Heel pain / navicular diagnosis with pics - need to make decisions: (SEE POST #75) Update post #101

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=imaginique;8698948]
You might want to go to his web site and check out his credentials. He is a mechanical engineer and teaches at Ohio State–engineering and hoof trimming. No pseudo science involved.[/QUOTE]

No solution either. He simply concludes that there is very little true navicular disease but does not come up with the “correct” diagnosis or how to fix it. FWIW, unless there is evidence on xrays, we call it “caudal heel pain of undetermined origin.” My friend is dealing with this in a horse that did not work on hard surfaces and did not jump. And the horse has great feet - good size, great shape, never any problems, and was always barefoot til now. And plenty of WP horses get “navicular,” so there goes his theory of “horses that work on soft surfaces don’t get navicular.”

WRT wedge shoes - changing the angle of the foot will take some of the pressure off the DDFT.

[Comegaitby]

If you can, you should get an MRI. My horse had heel pain and his x-rays had some indicators of navicular but the MRI showed his navicular bone looked perfect and it was a mild soft tissue issue. With that info we were able to rehab it. Had we treated it as navicular we would likely have exacerbated the soft tissue issue more and then just figured it was his navicular progressing rather than realizing we were not responding to the right issue.

[Ganesha]

[QUOTE=Comegaitby;8700251]
If you can, you should get an MRI. My horse had heel pain and his x-rays had some indicators of navicular but the MRI showed his navicular bone looked perfect and it was a mild soft tissue issue. With that info we were able to rehab it. Had we treated it as navicular we would likely have exacerbated the soft tissue issue more and then just figured it was his navicular progressing rather than realizing we were not responding to the right issue.[/QUOTE]

Did you get the standing MRI or the regular one?

[LarkspurCO]

[QUOTE=imaginique;8699146]
Just throwing these articles out there in case OP is interested. Obviously you are not and you are entitled to your opinion.[/QUOTE]

Actually I am interested from the standpoint that the entire premise of the “enlightened equine” guy is sketchy and easily discredited. This notion that the forces from heel-first landing are responsible for creating heat and friction that damage the hoof is unfounded. He has no research or evidence to support his theory.

If you read enough of what he’s saying and put some thought into it, he actually discredits himself very effectively. This is why I call it pseudoscience, because that’s exactly what it is. He spins a nice yarn, but it is bound up with misinformation and conjecture, and there is nothing of real substance there. His writing reminds me a lot of the “Science of Motion” guy’s stuff.

He makes the claim that feral horses do not land heel first. It took me five minutes to find several videos showing that they DO land heel first in the walk and the trot (though he seems to focus mostly on the walk).

Here’s just one. Play it at 0.25 speed and it’s very clear that the horses walking across the road are landing heel first.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IejGTX2pJto

I could probably find hundreds more if I cared to take the time to look. I question whether he ever even studied the movement of a feral horse. At any rate, no one has informed the horses, feral or domesticated, that landing heel first is wrong and will make them lame.

Sorry to bash on someone you like, but I feel that critical thinking is in order when disseminating this type of information.

[OneGrayPony]

I put my navicular guy in wedges at first, and he got less comfortable. He was moving with tiny tiny strides and ick. Then I put him in eponas. For the first couple of days he was lame (I think largely due to all the nailing etc…I may need to bute him for the farrier), but then he evened out. His walk stride is back to being large with a beautiful flat/heel first landing instead of looking like a ballerina. When being chased out of somewhere he wasn’t supposed to be, he did his floaty long strided trot again - that I haven’t seen in awhile.

I’m anxious to see how the next round of shoeing goes, but he’s staying in the eponas as far as I am concerned! I don’t know if it’s the right solution for every horse, but they sure seem to be helping mine. Good luck!!!

[Kolsch]

Admittedly I did not read the enlightened info in depth.

My take away from it was that what the human eye sees as heel first is an exaggerated heel first and undesireable. What we see as a flat landing is still heel first but not undesireable.

I’m not going to go fishing online, but I seem to recall that there is mainstream thought that agrees with the premise that an exaggerated heel first landing IS undesireable. Personally, that’s just common sense. Where one draws the line as to what an exaggerated heel first landing is the question to me and obviously there’s no science to back that up.

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=Comegaitby;8700251]
If you can, you should get an MRI. My horse had heel pain and his x-rays had some indicators of navicular but the MRI showed his navicular bone looked perfect and it was a mild soft tissue issue. With that info we were able to rehab it. Had we treated it as navicular we would likely have exacerbated the soft tissue issue more and then just figured it was his navicular progressing rather than realizing we were not responding to the right issue.[/QUOTE]

What exactly did you do? MRIs usually involve a long haul and a lot of money, which is why a lot of people don’t get them done.

[Comegaitby]

I hauled him to Fairfield Equine in Newtown CT. There were closer options to me but I was advised it was worth the trip for the expertise in reading the MRI. It was a standing MRI and the image quality was great and we got very clear results. I’m not sure I would have done it as readily I couldn’t have done the standing. The cost was really quite reasonable and more than worth it in the long run (that said, my horse is insured and they paid 50%).

[Ganesha]

[QUOTE=Comegaitby;8701216]
I hauled him to Fairfield Equine in Newtown CT. There were closer options to me but I was advised it was worth the trip for the expertise in reading the MRI. It was a standing MRI and the image quality was great and we got very clear results. I’m not sure I would have done it as readily I couldn’t have done the standing. The cost was really quite reasonable and more than worth it in the long run (that said, my horse is insured and they paid 50%).[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the info. I don’t have insurance, but would consider and can an MRI. I’ve done a bit of research. There are two options near me:

Standing MRI at Elgin Vet Hospital
http://elginveterinaryhospital.com/equine-division/services-equine/hallmarq-standing-mri/

Texas A&M - regular MRI with general anesthesia
They have a 3 Tesla MRI.

Putting him under scares the cr@p out of me, but I think if I had to go under somewhere, Texas A&M vet school would be one of the best places for it. However, given the expense, I would want the best images I could get.

Also, I don’t know if it is true, but I heard that they hoist the horse onto the table by the legs, and there is possibly some risk of strain or damage in doing that.

So, MRI is accessible to me (less than 3 hours away both options) - my concerns are balancing risk to my horse and best use of funds to obtain a more accurate diagnosis.

Anyone have anything soothing to say about putting a horse under for a non-standing MRI? I think A&M requires 2 overnight stays. I would definitely be drinking heavily the entire time.

[Beethoven]

If you’re going to spend the money on an MRI, then do the 3 Tesla with general anesthesia as the pictures are far better. We CT horses and use contrast at my practice instead of MRI. It is less anesthesia time and we can do both limbs. CT for soft tissues is surprising not readily done although that may be changing.

[Ganesha]

Just adding that I’m using durasole on his soles and keratex on his walls in case I end up pulling his rear shoes (or all shoes) soon.

I should hear back from 2nd vet tomorrow or next day - sure is hard to wait. At least he looks perky and happy and sound at the walk. If I had to wait with an obviously limping horse I would be losing my mind.

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=Comegaitby;8701216]
I hauled him to Fairfield Equine in Newtown CT. There were closer options to me but I was advised it was worth the trip for the expertise in reading the MRI. It was a standing MRI and the image quality was great and we got very clear results. I’m not sure I would have done it as readily I couldn’t have done the standing. The cost was really quite reasonable and more than worth it in the long run (that said, my horse is insured and they paid 50%).[/QUOTE]

Thanks, but what did you do to get the horse sound??? That’s the $64,000 question…!!!

[Cat_Tap]

One of my horses was diagnosed with navicular changes 6 years ago. Went through two rounds of Tildren. The first time he was good for a year. The second time didn’t make much difference. Tried all kinds of shoes, wedges and pads. Because of the pads it was hard to keep shoes on. His feet weren’t great. Finally gave up, pulled his shoes and retired him.

A couple of years ago I heard of Previcox. Current vet on new x-rays didn’t think his navicular changes were significant. Now, barefoot and on Previcox he appears sound. Sometimes he is a bit ouchy but he has thin soles and flat feet.

I can take him hacking. If he is uncomfortable he forgets about it as he likes to hack. He is 16 now and not really expected to do much. I do have another horse of my own to ride plus one I am schooling for a friend. (though I haven’t done much of that lately).

[crimsonsky]

[QUOTE=LarkspurCO;8699367]
This is not as dramatic on screen as I recalled but you can get an idea of how the hoof changed from the start to the end of this shoeing cycle. The heel grew up:

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/hfournier/Tanager/hooves/TanagerDec1-Feb1-09-2.jpg[/QUOTE]

please help me understand - how is the heel better in the second/after photo?

[Jungle_Monkey]

[QUOTE=Ganesha;8701295]
Thanks for the info. I don’t have insurance, but would consider and can an MRI. I’ve done a bit of research. There are two options near me:

Standing MRI at Elgin Vet Hospital
http://elginveterinaryhospital.com/equine-division/services-equine/hallmarq-standing-mri/

Texas A&M - regular MRI with general anesthesia
They have a 3 Tesla MRI.

Putting him under scares the cr@p out of me, but I think if I had to go under somewhere, Texas A&M vet school would be one of the best places for it. However, given the expense, I would want the best images I could get.

Also, I don’t know if it is true, but I heard that they hoist the horse onto the table by the legs, and there is possibly some risk of strain or damage in doing that.

So, MRI is accessible to me (less than 3 hours away both options) - my concerns are balancing risk to my horse and best use of funds to obtain a more accurate diagnosis.

Anyone have anything soothing to say about putting a horse under for a non-standing MRI? I think A&M requires 2 overnight stays. I would definitely be drinking heavily the entire time.[/QUOTE]

I opted to pay more and haul longer for a standing MRI because I didn’t feel the risks of a general were worth it for MY horse. The images were good and he was diagnosed with a DDFT injury at P2 and navicular bone along with some other milder injuries. He has been on stall rest since diagnosis October 2015 with hand walking and is now sound under saddle at 40 minutes walk and 5 minutes of trot. We got lucky. Follow up standing MRI in March 2016 showed good quality healing with only slightly irregular collagen fibres and minimal scar tissue. Well worth getting the MRI instead of dicking around wonder what was wrong and not giving the injury proper healing time. You have no idea what is going on in there. We originally thought only a mild strain some where. Thank goodness I opted for the MRI or he would have been done. Good luck.

[Ganesha]

Ok, it is becoming clearer that an MRI of some type is probably in my horse’s very near future. My question to all, especially those who may work in a vet hospital - have you seen any joint, ligament or tendon damage in the process of hoisting the horse’s body by the legs onto the table? It seems like a good way to wrench a joint.

I spoke to TAMU on the phone about this - they said they’ve never had any issues or trouble with this.

TAMU is closer to me than the facility that offers standing MRI. I can get both feet done for $1,600, plus $67 a night board for each night he has to stay (Probably not more than one night if we can get him in by 8am).

[TBFAN]

Ganesha - Sent you a PM

[Beethoven]

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/ups-and-downs-equine-mri-veterinary-medicine?id=&pageID=1&sk=&date=

Article comparing all the MRI…

No, actually, we find some horses being laid down and hoisted up by their legs is theraputic and the horses is sound after. Think about it, relaxed muscles and being hung upside down. It’s like the ultimate chiro adjustment…just kidding. We seriously do joke about the therapeutic CT scans that we have done.

[LarkspurCO]

[QUOTE=crimsonsky;8701945]
please help me understand - how is the heel better in the second/after photo?[/QUOTE]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B39vI8RGIbeqbFp4N2dLbGNKNGc/view?usp=sharing

The hairline is beginning to straighten up rather then curling downward at the heel. The heel is not running forward and getting crushed under the hoof as it had been. There is more vertical heel depth, and the toe is not shooting forward.

It was the start of reorienting the hoof from this unhealthy distortion (same hoof after I had pulled shoes and trimmed a lot of heel back, but prior to corrective shoeing):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B39vI8RGIbeqMHBQNnRxRUJHTEE/view?usp=sharing

This is the right front at the same time and then a later a photo showing much healthier form:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B39vI8RGIbeqUm1zXzZYZTE1WW8/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B39vI8RGIbeqZjY3a09JX25ZbFE/view?usp=sharing

More importantly, the horse was able to go back to work again almost immediately after getting the first set of roller motion shoes. He was very lame before that.

[Jungle_Monkey]

[QUOTE=Beethoven;8703063]
http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/ups-and-downs-equine-mri-veterinary-medicine?id=&pageID=1&sk=&date=

Article comparing all the MRI…

No, actually, we find some horses being laid down and hoisted up by their legs is theraputic and the horses is sound after. Think about it, relaxed muscles and being hung upside down. It’s like the ultimate chiro adjustment…just kidding. We seriously do joke about the therapeutic CT scans that we have done.[/QUOTE]

While I was not a fan of the idea of my horse being hoisted up by his legs it was more the fear of what could happen when he was coming out of the general that made me go with the standing MRI.