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Help me choose a Tb stallion for my mare

Racing
#1

I’m thinking of breeding my 5yr old 16.2 Tb mare by Devil His Due/out of a Mt.Livermoore to…I’m in Pa…I ride and show hunters…so I’d like to choose a stallion that if it doesn’t make a great racehorse could always fall back on being a good riding/show hunter

For it to be a Pa bred…do I have to choose a stallion that stands in Pa? Or as long as my mare foals in pa -it’s considered a pa bred?!(she herself was bred/foaled/raced in pa)

I like Partners’s Hero off the top of my head! He’s in West Virginia I believe…I also liked Lido Palace…but he’s no longer in the USA I don’t think…and I’ve heard good things about Duckhorn too?!?

Here’s her pedigree:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/ashleys+due

Any suggestions greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance

#2

First of all, you need set a budget on how much you can afford to spend on a stud fee, in addition to all the other care you’re going to need (vet, board, etc). Once you’ve established that, it will be easier to select a stallion that will work for you.

Second, is to always remember that getting a horse to the track can be a daunting task, and even then they may never start, or win, and it is a costly endeavor to get them there. It can cost anywhere from $30-40k+ to keep a horse in training for a single year.

Third, while you mentioned that if racing should not work out and you want to be able to retrain it for another suitable career, I am assuming you do not plan to sell the foal as a racing prospect? If at any point, you think you might offer the horse for sale, selecting a stallion who has good marketability in the sales ring is a must.

To be a PA-bred, you must meet one of the following conditions set forth by the PHBA:

  • For foals of 2008 and thereafter, the dam of the foal resided continuously in Pennsylvania since October 1 of the year of conception through foaling.

  • The dam of the foal was purchased at a public sale after October 1 of the year of conception and brought into Pennsylvania within 14 days of the date of purchase and remained continuously through foaling. During the year of foaling, the foal or its dam spent at least ninety (90) days in the state. MUST BE A COMPLETED PUBLIC SALE - NOT AN RNA (Reserve Not Attained) or a private transaction after the public sale.

  • The dam of the foal was bred to a stallion standing in Pennsylvania which was registered with the Pennsylvania Horse Breeders Association as a Pennsylvania stallion during the breeding season of the year of foaling, and said dam of the foal resided in the state for at least ninety (90) consecutive days during which foaling occurred.

Now for stallions you have mentioned…
Partner’s Hero is standing at Castle Rock Farm in Unionville, PA. $2,000 fee.
Lido Palace was exported to Peru.
Duckhorn is now standing in Illinois for $2,000.

Pennsylvania has improved it’s quality of stallions over the years and the more nationally known sires Smarty Jones, Silver Train, Snow Ridge, Delaware Township, Petionville, Offlee Wild, Medallist, Jump Start, E Dubai, and Albert the Great are now taking up residence in the state.

You might find the Blood Horse’s PA leading sires list helpful:
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/thoroughbred-breeding/sire-lists/general/Pennsylvania

From a sport horse perspective, Harry the Hat (by Seattle Slew), Formal Dinner (by Well Decorated), and Ameri Valay (by Carnivalay) come to mind.

As for your mare, she has some nice names in her pedigree, but nothing that really makes her stand out as being a potential producer. You have to go to her second dam to find any quality, as she had a couple of stakes winners - Puerto Rican G1 winner Launch Sequence (by the Mr. Prospector son, Cape Canaveral), and G3-placed Ghostly Gate (by Silver Ghost). Under the third dam, Hobby, you have her daughter Just A Game, who was the champion turf mare of 1980. IMO, I think you’d just be wasting time and money with her…

#3

I vote none. She really is not even remotely broodmare quality. Sorry.

#4

What about my other mare…Complete Ray who is by Rock Point out of A Completed mare

http://www.pedigreequery.com/complete+ray

Also…please forgive my ignorance about the racing pedigrees…but don’t the stallions count for anything ?? Or only the dams? Because Devil His Due has produced many big graded stakes money horses…as well as Partner’s Hero…and really you could have the best bred horse in the world and all the money to back it up…and it could very easily never amount to anything as a racehorse…look at the abundance of ottb’s that don’t make it…and look at all these underdogs that were nobody’s that surprise everyone and win the Kentucky derby

Laurierace what makes her pedigree not even remotely broodmare quality?

#5

As a hunter person, I love Rock Point, and your mare was most definitely bred from sporting lines with no racing influence in the family for several generations. Complete Ray went to post 3 times, and managed a 2nd place finish in her final start at Pine Mountain - not being familiar with that venue, I’m assuming she started in hunt races. Her first three dams were unraced, and her fourth, Miss Fritz Wheel, never managed a win in 12 starts. If she’s a nice mare, just enjoy her, but there’s absolutely nothing about her pedigree or record that suggests she is a good prospect for racehorse production.

While the stallion does bring a lot to the table and may be the first thing people notice when looking at a pedigree, the very next thing they look at is what the female family has produced, and if it’s very “light” (meaning little or no blacktype/stakes wins) as is the case with your mares, they’re not usually viewed upon as good investments for producing racehorses.

While you are correct that some great racehorses have been produced from non-prominent or relatively obscure lines, the chances of that can be a million to one. You increase your chances of producing a superior racehorse by starting with a solid foundation that has proven to produce winners. A lot of factors go into making a racehorse, among them pedigree, training, environment, health and care, etc. In very rare cases, some horses are just born great and can overcome anything that is thrown at them.

There are a lot of mares out there with better pedigrees at affordable prices right now.

#6

Ok …I see what you are saying…thank you for taking the time to explain!

#7

The second one is even less of a race broodmare prospect than the first. Think of it as buying a lottery ticket. Would you want a lottery ticket with a one in a zillion chance of winning something or a 60-70% chance of winning something? If you breed a horse who wasn’t much of a race horse whose mother didn’t race at all chances are you are going to get another one who isn’t much of a race horse or who couldn’t run at all. Take the money you were going to spend on the stud fee and mare care for the next year and claim a 5k claimer. At least that horse will have made it to the races already.

#8

Laurierace…my Ashley’s Due mare already made it to the races and earned $41,000

#9

I actually just did some research and my mare got an A+ nick rating with Eternal Star… And an A nick rating with : More Smoke, Medallist, Cat Thief, Deputy Storm, Emperor Tiberious, Etched, Lionhearted, Mikimotos’s Mojo, Talent Search, and Wiseman’s Ferry

I admit I know very little about racing… But if she were so un-worth it as a racing broodmare mare-I can’t imagine that she’d get an A+ nicking with anybody…let alone the 10 that she got an A with??

#10

Those nicking programs are basically a marketing tool. They’re based on very limited information and not meant to be taken that seriously. Plus, it wasn’t your actual mare that received the A+ nick, it was her sireline–or sometimes her sire’s sireline–that nicked with the sireline of the other stallion. (that’s what I mean about limited information.)

With respect to your question above about Devil His Due being a good sire and doesn’t that count for anything? Well yes, sure. But in this case, you’re not trying to produce offspring by Devil His Due. In this breeding, he would be the Broodmare Sire–a job in which he has not excelled.

Yes good racehorses can come from anywhere but, as others have told you, it will cost many many thousands of dollars to find out if what you’ve produced has any racing ability. If you’re going to gamble that much money, you’d be better off stacking the odds in your favor and starting off with better genetic material.

#11

Ashleys Due raced 25 times over the course of 25 months–good for her for being so sound! That’s the good news. The less good news: it probably cost her owners twice as much to race her for those two years than she earned. Her average earnings per race were $1,700.

She also spent the majority of her career running for a claiming tag of less than $10,000, another reason why she is not considered to be a particularly successful racemare.

#12

Unless I’m wrong, and I could very well be, Ashley’s Due has Luggeen as her 5th dam, and Luggeen was the dam of Wily Trout, the sire of Chris Bartle’s 7/8th’s TB Olympic dressage horse, Wily Trout. While this has nothing whatsoever to do with racing, it certainly would add to the mare’s credentials for sport. Wily Trout, the sire, also produced an FEI level eventing mare named Punchestown Lady, who went to Germany and produced a Trakehner stallion named Parforce by Habicht. Parforce had quite a few FEI eventing get.

Invermore was by one of the great sons of Umidwar–Anwar. I know Anwar has WB descendants, who, IIRC, were jumpers. He also happens to have been Red Rum’s damsire. :slight_smile:

Hobby was a pretty good mare, with a stakes placing and she was the dam of 2 stakes winners.

At The Gate was the dam of two horses who earned more than 200k during their 18 race racing careers. Plus she was pretty tough with more than a few starts.

So this is not a completely bust female family for racing. :slight_smile: IMO, which is worth very little, this mare has a lovely pedigree, a reasonably strong female family, and was a winner herself. Someone liked her dam’s history and family enough to pay for decent sires for her foals.

I’ve been reading Matriarchs and in most of those mare families, there were daughters who were not good racers themselves but did produce good race horses.

#13

Oh ok Laurie B…that makes sense…and yes she is very sound god bless her soul! …she also wtc, swaps leads, and jumps little courses…she’s just too hot to be a hunter-which is what I do …but eventing or jumpers may suit her better! I was just thinking making a race baby out of her…it’s fun to dream I guess

#14

Thanks Vineyridge!

#15

Concetta who I know…has a farm, good vet support, has foaled @ home previously, has a Vet Tech education and is financially solvent. she also has the right facilities and support of her spouse and family.

While Ashley may not have a major or even minor black type pedigree why on earth are your raining on her parade.

This is not an ignorant backyard pseudo breeder with no property who can’t or won’t be able to provide quality feed and care.

She has every intention of keeping the horse if it has NO racing ability.

This sport is rift w/ ignorant crap who have well bred horses and they never do right by them…

Why rain on someone’s parade who will do it right from start to finish inject a small amount of $$ into the sport and enjoy themselves immensly, bring family friends and business associates out to the track to see their baby run…its not always about the win photo but the fun along the way win place or show!!!

Concetta do the Brisnet catalogue style on Askley see what her 2 dams have done.

All those Werks Nick stallions are a base line, see who their sires are, you will see a common line of breeding linking them. Only sires who subscribe to that service will show up. Some research will be needed to see what sire lines compliment your mare, and do not discount conformation and mind.

There are people on here who will help you…

#16

THANKS VINEY…You ROCK!!!

#17

She can breed her mare to anyone she likes, but I can not in good conscience recommend someone breed a mare for racing that has no business being a racing broodmare. It’s not that I think the foal will be abused or thrown on the slaughter truck. I think there is a very good chance she will lose tens of thousands of dollars if she breeds either of those mares to anyone for racing. I see no reason to paint a fake rosy picture just because the person is nice or is a good care taker.

#18

Thanks Judybigredpony! Very well said…and that is exactly what I would do if it didn’t amount to anything as a racehorse!

#19

Ashley’s Due

Ashley’s Due broke her maiden in the mud straight 3yr old fillies $12,500-$10,500 at Philly… She never came close again despite trying at the bottom at some of the cheapest tracks. If she was running sound then she has no talent at all. She could not even win NW2L at PENN for $5,000. She trailed the field quite a few times.

http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=Horse&refno=8001563&registry=T

Track Date Race Race Type Finish Video
Penn National 10/4/2011 8 Claiming 5
Charles Town 9/15/2011 2 Claiming 6
Penn National 9/3/2011 9 Claiming 6
Penn National 8/20/2011 2 Claiming 11
Penn National 7/16/2011 1 Claiming 8
Penn National 7/11/2011 6 Claiming 5
Penn National 6/25/2011 4 Claiming 7
Penn National 6/11/2011 2 Claiming 5
Penn National 5/24/2011 4 Claiming 5
Parx Racing 2/16/2011 2 Claiming 9
Parx Racing 1/16/2011 6 Claiming 11
Philadelpha Park 6/15/2010 10 Claiming 9
Philadelpha Park 5/28/2010 9 Claiming 5
Philadelpha Park 4/27/2010 7 Maiden Claiming 1
Philadelpha Park 4/3/2010 10 Maiden Claiming 2
Philadelpha Park 3/15/2010 10 Maiden Claiming 3
Philadelpha Park 2/21/2010 4 Maiden Claiming 6
Philadelpha Park 1/30/2010 2 Maiden Claiming 2
Philadelpha Park 1/9/2010 2 Maiden Claiming 3
Philadelpha Park 12/4/2009 2 Maiden Claiming 4
Philadelpha Park 11/14/2009 4 Maiden Claiming 7
Philadelpha Park 10/24/2009 1 Maiden Claiming 3
Delaware Park 10/7/2009 4 Maiden Claiming 5
Laurel Park 9/17/2009 9 Maiden Special Weight 8
Delaware Park 8/24/2009 6 Maiden Special Weight

I hope she exceeds herself and gives you something that can run a little.

#20

Can you spell…GREEN MONKEY…:slight_smile:

I had a stakes winner many times over here who was modestly breed ran 60+ times made 600K retired sound to a sports horse career @ 6 and his dam never bred another decent horse and her dam bred dreak…it does happen…its more important to know when to quit for the horse and you…Not to never even try…

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