Have you ever jumped a higher level jump while on course (xc)?

[Xanthoria]

One of the new eventing rule changes going into effect Dec 1, 2024 is below. The part that strikes me is as follows:

“In eventing, it has been a normal practice that if an athlete jumps an obstacle of another level’s track, that it is not penalized provided they complete the obstacles of the level in which they are competing in the correct sequence. At times, this is used as a training opportunity. With the way the current language is stated, athletes would incur penalties for this practice, and the approved language changes to this rule would permit athletes to practice this without penalty.”

Have you ever done this? Seems like it’d take up valuable time but maybe I’m missing something?

Full change text below:

EV-122.1 has received updates for fault clarification (a), an updated definition of a runout (b), and added definition and penalties for a missed marker ©.

A) In eventing, it has been a normal practice that if an athlete jumps an obstacle of another level’s track, that it is not penalized provided they complete the obstacles of the level in which they are competing in the correct sequence. At times, this is used as a training opportunity. With the way the current language is stated, athletes would incur penalties for this practice, and the approved language changes to this rule would permit athletes to practice this without penalty.

B) In order to eliminate confusion at the national level for either retaking a jump or continuing, the FEI definition of a missed flag and runout were adopted.

The runout wording is as follows:

“A Horse is considered to have run-out if, having been presented at an Obstacle on the course, it avoids it in a way that the head, neck, and point of either shoulder fail to pass between the Obstacle markers or the hindquarters do not jump the height of the solid part of the Obstacle. Continuing on course without representing will incur Elimination.”

The missed markers wording is as follows:

“To clear an Obstacle, the Horse’s head, neck, and shoulder must pass between the Obstacle markers. If the marker is dislodged, the hindquarters must jump the height of the solid part of the Obstacle. If the Obstacle is not navigated as described a 15 point penalty must be assessed.”

[Highflyer1]

Yes, although mostly at starter trials that aren’t timed or when I thought it was likely to preventa refusal. I have done things like jump a BN ditch before circling around to the Novice ditch, or trotting through water flagged for a different level before presenting to the water on my course. I’ve also very occasionally jumped something that was one level up just for the schooling opportunity, but it isn’t something I do regularly (for example if only the entrance to the water is flagged for BN, I might choose to jump my BN horse out up the Novice bank.)

[Janet]

@Xanthoria

The part that strikes me is as follows:

Source please?

I know about the changed wording for missed flag and runout but I do not see what that has to do with “schooling” a fence not on your course.

I would also like to see what “current language is stated, athletes would incur penalties for this practice” (schooling another fence) refers to.

[Dr_Doolittle]

Yes, I was confused by this too!

[Xanthoria]

@Janet

Source please?

It was in an email USEA sent yesterday that linked to this page: https://useventing.com/news-media/news/new-eventing-rule-changes-going-into-effect-december-1-2024

[Janet]

Thanks.
It is still a non sequitor, but now I know who to ask about it.

To answer your original question, yes I have jumped a fence not on my course several times. Not just to “school”, but also to get a better appoach to the next jump that WAS on my course.

ETA that, even though I was sure it was legal, I checked with the TD first.

[enjoytheride]

Doesn’t it have to be a fence at or below your current level? Like if you’re going BN you can jump a Starter fence (as long as you also jump your BN fence) but you can’t jump a Prelim fence. Or am I making that up?

[alyssaequestrian]

Correct, you are permitted to jump a fence below your level, under certain parameters (it does not impede the approach to your fence, it was safe, etc) but you can be issued a Dangerous Riding penalty for jumping a jump above your level or a jump backwards. Jumping a training jump instead of a novice jump if they are next to each other will not necessarily get your eliminated (as long as you circle back before the next jump) or a DR, but they are able to issue them for it.

[Janet]

@enjoytheride

Doesn’t it have to be a fence at or below your current level? Like if you’re going BN you can jump a Starter fence (as long as you also jump your BN fence) but you can’t jump a Prelim fence. Or am I making that up?

The rules or not clear about that. What is clear, is that you will be penalized if you do something that constitutes “Dangerous Riding”.

Usually, jumping a jump at lower level isn’t dangerous, but it might be dangerous if, for instance, spectators, or the jump judge, are on, or close to, the jump. Jumping a jump one level up, or jumping a jump (not on your course) backwards, might or might not be considered dangerous, depending on the jump. If you are planning to do that, talk to the TD (or PoGJ) first.

I do know of two cases (one at the AECs) where a BN rider jumped an Intermediate jump backwards (I think it was a jump into/out of water), and WERE charged with Dangerous Riding.

[FLeventer]

I made a mistake once on a novice course at VHT. Jumped a house that was on the novice Area 2 championship course but not on the regular novice course. It was at the same level so not really bigger but also not on my course. No issue.

I’ve jumped a few smaller jumps but never one above the level. I’m afraid of getting eliminated and haven’t really seen the need.

[anonevent]

That sounds useful for riders who are introducing their blazingly fast horses to lower levels and need to kill some time.

[Xanthoria]

If time wasn’t an issue I could see jumping a few jumps at the next higher level as preparation for a move up. It would be pretty helpful to do that in a competition setting vs schooling.

[Lusoluv]

Do you have to yell out some sort of warning to the jump judge, like “not presenting”, and then circle back to your level’s jump after jumping the smaller one?

[Xanthoria]

@Lusoluv

Do you have to yell out some sort of warning to the jump judge, like “not presenting”

This reminds me of a competitor I saw recently, yelling “not presenting” over and over as her horse stopped in the water and tried to roll, eventually getting so close to the exit jump that she had to circle and indeed got a 20. It was pretty funny, but I did feel quite sorry for her.

[Highflyer1]

I generally do. If I walk the course day of and it looks like the jump judge will be there for my division I mention it to them then. If I have any doubts about my plan being misinterpreted I might talk to the TD too.

[Janet]

@Lusoluv

Do you have to yell out some sort of warning to the jump judge, like “not presenting”, and then circle back to your level’s jump after jumping the smaller one?

You certainly don’t have to. If the jump judge decides that you HAVE presented, saying “not presenting” doesn’t save you. But saying somehing like “I am schooling the X jump” couldn’t hurt.

[Willesdon]

As an experienced Fence Judge it is usually easy to see if the pair have presented about four strides before the fence. A rider calling “not presented!” as the horse applies it’s brakes doesn’t stop the judge calling “first refusal!”. Napping some distance away can be harder to judge. We’ve had a Professional call “Not presented” after a refusal at the B element of a combination… We laughed.

[Janet]

OK, I have an answer.
I emailed the author of the USEA press release, who suggested I forward my questions to the Managing Director of Eventing at USEF.

There is additional text in the rule change for EV122.1 (which was not included in the USEA press release) that DOES address “the practice of schooling”.

The change is in they added the phrase “for the relevant level in progress.”

The changed text about runouts is in EV122.2 (not 122.1) and I think the text about missing a flag goes there too,

[Xanthoria]

Aha that’s helpful thank you Janet!

[Blugal]

I had a no-good, very bad day once.

On my first horse, I accidentally jumped the larger jump beside my jump, realized it as we took off, circled and jumped the correct jump.

On the second horse, I was doing a lower level and there was a really spooky canoe jump. She enormously over-jumped it, and we landed in a heap pointing 90 degrees the wrong way. As I gathered myself and my reins, we were facing the Training-level ditch, and I instinctively just kicked her over. I’d had it drummed into me never to stop a horse in front of a fence if they were already going.

By the time I was ready to go on my third mount, someone had pulled me aside and said, “the TD wants to speak with you at the end of your round.”

Well, this was my re-sale project pony, who was green but brave. There was a long downhill section about 3/4 of the way through the course, and I didn’t want my video to show me tugging and pulling, so I just let him cruise… At the 2nd to last fence, I glanced at my watch and saw I was almost a minute early. I knew I could circle at this point to kill some time, but figured the TD was already waiting for me - better to accept my speed faults.

The TD said she’d considered giving me a yellow card for “obviously schooling my horses” and potentially being dangerous (jumping the ditch which nobody would have expected) - however, she decided not to. I did tell her this was entirely accidental… and later on laughed because there was no such thing as a yellow card at those low levels anyway.

That was the first and last time I ever competed three horses in one show. To be fair, I was a WS and grooming for another 3 at the same time, overwhelmed and under-slept.