Have you ever jumped a higher level jump while on course (xc)?

[EventerAJ]

I’ve jumped FEI fences that were close to the HT course. One instance was back in 2006? at Poplar Place; I was running prelim on my intermediate mare who was always a bit suspicious of water. The CIC* had an element at the first water that was directly in line with my prelim fence; you were supposed to curve around it, but it was also sensible to jump the two of them together. (I think both of them may have been flagged A,B for the CIC course). I planned to do the extra CIC fence, and knew it was within the rules, but I approached the TD before xc just to make him aware of my plan. It was Roger Haller. I introduced myself, politely explained that I intended to jump an extra fence, and asked him if that was ok. He was really snarky, and said I should go read my rulebook if I didn’t know if it was legal. (I knew it was, I was just trying to be respectful!)

You are allowed to jump anything flagged, in the proper direction, provided you can do it safely. I will certainly “go larking” (hunting term!) if it makes sense for whatever horse I’m on. It’s pretty rare with modern course design of portables and new courses every weekend, but back in the day when fixtures were more permanent, and schooling days may not have been available, you might try something on course in preparation for a move up.

[Janet]

@Blugal

and later on laughed because there was no such thing as a yellow card at those low levels anyway.

I do not know how long ago this was, but nowadays Yellow Cards can be issued at any recognized level. I have seen Yellow Cards at Beginner Novice.

[HiJumpGrrl]

So Janet, this means if you are running BN, say, and schooling an obstacle for another level (ie: jumping the novice jump before the flagged BN water crossing) and have a stop at the N jump, you will continue to NOT have penalties assessed, because BN is the relevant level in progress. Correct?

[Janet]

Correct, as long as there is nothing dangerous about the way you jumped the Novice jump (e.g., spectators sitting on it).

[Blugal]

Quite a long time, and it was in Canada.

[aregard]

I’ve known people to have crossed water hazards east/west before approaching them as required for their test (say, north/south). Not between any flags, but to “get their feet wet”. If you have a horse that’s going to one day to Intermediate speeds, and you’re schooling at training level, you can make up the time elsewhere. I don’t recall seeing anybody school a higher fence than their own, while on course, but if they’re talking about writing a rule about it…

When I rode, the courses would have “schooling days” where you could ride virtually anything on the course for a fee (with your trainer in attendance), so doing a fence here or there for “schooling” doesn’t seem like the real reason?

[Highflyer1]

Idk, it is the real reason for me. For example, Fair Hill costs $60 for schooling, and only opens for schooling a handful of times, most of which are not weekends. My trainer charges $50 for schooling. I have to take half a day off work and I don’t get paid if I’m not there. It’s a 30 minute drive and gas isn’t cheap. It might easily cost me $150-$200 to hop over the one funny looking fence I have doubts about.

[Xanthoria]

Same here - an hour total drive and $15 of gas, $65 horse park fee, $90 lesson fee around here: $170 and 3-4 hours of time, all said and done? I definitely like the idea of schooling water on course as @aregard says!

[Janet]

@EventerAJ

You are allowed to jump anything flagged, in the proper direction, provided you can do it safely.

It doesn’t have to be flagged.

To expand on what I mentioned above, it was a (permanent) Training level obstacle, set into the fence line, which HAD been on the previous several Training courses. But it was not in that year’s course, and it wasn’t flagged. (And I checked to see that it was still in good condition.) Jumping that obstacle gave a much better line to the next fence (a bank) than goin through the open gate and then along the fence line, and making a sharp turn to the bank.

I did check in advance with the TD (who happened to be Roger Haller). I know Roger could be a bit difficut to deal with, as you mentioned, but in this case he told me it was OK as long as there weren’t any spectators in the way. He also suggested I go and tell the jump judge about my plans before I rode, but I did not do that.

[beowulf]

I think it is risky to jump a higher level as what is “dangerous” is considered subjective. There is also a lot of misunderstanding surrounding this rule, including the expectation the fences must be flagged.

I have jumped lower level fences to present a better opportunity (IE in water) but never higher. I wouldn’t risk it - not because it could be potentially dangerous, but because I pay way too much damn money to be eliminated over a schooling opportunity.

Once or twice I have been tempted to jump a bogey fence in the middle of the course because a well designed course practically spoon feeds confidence to the pair riding it, and it is really hard to imitate that feeling at home.

I got a crash course in how even multiple officials can misinterpret the rules a few years back. I had a situation where a rider was eliminated on grounds of Dangerous Riding, because she allegedly jumped a Training level fence on a BN course. The JJ wasn’t in a good position to see which fence was actually being jumped as they were responsible for multiple fences, which was unfortunate for all parties including the JJ. The rider said they jumped the BN side of the complex. The JJ insisted they jumped the Training side. There was a lot of back and forth about this, dragging out the rulebook, arguing with the GJ, involving the TD, etc. The TD and GJ was of the opinion that irrespective of them going over it safely, it was dangerous to jump a fence higher than the level competing. I was firmly in the rider’s camp, knowing that pair and knowing that horse could barely jump over a paper bag - he wasn’t going to be making it over a Training level fence. In the end they removed the DR penalty and the elimination, but it wasn’t an enjoyable experience by any stretch of the word and we were made to feel like Public Enemy #1 over it.

[Janet]

@beowulf

what is “dangerous” is considered subjective.

I agree. That is why it is always a good idea to ask the TD ahead of time if you are PLANNING to jump an extra obstacle.

For instance
SOME TDs think jumping an unflagged extra obstacle is automatically “dangerous”, because it hasn’t been “checked” by the TD. Others don’t.
SOME TDs think jumping a higher level extra obstacle is automatically “dangerous”. Others don’t.
SOME TDs think jumping a flagged extra obstacle backwards is automatically “dangerous”. Others don’t.

If I am the TD, it depends on the specific fence, and how it is ridden whether it is “dangerous” or not. The example I give in my jump judge briefings is that “if a BN rider jumps an Intermediate fence backwards (and that has happened) it is probably dangerous.”

On the other hand, if the BN course goes DOWN a bank, and the Training course goes UP the same bank (effectively the same height, but going the other way), but the flagged areas don’t overlap, and a BN rider “schools” by jumping DOWN the Training bank (thus jumping a HIGHER level, and BACKWARDS wrt the flags) before jumping down the BN bank, I probably wouldn’t consider it dangereous.

But OTHER TDs could legitimately have other ideas about what is “dangerous”.

AGAIN, if you are PLANNING to school an EXTRA obstacle CHECK WITH THE TD.

If it happens by mistake, you are at the mercy of what the officials think. (The TD isn’t the final answer, if you don’t agree with the TD, you can ask to take it to the PoGJ.)

[Janet]

@beowulf

The JJ wasn’t in a good position to see which fence was actually being jumped as they were responsible for multiple fences, which was unfortunate for all parties including the JJ. The rider said they jumped the BN side of the complex.

This happens when there are not enough Jump Judges, and they have to cover multiple fences.
If you care about the sport of Eventing PLEASE volunteer as a jump judge.

In terms of the officials, if she jumped the Training fence, and didn’t jump the BN fence, she would be eliminated for being off course. I am not going to criticize other officials when I do not know all the details, but adding a DR to the “error of course” sounds petty to me.

[Arzny]

I have jumped a novice ditch then swung back around and jumped the BN ditch. Also have define the starter ditch then the BN. This horse was mad ditchy and getting his eye on one helped prevent the stop. He HAS stopped at the schooling ditch. I don’t event anymore, but I never had a problem doing this, though I did have a TD once ask if I got lost and confused. .

[beowulf]

@Janet

This happens when there are not enough Jump Judge, and they have to cover multiple fences.
If you care about the sport of Eventing PLEASE volunteer as a jump judge.

Yes, it was unfortunate the JJ was in that position, though I do think they could have moved up the hill a little bit. Unfortunately, that’s where the photographer was… Lol.

[Willesdon]

As the wise TD once said “We can always get competitors, it is the volunteers that are much harder to find”. @beowulf Move the photographer!

[aregard]

@Highflyer1

Idk, it is the real reason for me. For example, Fair Hill costs $60 for schooling, and only opens for schooling a handful of times, most of which are not weekends. My trainer charges $50 for schooling. I have to take half a day off work and I don’t get paid if I’m not there. It’s a 30 minute drive and gas isn’t cheap. It might easily cost me $150-$200 to hop over the one funny looking fence I have doubts about.

Sure, but you don’t spend that money for one fence. You spend that money to school whatever is out there that your trainer thinks you need to school. It’s a Look-Forward-To-It kind of day.

[FitToBeTied]

@Lusoluv

Do you have to yell out some sort of warning to the jump judge, like “not presenting”, and then circle back to your level’s jump after jumping the smaller one?

When I jump judge I ignore the people that yell “not presenting” and use my own judgement. I was jump judging on a prelim course. It was a bending line of maybe 10 strides from a table to a skinny. If you missed the line coming into the table you were going to miss the skinny. Several riders yelled “not presenting” and then slid by the skinny very closely. They all took a 20 and it was upheld by the TD.

As far as jumping a higher level. I saw it done on a novice course by a couple of pros. There was kind of a funky arrangement between two novice jumps that was caused by a training log in the middle. You had to loop around the log to get to the second novice jump. if you took the straight line and jumped it as a triple combination, the striding was perfect for it. During the schooling days I took my horse through it that way. Back then there was no penalty for doing that.

[pony_grandma]

I did. But before rules. Making a turn thru a fence/shrub/treeline - the only opening, only sightline into the wooded area of the course. The first visible fence was a jump in/ 2 stride/ jump out box. I was supposed to ride around it. It was right smack in the way of my one level lower fence. My horse perked up seeing it, hooked on and I didn’t want to have to pull him off since he got so happy! So yeah we jumped in and it rode beautiful.

[ake987]

Yes, by accident! At my first Novice, I accidentally jumped a Training fence that was right next to my intended jump. I realized my mistake mid-air and circled back and jumped my correct fence. No penalty.

Chalk it up to a blonde moment and forgetting if I was jumping white on black or black on white.

[RAyers]

Sometimes these posts make me long for the old, more “wild west” days.

There was a competition in Santa Fe NM (Goosedowns) where the course had a few fences where the paths to them were out of sight from the officials. When the organizer and I were chatting later, he commented on how did my schooling go since I disappeared for a couple of minutes between fences. (I’ll admit, I already knew what I was going to do and how I was going to do it so we still stayed ahead of the next rider).

In another case, I knew we were ready for advanced when at the old Maui Jim HT I took the advanced table because it was right on the line to the OI combination up banks in the back field.