tracking up defined for collected, medium and extended gaits, meaning how far forward the hind feet reach, and how far they step toward, on or over the tracks made by the front feet, this is different for collected, medium and extended movements.

in collected it is the least, sometimes not even steppin ON the prints made by the front feet. for each type of movement, medium to extended, more tracking up is wanted. a very talented horse can even step on his own foreprints in collected walk, and that is the ideal, but many horses are not talented enough to do that even after a long time of very correct training.

what is exactly is a collected gait? think carefully. collected is NOT a general thing, ‘‘moving well’’, it is a specific thing. how much tracking up is defined, and the stride is to change. sometimes at lower level all you will see is a very, very slight change in the stride of the horse, but later, yes, you hope the horse is more mobile, lighter in front and noticeably different than in the other forms of the gaits.

but the main thing to keep in mind is this. don’t look for so much reaching forward of the hind leg in the collected gaits.

it is walking a very fine line, and very hard to tell if the hind leg is just dragging, or taking that new sort of action that is a part of real collected movements. look for more bending of the hind leg joints and a higher, just slightly now, higher path taken by the hind foot.

for if you do not have a difference in the ‘‘shape’’ or arc made by each stride, you do not have collection.

don’t look for a huge difference, especially not in a lower level, more green horse (2-4th level and even beyond).

so there is thrusting forward engagement and there is carrying engagement, if you want to call it that. in collection he is taking the weight on his back end, but again, especially in the lower level horse and even in many horses high up the levels, extreme sitting or creeeping forward of the hind legs is wrong as well. it is too much strain on the animal and it does become an evasion for a horse, especially in piaffe. if he has his balance his forelegs should not tip back and his hind legs creep forward.