Head position when in the "Endurance Trot"

[SharonA]

We don’t do Endurance, but my horse has a trot that she pulls out on the trail in which she extends her stride and does what I call “the power float” – those feet are coming down pretty hard and she is MOVING, but she is airborne for a noticeable time between each step. When really into it, and now she’s doing it at the gallop, you will feel her whole neck just drop between her shoulder blades and her body basically turns into a ground-covering machine.

Is the low head and neck a good use of her body, or is it a position that indicates correct or incorrect action from her hind end, do you think? It seems like she finds it very comfortable. She is much better at using her hind end than she used to be, and of course neither of us care to be in a dressage frame when out enjoying the trails, but, just want to know if this is a position that can be allowed, or if it would develop the wrong muscles. It is alot better than hollowing, I’ll say that!

Thank you, O Coth-ers!!

[Auventera_Two]

I think that moving round and soft over the topline is always a good thing. Once my horse developed good muscling and condition, the lower headset, power trot was became very easy for her.

[HPFarmette]

It sounds like she’s really “using herself” and I bet it’s beautiful to see.

[pdq]

Read this about the pitfalls of the “big trot” during Endurance rides.

This does not mean it it isn’t good for just trail riding. This articles points to the “big trot” being a problem for the long long miles (50 and 100 miles) of an endurance ride, and for endurance training.

[Lieselotte]

pdq, I was just going to post the exact same link!
Some very interesting points are made in there and I secretly gave a big sigh of relief as I already canter quite a lot on a 50 and have not fostered a faster and/or more extended trot. (I can’t post the trot at a speed higher than 10mph…) My mare’s fastest trot is about 10-11mph but we have an even better canter at that same speed. In general, we mix it up quite a lot depending on terrain, but try to keep the speed constant.

To the OP, be glad your horse is already offering that low-head position rather than the opposite! You would have a lot of work to do… I see so many endurance horses with “giraffe necks” and it is incredibly bad for their back to travel any distance like that. It sounds like your horse is doing alright, but you may want her to learn not to pound the ground so hard. And there’s nothing wrong with throwing in a little dressage on the trail to remind them to be “light & easy” and not mile-devouring speed devils…

[Auventera_Two]

@pdq;5038990

Read this about the pitfalls of the “big trot” during Endurance rides.

This does not mean it it isn’t good for just trail riding. This articles points to the “big trot” being a problem for the long long miles (50 and 100 miles) of an endurance ride, and for endurance training.

Transitions within the gaits, and transitions to different gaits are common sense - or so I thought. The horse generally tells you which gait and speed within that gait they are most comfortable and efficient at. I don’t know any endurance riders that would push their horse into a huge extended power trot for 50 miles - and how many horses could truly do that without becoming sore, exhausted, and thereby reflecting it in their vet scores? The riders I have conditioned with and learned from have expressed the importance of changing what you’re doing frequently to rest specific muscle groups and work others. Changing diagonals, gaits, leads, and speeds. That’s what I was taught anyway. Makes sense to me.

[Lieselotte]

I don’t know any endurance riders that would push their horse into a huge extended power trot for 50 miles

Conditioning rides are different from competition rides… I’ve followed, or have been passed by, plenty of endurance riders that keep up the same hard and fast trot over many many miles. Many Arabians are capable of doing this without (immediate) repercussions and vet through fine. Of course that doesn’t mean you have to ride like that, and I personally prefer to switch it up between trotting and cantering, and when trotting, keeping it around 9/10mph rather than slowing or speeding up within the gait (of course this all depends on terrain.) Another “rule” in Endurance is to keep the pace as even as possible. Having many speed changes is counterproductive so you want to find a nice “cruising speed” to keep that heart rate even. Few people with truly fit horses will actually walk during a competition (unless to climb up or down) just so the horse can use different muscle groups… You may do that during conditioning rides, where you should do all kinds of interval training, hill work, etc. anyway, but it’s quite a bit different at an actual event.

[Foxtrot_s]

I don’t endurance ride … however, the big trot does not feel economical to me.
Also, racehorses will plane - they lower, the legs become wheels and the back is travelling without moving up and down - again, they are putting out extreme effort but over your long distances, it would not be economical, even though it is the most direct route from the start to the finish.

[pdq]

Question to the OP - what breed of horse are you riding?

[Auventera_Two]

@Lieselotte;5039451

Conditioning rides are different from competition rides… I’ve followed, or have been passed by, plenty of endurance riders that keep up the same hard and fast trot over many many miles. Many Arabians are capable of doing this without (immediate) repercussions and vet through fine. Of course that doesn’t mean you have to ride like that, and I personally prefer to switch it up between trotting and cantering, and when trotting, keeping it around 9/10mph rather than slowing or speeding up within the gait (of course this all depends on terrain.) Another “rule” in Endurance is to keep the pace as even as possible. Having many speed changes is counterproductive so you want to find a nice “cruising speed” to keep that heart rate even. Few people with truly fit horses will actually walk during a competition (unless to climb up or down) just so the horse can use different muscle groups… You may do that during conditioning rides, where you should do all kinds of interval training, hill work, etc. anyway, but it’s quite a bit different at an actual event.

Well, maybe because I grew up riding dressage - extended trot, working trot, medium trot, and collected trot are all different variations of the same gait. I’m thinking this huge, extended power trot to be truly an “extended trot.” A working trot can also be powerful and forward without the huge moment of suspension the extension has.

I think it all boils down to what the individual horse cruises best at. My horse is naturally a canter’er. The nice big working trot came with age and conditioning but the canter is always her cruising speed and preferred gait. Her heart rate is lower at the canter than at working trot in most cases. The stallion though is a trotter. He has a gorgeous, balanced canter, but he’d prefer to cover miles at strong working trot. Every horse is different.

[egontoast]

We don’t do Endurance, but my horse has a trot that she pulls out on the trail in which she extends her stride and does what I call “the power float” – those feet are coming down pretty hard and she is MOVING, but she is airborne for a noticeable time between each step. When really into it, and now she’s doing it at the gallop, you will feel her whole neck just drop between her shoulder blades and her body basically turns into a ground-covering machine.

from auventera 2:

][Well, maybe because I grew up riding dressage - extended trot, working trot, medium trot, and collected trot are all different variations of the same gait. I’m thinking this huge, extended power trot to be truly an “extended trot.” A working trot can also be powerful and forward without the huge moment of suspension the extension has.

/QUOTE]

Like the Op, I don’t do endurance either but have to disagree with Auventera2. The trot described by the OP is not 'truly an extended trot" in the dressage sense. That’s a good thing because you would not want a true extended trot on an endurance ride or for any length of time. It’s a very physically demanding gait for the horse and comes from a high level of collection built up through progressive dressage training and conditioning and it’s not adviseable to do for extended periods of time no pun intended. There is an old expression that a horse only has so many extended trots in there so you don’t over do it. It’s often where the first irregularities show up in a seasoned dressage horse (Rusty, for example)

On the other hand, a lower head carriage may help the horse access the back and hind end as opposed to a hollow inverted posture. it has nothing to do with an extended trot in the dressage sense though as was incorrectly suggested above.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=egontoast;5042556]

Like the Op, I don’t do endurance either but have to disagree with Auventera2. The trot described by the OP is not 'truly an extended trot" in the dressage sense. That’s a good thing because you would not want a true extended trot on an endurance ride or for any length of time. It’s a very physically demanding gait for the horse and comes from a high level of collection built up through progressive dressage training and conditioning and it’s not adviseable to do for extended periods of time no pun intended. There is an old expression that a horse only has so many extended trots in there so you don’t over do it. It’s often where the first irregularities show up in a seasoned dressage horse (Rusty, for example)

On the other hand, a lower head carriage may help the horse access the back and hind end as opposed to a hollow inverted posture. it has nothing to do with an extended trot in the dressage sense though as was incorrectly suggested above.[/QUOTE]

A true extended trot in the dressage sense does have a lot of suspension, but is also supposed to involve some stretching across the topline.

Any horse with any amount of physical ability can do a true extended trot, although not for long periods of time. Years of dressage training are not required.

[SharonA]

Thanks, all!

Thanks, everyone! I am glad to hear that it is not some sort of evasion from using her hind end — ie, she is not using the lowered neck and head to compensate for not using her hind end… that’s what I was concerned about.

This is not a dressage-y extended trot in that her head and neck are not in a dressage frame – they’re lower and I betcha her head is alittle in front of the vertical and again, she is FLYING. No big stupid WB can move like this, this fast. (what? What? Prejudice, you say? Stereotyping, you say?:lol:) It’s not round and soft so much as it is driving power with some elasticity. And, while it’s not terrible, she’s heavy on the forehand. I find myself throwing in half-halts. I might like to get her balanced alittle more at this pace, but I’m not going to take away all her fun by making her be uber-correct (as if that were within the realm of reality).

She is an Arab, and used to carry her head very high and travel hollow-backed, but we don’t do that anymore and as she is a lady, her hind legs are not as far apart as those of the Arab in the posted link.

Seriously, though, I don’t think she can pull off quite that much flexibility/athleticism in her hinds.

But, since I know she can move like this on the trail, you know what that means for her for when we do our dressage schooling (insert evil laughter here).

[egontoast]

Any horse with any amount of physical ability can do a true extended trot, although not for long periods of time.

No, not without progressive training and collection if you are talking about the “extended trot” in a dressage context which is how it was used above.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=egontoast;5042830]
No, not without progressive training and collection if you are talking about the “extended trot” in a dressage context which is how it was used above.;)[/QUOTE]

We’ll have to agree to disagree about that. Sometimes horses can spontaneously do correct movements without the peppie le peu tense aspect. And very fun to experience when it happens under saddle.

[goeslikestink]

urm by the sounds of it sounds like the horse is pissing off, as commonly know over as a running trot as allowing the horse to get its head down and off which isnt a collected extended trot
here is a collect extended trot that is used in dressage or showing classes

http://topandalusianstallion.com/post_images/lazaroExtendedTrot.jpg

and heres how to get it

Begin with a normal working trot to get a regular rhythm.
2. Learn in horse riding lessons how to sit and post.
3. You should practice lengthening your leg in sitting trot to provide more motion absorption.
4. The cue for an extended trot is to sit deep into the saddle and use calf pressure to encourage extension.
5. Remember that contact with the horse’s mouth is also important because you are not trying to speed up the trot but create extension of the legs.
6. Decide if you can sit the extended trot. It can be very uncomfortable and some horses have a more bouncy trot which makes it more difficult to sit.
7. Posting sometimes encourages further extension by pushing with the seat on the downswing of each post.
8. If you want to ride an extended trot make sure that you do so on the straight. Don’t try to make your horse extend on a curve it will become unbalanced and confuse the horse.
9. You should reward your horse for an extended trot by ending with a working trot and patting his neck.

[egontoast]

gls, I think you are talking about how to do a 'lengthening" there rather than a 'extended trot" but plenty of people use the terms interchangeably.

That’s fine but incorrect when using dressage terminology. Also that photo would not be the best example of an extended trot.

Sorry if we sidetracked your thread, OP! Carry on!

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=SharonA;5038708]
We don’t do Endurance, but my horse has a trot that she pulls out on the trail in which she extends her stride and does what I call “the power float” – those feet are coming down pretty hard and she is MOVING, but she is airborne for a noticeable time between each step. When really into it, and now she’s doing it at the gallop, you will feel her whole neck just drop between her shoulder blades and her body basically turns into a ground-covering machine.

Is the low head and neck a good use of her body, or is it a position that indicates correct or incorrect action from her hind end, do you think? It seems like she finds it very comfortable. She is much better at using her hind end than she used to be, and of course neither of us care to be in a dressage frame when out enjoying the trails, but, just want to know if this is a position that can be allowed, or if it would develop the wrong muscles. It is alot better than hollowing, I’ll say that!

this is what we call her a runniing trot its where by the horse is allowed to take the bit and run so rather than you be in contrl the horse is,

often ponies have that ability to tank, as in the same as you say power float its not a true collected extended trot, its just you rhose putting her head down and as you say powering away from you so her feet do tend to go faster and higher and harder ,

for exsample i could very well do that with my mare at any given time whilse the rest of the ride are cantering, its s running trot not a controlled trot

as in horse is doing it and your letting her so, when it comes to doing something
like dressage and you want to go into canter or say show jumping and you need to go into canter to give you that extra boost over the jump then more than likely the mare will just change into a running trot and one wouldnt get any points and one would knock the jump down as not enough implusion from the hind ned or not being egaged properly with you hind end to give you the true collect extended trot

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=egontoast;5042971]
gls, I think you are talking about how to do a 'lengthening" there rather than a 'extended trot" but plenty of people use the terms interchangeably.

That’s fine but incorrect when using dressage terminology. Also that photo would not be the best example of an extended trot.

Sorry if we sidetracked your thread, OP! Carry on! :)[/QUOTE]

nope you havent ok
sitting trot is to ask ahorse or pony to shorten its striding say before one goes into canter , you dont rise before you would ask to canter as you would be lengthening your stride

collected extended trot is another gear altogether its asking the horse to extend its trot in a sitting position

so working trot-- is a natural trot of the horse when under saddle

collected trot -an enaged trot toward the horse hindquarters

medium trot a more rounded engaged trot than the working trot with
little moderately extended strides. It lies between the working and the extended trot so the horse has a tad more complusion

rising trot a trot with lengthened strides It differs from the more advanced extended trot in that is does not require the horse to bring its weight as far back on its hindquarters

extended trot an engaged trot with long strides, where the horse stretches its frame, lengthening the strides to the greatest degree possible. The horse has a great amount of suspension. The back is round and the horse’s head just in front of the vertical

at the end of the day if ones competing in any disipline then the basic foundations of schooling go right across the baord to include in endurance and the art of any displine is to the fitness of your horse and the condition that its in and when your competing you have to condition and prepare your horse fit for the job in hand

[Auventera_Two]

@SharonA;5042741

This is not a dressage-y extended trot in that her head and neck are not in a dressage frame – they’re lower and I betcha her head is alittle in front of the vertical and again, she is FLYING.

“Dressage” and “frame” shouldn’t be used in the same sentence, but that’s probably beyond the scope of this thread. :lol:

No big stupid WB can move like this, this fast. (what? What? Prejudice, you say? Stereotyping, you say?:lol:)

Not sure what the intelligence of warmbloods has to do with your Ay-Rab but I think that also is beyond the scope of this thread.

It’s not round and soft so much as it is driving power with some elasticity. And, while it’s not terrible, she’s heavy on the forehand. I find myself throwing in half-halts. I might like to get her balanced alittle more at this pace, but I’m not going to take away all her fun by making her be uber-correct (as if that were within the realm of reality).

A good extension should not result in a horse that is heavy on the forehand. The more you describe this power trot your horse does, the more it sounds like the horse is trying to lengthen as much as possible but doesn’t have the proper muscling or training to pull it off correctly. An extension should be powerful and driving from the engine of the hindquarters, but a good extension is also balanced and results in a horse very light on the forehand.

You should be careful about allowing the horse to rip balls to the wall down the trail in a huge power trot that she’s not conditioned or trained for. You can end up with strains and sprains from overuse and improper use of joints and soft tissue.

She is an Arab, and used to carry her head very high and travel hollow-backed, but we don’t do that anymore and as she is a lady, her hind legs are not as far apart as those of the Arab in the posted link.

Traveling lower and rounder over the topline is always a good thing. High headed and hollow are not generally very productive or safe.

Seriously, though, I don’t think she can pull off quite that much flexibility/athleticism in her hinds.

An extended trot comes from a power-generating hindquarter. If your horse’s back end is weak, then she cannot perform a true, correct extension of the trot. She may be lengthening and attempting to trot huge due to adrenaline, too much energy, not being allowed or asked to break to canter, etc. but until you develop the hindquarters, you are risking damaging your horse’s skeleton and soft tissue. On a horse like that, I would feel much safer working at a medium and working trot, doing hills, and engaging in a slow fitness program before allowing the horse to do this huge trot down the trail. Trotting cavaletti is also a great way to build balance and fitness.

But, since I know she can move like this on the trail, you know what that means for her for when we do our dressage schooling (insert evil laughter here).

Dressage schooling is always beneficial to trail horses. Life is too short to chase my tail around a ring for endless years ad nauseum - BUT - dressage lessons, and schooling on a weekly basis can be very beneficial.