Head tossing/bit issue? Allergy test result

[Critter]

I had posted last summer about bit issues with my now coming 5 yo mare (rather than resurrect that thread, I am posting based on what I have figured out now). She took strong exception to any NS brand bit (sudden stopping and violently rubbing her face). Since then, I’ve switched to Fager titanium bits…that totally solved the stopping and rubbing issue. But we still have a lot of head tossing and fussing in the beginning of the ride…and I’ve tried every version of bit mouthpiece/size/etc.

Here is the summary:
I normally can get right on to ride (no lunge needed)…she will walk quiet and relaxed on the buckle as long as you want with no fussing.
I pick up the reins and walk on contact (young horse appropriate, not cramming her into a tight frame). She is a bit fussy/tight feeling/not fully supple. I’ve spent more time walking doing lots of bending lines to try and get her feeling more through and soft before we go to the trot.
When we first go to trot, we have some significant head tosses (some days not so bad, some days you nearly get a broken nose)…followed by 2-3 huge coughs (have to stop and let her stretch her head all the way to the ground to cough)…followed by several sneezes. You have to just stop and let her cough/sneeze it out…you cannot ride through it. Non-productive cough.
Then she will mostly go to work in the trot…but the first few minutes will still have some head tossing…at times it feels like she gets pinched because it’s that type of feeling to the head toss (not a rhythmic toss)…really feels like she gets mad or gets pinched…very sudden and when you think the contact is nice a soft she will just give a violent head toss (so it’s not always connected to turning/contact/etc). We haven’t done much canter as that starts the head tossing cycle and her canter is huge (so I’ve not wanted to canter and create a monster until we have a better feel/connection)…vet agreed with focusing on trot and holding off on under saddle canter.

I’ve been riding in the mullen mouth D ring bit (she was more fussy with the HS Duo compared to the Fager mullen)…and she was more fussy this week so I went back to the double joint today to experiment.
Today I lunged (no sidereins, just bridle) in the double joint and she was really head tossing (and shaking it in the canter, like when a fly lands on them or after the roll, so a side to side shake). She also does the dominant mare head flick on the lunge when asked to transition. Going to go back to the mullen mouth since that has seemed to be the one she is quietest in.

I did have the vet out to watch her a several weeks ago…vet actually said she was catching in her stifles…but instead of catching fully (and dropping out) she would head toss and sort of lurch a bit to avoid catching. Vet seemed to think it was all related to stifle weakness and the head toss was a side effect of her avoiding the stifle catch. I am not convinced that is all we are dealing with, but my vet is pretty good (so is my gut instinct…which says there is still something head/mouth related).

We then added trot poles and more walk trot transitions (no hills here). Most of the head toss is only in the beginning of the ride (you can get her to do really nice transitions by the end). But there is occasional sudden sharp head tosses all the way through.

I’ve done no noseband and that made no difference. Same whether you use a flash or not. She is better when I have the bit higher in her mouth. No head tossing in turnout…though you do get the head toss when she is feeling fresh and running around outside. Saddle fit is good (recent check). No ulcers (checked). Doesn’t rub her face (unless you use a NS type metal - that makes her angry!!). Teeth floated recently - all normal.

I was thinking of asking the vet to do a scope just to check her mouth/airway better? I ordered an anatomical bridle to try (one with the noseband that takes pressure away from the nerves). I do want to try bitless (maybe when we get a warmer day and she’s a bit less in the winter baby horse mode! LOL).

Maybe it is all strength and I just need to stick with it? I just feel like we should have worked through this issue better by now. And it really feels like a pain type head toss response. She is overall once of the best youngsters I’ve had and has a really good brain, so I feel like I can do more to make sure she’s 100% comfortable.

[sparkygrace]

You have just described my gelding. He has been difficult in the contact ever since I bought him. I have tried ten bits. The only bit that has made him comfortable is a straight nylon D-ring. However, he still pulls on the reins and tosses his head.

I have had his back, neck, TMJ, and head x-rayed. The vet saw nothing. His stifles were injected, but he still is difficult in the contact. He is sound. He is better once he is very forward. His saddle fits pretty well and a fitter is looking at it this afternoon. He is also recovered from EPM, but I don’t think that had anything to do with the mouth issues. This is exactly what my horse does:

When we first go to trot, we have some significant head tosses (some days not so bad, some days you nearly get a broken nose)…followed by 2-3 huge coughs (have to stop and let her stretch her head all the way to the ground to cough)…followed by several sneezes. You have to just stop and let her cough/sneeze it out…you cannot ride through it. Non-productive cough.

I used the HS Duo and he chewed on it until it was bent. My current bit has a hole chewed on the right side, just like every nylon/rubber bit I have used. My vet thinks it’s just a habit and not caused by pain.

I wish I could help you with a solution because I would love one, too. Maybe some others have gone through this and have a solution. I have brought along at least a dozen horses and never had one with contact issues like this!

[TWH_Girl]

Just going to say…my 5 yr old TWH is having this very same issue and it is due to stifle catching and weakness. We are doing strengthening and did have to Prostride for the stifle soreness as he was very reactive to palpation. I think it’s worth looking into!

[Jackie_Cochran]

I may be WAY off base with this, but whatever.

Could you in any way get the vet to concentrate on the hyoid apparatus bones? This consists of 7 bones and they some of them form joints with other bones in the hyoid apparatus.

There are many muscles attached to the hyoid bones. One pair, the sternohyoideus muscles, go from the tongue process where the hyoid bone goes into the base of the horse’s tongue then down the front of the neck down to the very front of the sternum. Another pair goes from the thyroid cartilage (right behind the uvula and between the rear bones of the hyoid) down to the front of the sternum. Another pair, the omohyoideus go down from the base of the hyoid bone just behind the part that projects into the tongue down the front of the neck to the inside of the scapula. These muscles are involved with swallowing. One bone of the hyoid apparatus goes all the way up to and articulates with the temporal bone of the skull, and those bones have their own pair of muscles.

So if the scapula moves “wrong” it can pull on the hyoid apparatus. There is connection between the hyoid and some of the muscles that help the horse “yield” his poll. And the base of the tongue is firmly attached to the hyoid apparatus.

The horse’s windpipe seems to end a little bit behind the hyoid apparatus, with the horse’s epiglottis between the thyrohyoid bones of the hyoid apparatus.

Yes, this may be an unproductive dive down a rabbit hole., but my brain started screaming at me that it may pay off if you ask the vet to check this really small area of the horse’s mouth out.

Good luck.

[sascha]

Check for canines. I found them in a 7yo mare last year. Just below the surface, they needed the vet’s help to erupt.

Check for respiratory issues, both upper and lower including intermittent epiglottal entrapment.

Failing any findings (including those suggested by others, plus possibly revisiting the potential stifles issues) start over. Longe with side reins until balance and acceptance of bit is attained. Then start your rides after longeing as just cool out walks. Gradually decrease the longe time and increase the ridden time. Gradually is key.

[Mouse_amp_Bay]

@Critter

I did have the vet out to watch her a several weeks ago…vet actually said she was catching in her stifles…but instead of catching fully (and dropping out) she would head toss and sort of lurch a bit to avoid catching. Vet seemed to think it was all related to stifle weakness and the head toss was a side effect of her avoiding the stifle catch. I am not convinced that is all we are dealing with, but my vet is pretty good (so is my gut instinct…which says there is still something head/mouth related).

I have been taught the same. Stifles are directly connected to the mouth - until her legs get strong, she will struggle maintaining a soft contact. Talk to your vet about what she needs re: physio program. Hacks? Raised poles? Transitions? Or get a really good trainer involved.

She has weak stifles (normal in many young horses) - work on strengthening that and the contact will magically fix itself.

[Gardenhorse]

I think hind end issues can definitely be a reason for head tossing. I had the vet and dentist out, and went through multiple bits, bridles, and nosebands with my mare. But then she became obviously not quite right behind and after a few misdiagnoses and a new vet, it turned out that the actual issue was that she had SI and stifle issues. Once we fixed those, the head tossing went away.

[fivestrideline]

My stifle horse did a very mild version of this - he had catching stifles and lack of fitness. The stifle can randomly catch on that ligament and cause the reaction you’re seeing, and it’s not always predictable when it’ll happen.

So I’d say stifles are probably contributing. Can she go bitless for a while as you strengthen her hind end, and then go back to a bit? What sort of rehab did the vet give? Tail pulls, elevated weight shifts, cavaletti, EquiCore, etc?

Assuming you’ve had her mouth checked extensively and swapped bits all over, I’m with the vet that you should address anything else outside her mouth that could be causing this (like her stifles). Circle back to the bit once you can rule that out.

[Critter]

Thanks everyone for the input - especially those of you who have seen the connection to the weak stifles. I think we need to go back to more focused work on strengthening the stifles and reassess once I’ve been more consistent with that. Vet didn’t really give us anything specific other than to tell me we need to strengthen her stifles. We did add hind shoes for a bit more support.

I have also noticed the last few weeks she has a rub on the outside of her L hock…my old gelding would also get those when his hocks were bothering him (inject hocks on him and the sores stopped every time). It’s just on the left hock and only when she has to stay inside at night (most nights she is out, but if the weather is crappy…which it has been a lot lately…she is in at night). It healed up when they were back out all night last week, and is bleeding again with being in the last two nights. So, maybe that is also pointing to some hind end weakness going on?

[TWH_Girl]

My late gelding also would get hock sores when he needed his hocks done.
I noticed the stifle catching on my guy after the head issues, and then had the vet out. Usually there is some degree of soreness or synovitis in most catching because it does stress the joint the more it happens.
A good place to start is some in hand exercises like poles, backing, tail pulls, ab tucks and butt tucks. Raised poles as strength is developed. Estrone works 50-50 (usually not in mares and I can’t recall offhand if you has a mare). Adequan or Legend is a good start to see if that resolves some soreness too- may help hocks as well.
Or you could have a more extensive work up done with flexions to pinpoint the area of concern. I can’t imagine a vet just saying stifles are catching and nothing more about it. It can be a complex issue and SI can also be secondary source of pain

[fivestrideline]

@TWH_Girl

I can’t imagine a vet just saying stifles are catching and nothing more about it.

To be fair - mine did. “All I can see is his stifles catch” and told to work him. Very short appointment and conversation. A past vet gave me a book basically of rehab protocol so at least I’m able to rely on that.

OP, you can open a massive can of worms here if you’d like. You may need to, seeing as she’s got a dramatic reaction to something. Or you can take the conservative approach and see if things change with a few weeks of concentration on strengthening those stifles. Best choice is of course to have the best lameness vet you have come out and do a workup, but personally I would start with some focused work without a bit in and then see what happens.

[Mouse_amp_Bay]

Good point.

If your vet just said “strengthen stifles”, our local specialist clinic recommends the following books for more detail:

55 Corrective Exercise

Physical Therapy for horses

Biomechanics and Physical Training of the horse - this one is super in depth but excellent

[Critter]

Thanks for this list…put them all in my Amazon cart! I am a PT (I admit all of my training beyond school is in neuro trauma, not ortho! LOL)…so all the concepts make sense, but I am certainly not an equine anatomy expert, so that’s where a bit of reading will be a huge help!

[Viranh]

I’ve had some head tossing and fussing from 4 year old, especially at the canter and she has been struggling with sticking stifles. Estrone worked wonderfully for her, so based on my n=1, it can work for mares. What I’ve read is that it’s most effective in horses with a behavioral component, which she definitely had. Estrone is pretty cheap, so it might be worth a try.

[IPEsq]

Stifle issues won’t cause coughing though. While there may be a connection between stifles and the head tossing, I think a scope of the airway wouldn’t be a bad idea. Especially since she has issues without a rider as well.

I’ve got a related issue with my young horse I can’t figure out (and we have looked at stifles already). With him it’s sneezing and tossing and sometimes chomping with right molars as well. Just very inconsistent in the contact and the more I ask him to push into it, it’s like he gets claustrophobic. So much face rubbing. Have tried many bits…I think I mentioned the Trust or Nathe on your last thread. That was good for quite a while then I used it at a show, and show tension got him with the chomping so now he has the habit of sometimes wanting to chew through the right side. Even though in other ways that is better than metal. Haven’t tried titanium, but there’s really no difference between Sensogan, NS or Bombers sweet iron.

[TWH_Girl]

That is a good point. I had forgotten about the coughing fits OP mentioned.

[Critter]

Yes…the cough is definitely not a stifle related issue…and I think that is why I still feel like there is something head/mouth/airway going on. The cough is only at the beginning…but it’s not like my old gelding who does his clear his throat cough while hardly missing a beat. This is a full body, head to the ground cough. It’s almost like she does something funny with her tongue…or tries to get it over the bit and then sort of chokes herself in the process. Because most of the time, once you’ve ridden about 15 minutes (ie walk warmup and one trot set) the head tossing significantly calms down…unless you try to canter (then it starts again). And it doesn’t feel like a contact thing, because once she does settle we can do leg yields and serpentines and trot poles without any head toss due to contact (just an occasional totally unpredictable toss).

I will say there is no cough without a rider…though there is sneezing and head tossing.

[atr]

Allergies? Try a course of antihistamines and see if it helps?

[Critter]

Maybe…but if it was allergies, wouldn’t I be seeing sneezing at other times? It’s only when riding/lunging that you get the cough/sneezing. Would welcome others experiences as to whether their allergy/heaves horses only showed signs when working. She’s not one to run a lot in turnout…so I can’t say I’ve noticed whether the sneezing happens when she’s just loose and running around…I’ll try to pay more attention to that.

[atr]

I can only talk from human personal experience, but activity will make me cough and sneeze more, as of course will arena dust, and a change of environment–going from indoors to outdoors, for instance.