Help me choose a Tb stallion for my mare

[Twisted_River]

[QUOTE=starlitlaughter;6352387]
There are a lot of mares out there with better pedigrees at affordable prices right now.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=judybigredpony;6353093]Concetta who I know…has a farm, good vet support, has foaled @ home previously, has a Vet Tech education and is financially solvent. she also has the right facilities and support of her spouse and family…

This is not an ignorant backyard pseudo breeder with no property who can’t or won’t be able to provide quality feed and care.

She has every intention of keeping the horse if it has NO racing ability.

This sport is rift w/ ignorant crap who have well bred horses and they never do right by them…

Why rain on someone’s parade who will do it right from start to finish inject a small amount of $$ into the sport and enjoy themselves immensly, bring family friends and business associates out to the track to see their baby run…its not always about the win photo but the fun along the way win place or show!!![/QUOTE]

Why not adopt an OTTB that is very well bred, for racing, and breed her? Sounds like Concetta could maybe offer a great home to a horse that needs one, and breed a winning racehorse too!

[vineyridge]

Ashley’s Due has a half sister with an SSI of 1.33. One is average, so this sister was slightly better than average. Her dam, Ashley At The Gate, had an SSI of 0.91 or slightly less than average. Ashley At The Gate had a half sister, Ghostly Gate, who was a black type winner and raced from 2-4. Ghostly Gate raced mostly in Minnesota, where she had quite a few stakes wins, but her G3 win was in a $250k race at Hawthorne when she was four. Another half sister of Ashley at The Gate, Launch Sequence, was a black type winner who raced mostly in Puerto Rico. She had 18 starts, won 12, placed in 2 and was third in 2. That means she was in the money in 16 of her 18 starts.

Hobby’s first three foals all got black type. Two winners and one placer over the pond. Her black type daughter, Just A Game, came over here and raced till six. Just a Game won 391k back in the 1970’s. She won a couple of G2s in the UK, and then came here and at 4 won the Diana, the Matchmaker, The Flower Bowl, the New York Handicap, The Orchid and another one (The Suwanee ?) and was second in the Man O’War. At 6 she won the Le Prevoyante.

This is from the APR

So why would anyone think that this mare family is worse than chopped liver?

[judybigredpony]

Viney like I said you Rock…all it takes is a few minues of good research using tools like Brisnet!!!
I did advise concetta to do this…

[Flying_Fox]

http://www.calvadosbloodstock.com/2010/05/truly-successful-breeder-federico-tesio.html

[Concetta]

Viney, Flying Fox, and Judybigredpony you all ROCK!! Now that’s what I’m talking about!!

What a great and very inspirational article by the way!!!

Thank you All for backing me up…I knew I wasn’t crazy in regards to my girl’s pedigree!!! And than you so much for taking the time to research on my mare and explain it to me…very much appreciated!!!

[Andrew]

Good Advice

There are several experts across the board on COTH and LaurieRace is one of them!!

These boards are a great resouce and educational tool for the less experienced. LaruieRace is direct and to the point and doesn’t post just to give you the answers you want to hear. Her points are sound and came from years of experience. She calls a spade a spade as much as GM does!!

Thank you Laurie for your brutal honesty… it’s so refreshing!!!

[Concetta]

Andrew…so are you saying Vineyridge’s research that she found on my mare then is incorrect??

[Andrew]

Concetta… absolutley not… I’m just saying that Laurie doesn’t sugar coat things… not flaming anyone whatsoever! :-))

[Concetta]

Well it seems to me then that Laurierace can’t be that much of an “expert” if she couldnt see what Vineyridge so easily pointed out to me in regards to my mare’s pedigree on the dam’s side??

[Hunter_s_Rest]

For gosh sakes - she likes that mare and wants to breed her.
I have 2 lovely fillies by a nice former NY stallion now in Pa. who is covering (a few) Tb race mares and (more) Tb and Wb sport mares.
He is the ‘leading sire by starts!!’ in NY but really not that successful a race sire.
Yes … that said … lightning could strike, but the way I look at it – I want Tb horses, regardless. If they run, great. If they 'chase, great. But either way, after whatever track career (if there even is one) they will be exceptional athletes.
This stallion, Stanislavsky, is regularly producing big, good looking, sound, easy, senisible solid sorts. I’d go back to him in an instant.
Inexpensive to get to, near you (google him), good motility, and a gentle breeding stallion who won’t scare or hurt your mare.
Go for it.
Forget the pedigree- go with type. You like the mare? Find a nice solid stallion and make yourself a nice baby. You’re not part of the problem if you’re breeding purposefully.
: )

[vineyridge]

On the whole, this is a slow maturing, turfy mare family. Ashley’s Due’s more successful sister was more successful on turf. Her sire and damsire were also slow maturing with very long racing careers. Most of the good horses in her pedigree and family did their winning at 4 and older. It’s a sound family and it seems to be a turfy family. American racing doesn’t favor sound and turfy families these days.

This would seem to be the time for a speed injection if one were breeding this family for racing. Something on the lines of a (sadly deceased) Two Punch who would also keep the sporting quality. This is the classic European racing model–soundness and stamina on the bottom and speed on the top. Milers are usually used for speed in their breeding for classics. If it were I, I’d go looking for a good miler and bring in his speed.

I would suggest anyone who says that only the best racing mares should be bred should not only read about Tesio but also Edward Bowen’s Matriachs I and II. More than half the mares he profiles who started dynasties were either track failures (La Troienne and Somethingroyal) or unraced. Their daughters who carried on the lines were also often track failures or unraced. The one constant is that they were well bred, and Ashley’s Due is about as well bred as you can get to not have the most fashionable sire names close up.

Just an odd history note–Devil His Due is from the female family of Clemence. There has been a recent genetics paper published that says Bend Or, the sire and Derby winner, was not really the registered Bend Or but another Chestnut colt of the same year by the same sire from the same breeder whose name was Tadcaster. The registered Tadcaster (Bend Or) was out of Clemence.

Noble Jay was the damsire line for Gem Twist, just as an aside. Hero’s Honor was a half to the KY Derby winner, Sea Hero, sire of the sport horse TB sire, Sea Accounts, and was bred by Paul Mellon.

[Concetta]

Thanks Hunters Rest I agree!

[LaurieB]

I don’t believe that anyone mentioned chopped liver.

And of course if Concetta wants desperately to breed a racehorse from that mare, then by all means she should do so. It’s her money and her time that will be spent in the endeavor.

What I and several other posters were trying to do is simply to inject a little (finanacial) reality into the situation–which is obviously neither needed or wanted.

As per Viney’s analysis of the family: it consists of horses that are/were successful racing in Minnesota, Puerto Rico, and in the 1970s. If she were my mare, those observations would not excite me but I’m glad they validate what Concetta wanted to hear.

Just an FYI, TB breeding sheds close at the end of the month (sometimes before) so if you’re planning to breed this year, you’ll need to move fast.

[Hunter_s_Rest]

The one I know intimately will breed well into summer b/c of his sport mares.

[jennywho]

I think the controversy here comes from two completely different viewpoints. As someone who breeds with the primary intention of getting a horse to the races, I would take one look at your mares catalog page and sy no thanks. It costs way too much to raise a baby and get it to the races or sales to take that kind of chance.

That being said, vineyridge did point out all the good points of your mares pedigree. If she’s a nice mare and you’ve got the funds and patience go ahead and take a chance. You have a back up plan which is good.

No one is trying to be mean just realistic and from a racing tb breeder your mares pedigree is not commercial. She can still produce a nice horse, just not a risk I personally would take.

Good luck, the pa breeders and owners awards are fabulous and I hope you update this thread in five years with a major stakes winner.

[animaldoc]

[QUOTE=Andrew;6353661]
There are several experts across the board on COTH and LaurieRace is one of them!![/QUOTE]
And won’t someone please ask Laurie how her recent trip to Devon went? She might know a little about race and sport horse breeding…

[Catsdorule-sigh]

Two issues here?

IMHO, both arguments have some merit. The mare has some relatives who did something at smaller tracks. What has been pointed out is that does not make her commercial and does not really indicate you’re going to achieve much more than that breeding for racing. You’re breeding for small tracks and small rewards, if said rewards will even cover expenses. Exceptions do happen but you don’t breed for the exception. If the mare has exceptional bloodlines, then you might consider contacting one of the bigger farms with some of the bigger stallions who might guide you in the best cross- I’m talking Kentucky. If the mare is that good, then find out what current experts have to say. Even if you breed for state purposes, you need to know what types of crosses MIGHT increase your odds. And even though there is some family success, back a ways, there are numerous examples of one member of a certain cross being solid gold, on the track or for breeding, and the brothers and sisters solid duds.

If you’re looking to use the result down the road for sport, then you’ve got an entirely different set of criteria to consider. What works in TB land for sport probably won’t make a real race horse and vice versa.

Breed for racing and odds that you get a mediocre racer and mediocre sport prospect, or breed for sport and perhaps increase the odds that that TB will have some opportunities and talents suited to sport?

[vineyridge]

That’s why I suggested looking at a miler. From all my research the stallions who have been golden for sport in the modern era have tended to be milers. The research covers a period of about one hundred years. Plus, you would have the speed infusion that these mares need.

[Laurierace]

Ok on second thought I vote Bernardini.

[vineyridge]

Genetic diversity is important in the preservation of the qualities of the thoroughbred that make it the original and ultimate Sport Horse–sport in all its forms, including router racing and chasing. If everyone only bred what is the most successful today in dirt track sprints, other qualities besides pure speed will vanish over time. Those other qualities are not highlyvalued in American racing today, especially at the “elite” level. They are valued in much of the rest of the world.