Heel pain / navicular diagnosis with pics - need to make decisions: (SEE POST #75) Update post #101

[Ganesha]

One more navicular/heel pain thread here. Seem to be a lot lately.

I’m posting under an alter, looking for any suggestions about who to go to for a second opinion. My 8 yo TB gelding has had intermittent right front mild lameness for the last 6 months or so. Vet did a lameness exam last week with flexions, nerve block, and X-rays, and confirmed he is 2/5 lame in his RF. After the nerve block, he trotted 90% sound on hard ground. He typically works 5 days week mostly on sand and grass, WTC and until a month ago low jumping (2 foot max).

After reviewing the X-rays, the vet said he has navicular syndrome, and advised starting with three degree aluminum wedges and bringing toe and breakover back. Vet said he had a low but not negative palmar angle, and his feet did not look too bad, but was concerned about the navicular changes. I measured vertical toe height that day (front toe length of all four feet were 3.5" (horse is 16.1). Advise was: turnout, light walking for 4/5 days, then retest at trot to see how he’s adapting to the new shoes.

Pics:
http://imgur.com/a/WZ0ct

It is 7 days since he was shod with the wedge shoes, and my horse seems slightly worse . He moves about fine and even plays/prances a bit on the lead, but has a clear head bob at a trot. Also, he looks to have an altered stance - I catch him on the cross ties occasionally looking like he is standing a bit with his front legs forward, which just about makes my hair stand on end, and which I attribute partially to the fact that farrier only reshod the fronts when out on the 1st, and left the backs “until next time”. So he is 3" long in front and 3.5" long in back.

I would like to find a new farrier, and the best 2nd opinion I can get so I can get a plan to have his feet trimmed and shod properly. I have some leads on farriers, but am unsure who to choose for a consult. After combining through the threads, the names Stephen O’Grady and NANRIC/Ric Redden come up a lot. It seems Redden usually suggests a very specialized trim (four point). I’m not sure what O’Grady recommends. Does anyone have recommendations or experience with either of these vets, or with with others?

All comments will be much welcomed. I’m in Texas, Gulf Coast Area.

[crimsonsky]

i hate wedges. i think your horse would be so much better off with a better trim before those natural balance shoes are put back on (at least that’s what they look like in those photos). his toes look too long and the heels as well - plus they’re all run forward (imo).

try this list: http://www.e-hoofcare.com/support/search/farrier/elpomemlist.html

[Ganesha]

Thanks for link, crimsonsky. I agree the whole foot is run forward. Just to be clear, the pics and rads I posted in that link were before the vet consult and new trim/reshoeing with wedges. I just uploaded pics of him post trim with the wedges on. I wish I knew more. I just don’t think there’s a big enough difference between the starting trim/shoe job and the new trim/shoe job w/wedges.

Starting pics: rads and side views of hooves taken 5/27/16
http://imgur.com/a/WZ0ct

First trim/shoeing with wedges after vet consult: 6/2/2016
http://imgur.com/a/JpCom

[StormyDay]

Just wanted to say, one of my horses was diagnosed with navicular, with xrays, about 6/7 years ago. We did pads and changed the angles of his hooves, then after that moved on to wedges. He would be sound for a few months and then he would become lame again, we would switch the angle, he would be sound again and then eventually lame again. Eventually my farrier told me that I was wasting too much money on shoeing a lame horse, and we pulled his shoes.
That was 5 years ago. He has been sound ever since (Knock on wood). The vet doesn’t know how, he definitely had navicular on the xrays. We compete in jumpers and dressage with no problems.
If you don’t see improvement with the shoes, I would try unshod and see if it helps at all. You never know with these horses

[Florida_Gator]

Ask your farrier about doing a french roll on the toes to help with breakover and moving the toe back. I can’t tell from the new pictures if he has done this or not. I can’t offer much advice on the wedges but, in my experience, I haven’t heard a bunch of positive information on them I just went through laminitis with mine so I absolutely understand your frustration & worry. Are you anywhere near Texas A&M? The vet school may have a farrier that they work with or that they can recommend in your area.

[Jungle_Monkey]

[QUOTE=StormyDay;8696153]
Just wanted to say, one of my horses was diagnosed with navicular, with xrays, about 6/7 years ago. We did pads and changed the angles of his hooves, then after that moved on to wedges. He would be sound for a few months and then he would become lame again, we would switch the angle, he would be sound again and then eventually lame again. Eventually my farrier told me that I was wasting too much money on shoeing a lame horse, and we pulled his shoes.
That was 5 years ago. He has been sound ever since (Knock on wood). The vet doesn’t know how, he definitely had navicular on the xrays. We compete in jumpers and dressage with no problems.
If you don’t see improvement with the shoes, I would try unshod and see if it helps at all. You never know with these horses :)[/QUOTE]

Same experience here minus the becoming completely sound for riding part but we tried every shoe imaginable, egg bars, straight bars, round bar, pads, half pad flip flops, regular shoes and he was never comfortable so my farrier finally threw his arms up in the air and said can we try barefoot…horse was the most comfortable this way…pasture sound. My best uneducated guess is he was comfortable because he could wear his feet the way that was most comfortable for him. I never tried wedges, hate them unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. Agree that a balanced hoof might help as well. I would also suggest that aluminum shoes are not good for a horse with navicular. Gallium nitrate saved my little guy. He would have had to be put down years ago but after three months on it, he turned around and has been pasture sound for 14 years, he’s 20 now and very rarely needs to have the gallium.

[Stitch_In_Time]

[QUOTE=StormyDay;8696153]
Just wanted to say, one of my horses was diagnosed with navicular, with xrays, about 6/7 years ago. We did pads and changed the angles of his hooves, then after that moved on to wedges. He would be sound for a few months and then he would become lame again, we would switch the angle, he would be sound again and then eventually lame again. Eventually my farrier told me that I was wasting too much money on shoeing a lame horse, and we pulled his shoes.
That was 5 years ago. He has been sound ever since (Knock on wood). The vet doesn’t know how, he definitely had navicular on the xrays. We compete in jumpers and dressage with no problems.

If you don’t see improvement with the shoes, I would try unshod and see if it helps at all. You never know with these horses :)[/QUOTE]

Take a look at this blog, they specialize in rehabbing horses with “navicular syndrome” by taking them barefoot. It’s some interesting reading, and I love looking at the photos of how much hooves can change when you remove shoes. It might be an option if the corrective shoeing doesn’t help.

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/

[Ganesha]

StormyDay, this is something I’ve been considering, although I’m not sure we have great terrain for a transition right now. Everything is either mud or sand. He’s out for the day and in at night, so he can get out of the muck at least at night (it has been raining nonstop here). I’m worried about pulling shoes in such wet conditions right now.

[Ganesha]

[QUOTE=Stitch In Time;8696766]
Take a look at this blog, they specialize in rehabbing horses with “navicular syndrome” by taking them barefoot. It’s some interesting reading, and I love looking at the photos of how much hooves can change when you remove shoes. It might be an option if the corrective shoeing doesn’t help.

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/[/QUOTE]

It appears they are in the UK - wish I could send my horse there! They seem to have an ideal situation for rehab. I’m not ready yet to pull shoes (raining constantly and area is mucky) but if I can’t sort this out through good trimming/shoeing I think I’ll have to look at barefoot as a possibility.

My main goal right now is to figure out how to find someone who knows how to get the foot back into balance and the heels growing the right direction - that could be a farrier who has had success on his own, or a farrier/vet combo.

[Stitch_In_Time]

[QUOTE=Ganesha;8696791]
It appears they are in the UK - wish I could send my horse there! They seem to have an ideal situation for rehab. I’m not ready yet to pull shoes (raining constantly and area is mucky) but if I can’t sort this out through good trimming/shoeing I think I’ll have to look at barefoot as a possibility.

My main goal right now is to figure out how to find someone who knows how to get the foot back into balance and the heels growing the right direction - that could be a farrier who has had success on his own, or a farrier/vet combo.[/QUOTE]

Yes, they are in the UK, I wish there was a US version of that place!

IME corrective shoeing (especially in the wrong hands) can cause more problems than it solves. You hear many people with heel pain horses talk about getting short term improvements and then the horse is lame again a few weeks/months later. If the horse can survive the transition period I think going barefoot, at least temporarily, to allow the back of the foot to expand again can be really helpful.

Be warned though, many farriers don’t know how to trim properly for a barefoot horse. I just had a new (highly recommended) farrier make my horse with tough as nails feet lame for 2 weeks because he decided to remove a bunch of sole. I think finding a good farrier is the most frustrating part of horse ownership!

[crimsonsky]

there is a place in Oklahoma that does some amazing rehab especially with feet. idk the name of the place, but i have a friend from California who sent her gelding there after he was diagnosed with hoof issues and was recommended to be put in pads/etc. he’s sound and back to work including jumping totally barefoot now. although i do believe she puts him in hoof boots for trail rides. i’ll see if i can get the name of the place. at a minimum, it might be a good reference.

[crimsonsky]

Tracie Audette - Wayne, OK

[LarkspurCO]

A roller motion shoe and someone with a lot of experience applying them may be worth considering.

https://www.americanfarriers.com/articles/6853-using-the-roller-motion-shoe

Morrison Open Roller:
http://www.grandcircuitinc.com/products/morrison-open-roller

This explains more about the therapeutic benefits:
http://soundhorse.com/products/therapeutic/morrison-roller-motion/

[Ganesha]

[QUOTE=LarkspurCO;8696968]
A roller motion shoe and someone with a lot of experience applying them may be worth considering.

https://www.americanfarriers.com/articles/6853-using-the-roller-motion-shoe

Morrison Open Roller:
http://www.grandcircuitinc.com/products/morrison-open-roller

This explains more about the therapeutic benefits:
http://soundhorse.com/products/therapeutic/morrison-roller-motion/[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Larkspur. Have you used this type of shoe on a horse before? Looks like the Morrisson Open Roller was designed by a Rood and Riddle vet/podiatrist. I’m considering a long distance consult/2nd opinion with them.

[Jungle_Monkey]

[QUOTE=Ganesha;8697273]
Thanks, Larkspur. Have you used this type of shoe on a horse before? Looks like the Morrisson Open Roller was designed by a Rood and Riddle vet/podiatrist. I’m considering a long distance consult/2nd opinion with them.[/QUOTE]

My gelding has them on…rehabbing from a DDFT injury in hoof. Farrier suggested and vet approved and is very pleased with how he is balanced and placing his hooves.

[StormyDay]

[QUOTE=Ganesha;8696789]
StormyDay, this is something I’ve been considering, although I’m not sure we have great terrain for a transition right now. Everything is either mud or sand. He’s out for the day and in at night, so he can get out of the muck at least at night (it has been raining nonstop here). I’m worried about pulling shoes in such wet conditions right now.[/QUOTE]

My horse was transitioned in Washington, which was rocky and muddy. It wasn’t ideal but it worked out ok, we waited until around this time of year so the pastures would be more level and dry. They are usually sore the first week to two weeks and then fine. However when my OTTB went barefoot be didn’t take a sore step. I rode him the same day.

[Ganesha]

[QUOTE=crimsonsky;8696934]
Tracie Audette - Wayne, OK[/QUOTE]

Appreciate it!

[LarkspurCO]

[QUOTE=Ganesha;8697273]
Thanks, Larkspur. Have you used this type of shoe on a horse before? Looks like the Morrisson Open Roller was designed by a Rood and Riddle vet/podiatrist. I’m considering a long distance consult/2nd opinion with them.[/QUOTE]

Yes. My older horse used to wear them and they corrected a serious problem in one cycle after the previous shoer had heels so badly crushed that he abscessed on both front heels. I have a picture somewhere I can show you. The farrier who used them was close friends with Scott Morrison and very experienced with the shoe. Worked a few miracles for me and retired from shoeing.

A recent trial with them on my younger gelding had mixed results. First he loved them, then when we put on a larger size he didn’t respond well. But his is a complicated case that we are still working through, and he may go back to the roller shoe once we get a clear diagnosis.

[Ganesha]

[QUOTE=LarkspurCO;8697712]
Yes. My older horse used to wear them and they corrected a serious problem in one cycle after the previous shoer had heels so badly crushed that he abscessed on both front heels. I have a picture somewhere I can show you. The farrier who used them was close friends with Scott Morrison and very experienced with the shoe. Worked a few miracles for me and retired from shoeing.
.[/QUOTE]

I would love to see the picture if you can find it. I did email Rood and Riddle with images and case history tonight and am waiting to hear their opinion.

[Chimera]

I’ve tried just about every type of shoe on my mare with navicular, have had her trimmed by a good barefoot trimmer, and for many years she was on bute daily just to be pasture sound. We put her in the easyshoe performance earlier this year, and she is the most comfortable she has been for a while. Not fantastic, but pasture sound without bute. I think the main advantage is that they are pretty supportive of the heel area but can be really set back to improve breakover. Plus you can add any sort of packing or pour in pad you want.