Help me choose a Tb stallion for my mare

[Drvmb1ggl3]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;6354151]
Genetic diversity is important in the preservation of the qualities of the thoroughbred that make it the original and ultimate Sport Horse–sport in all its forms, including router racing and chasing. [/QUOTE]

That where “Breed Preservation Society” and breeding actual racehorses diverge. The former is a lovely cuddly intellectual exercise and is fine if you are a multi-zillionaire who can afford to throw piles of money in a hole. The latter is what most people have in the real world contend with.

If everyone only bred what is the most successful today in dirt track sprints, other qualities besides pure speed will vanish over time. Those other qualities are not highlyvalued in American racing today, especially at the “elite” level. They are valued in much of the rest of the world.

That would be backwards. The “elite” level races in the US are 10f on dirt. To go one mile and a quarter on dirt in the style of American racing (sustained speed from the off) requires a good deal of stamina (as many Europeans have found out to their surprise when they take a shot in the BC Classic and even the KY Derby).
Where stamina is not really needed is in day to day US racing where 90%+ of all races are (and always have been) run at 5f to 8.5f.
However, take a look at the leading sire lists and almost everyone of those sires was a horse that excelled on dirt at 10f. And ask any breeder what race they would love to breed the winner of and the answer will invariably be the KY Derby and the BC Classic.

[vineyridge]

Just show me a US sire other than AP Indy who has done much of anything over a mile and a quarter. The Preakness is even shorter. The kind of horse that could have won a two mile dirt race (like the old JC Gold Cup) doesn’t stand in the US. Two mile races are not so rare over the pond. More than a few basic milers are able to stretch that extra quarter, but would crash and burn if they were asked to go longer.

I’ve read that nowadays most of the 2000 Guinea and Derby horses don’t even try the St. Leger at a mile and three quarters. The Derby is a mile and a half, isn’t it? Here we think of Belmont winners as plodders–except AP Indy. We have nothing longer than the Belmont for three year olds and almost nothing longer for older horses except chasers.

Mr. P was a sprinter; Storm Cat was a miler; Giant’s Causeway is basically a miler as was Sadler’s Wells. I can’t think of a true staying sire in the General Sire List.

How many of our elite Derby horses have gone on to win the Belmont in the last fifteen or twenty years, even if they didn’t win the Preakness?

[Laurierace]

Post ANY pedigree and you can find someone who could run and or produce if you go back far enough. Oh look! Northern Dancer in the 4 generation, so what if it is harder to find a horse without that in their pedigree than with it, the foal will definitely win the triple crown!
God forbid I try to be helpful and save her some money and heartache. Now I am a big meanie. Breed to whoever you like, I don’t really care at this point.

[Zevida]

@vineyridge;6354295

Just show me a US sire other than AP Indy who has done much of anything over a mile and a quarter. The Preakness is even shorter.

Birdstone won the Belmont and has sired Kentucky Derby winner Mine That Bird and Belmont winner Summer Bird.

Thunder Gulch won the Belmont and sired Belmont winner Point Given.

Empire Maker won the Belmont and leads the 2012 stallion leaderboard.

You were saying?

[vineyridge]

Empire Maker may lead the General Sires List, but the racing industry had so much faith in him as a sire that he was sold to Japan. One Bodemeister does not a commercial stallion make.

Birdstone had the Triple Crown in his first year as a sire. He’s not even ON the General Sire List of the top 150 money earning stallions in 2012.

It doesn’t take much of a stretch to think that a Belmont winner could sire a Belmont winner. But that doesn’t make them popular and/or good Commercial sires.

The actual fact is that winners of the 3yo Classics in America rarely make good sires–and the Belmont seems to be the kiss of death.

[judybigredpony]

[QUOTE=Hunter’s Rest;6353681]
For gosh sakes - she likes that mare and wants to breed her.
I have 2 lovely fillies by a nice former NY stallion now in Pa. who is covering (a few) Tb race mares and (more) Tb and Wb sport mares.
He is the ‘leading sire by starts!!’ in NY but really not that successful a race sire.
Yes … that said … lightning could strike, but the way I look at it – I want Tb horses, regardless. If they run, great. If they 'chase, great. But either way, after whatever track career (if there even is one) they will be exceptional athletes.
This stallion, Stanislavsky, is regularly producing big, good looking, sound, easy, senisible solid sorts. I’d go back to him in an instant.
Inexpensive to get to, near you (google him), good motility, and a gentle breeding stallion who won’t scare or hurt your mare.
Go for it.
Forget the pedigree- go with type. You like the mare? Find a nice solid stallion and make yourself a nice baby. You’re not part of the problem if you’re breeding purposefully.
: )[/QUOTE]

I have sold several of 'stan’s" get and can vouch for how absolutely amazing they are…superior minds, like to work, sound, pretty and athletic as h*ll…plus his owner’s daughter rode one of the all time leading show hunters in the nation and I am pretty sure they will be showing some “Stan” babies pretty soon…

[Drvmb1ggl3]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;6354295]
Just show me a US sire other than AP Indy who has done much of anything over a mile and a quarter. [/QUOTE]

Stupid question as there is only one G1 race run in the US on dirt past 10f, so you have no idea how many would do well at that distance. They only have one opportunity in their lives to do it.
What I said was at 10f. Look up the current leading sire list, most of them were proven 10f dirt horses at the G1 level.

The Preakness is even shorter. The kind of horse that could have won a two mile dirt race (like the old JC Gold Cup) doesn’t stand in the US.

Baloney. The horses that won the JCGC when it was two miles were not two mile specialists. They spent the rest of the year running at 8f, 9f, 10f, just like today’s horses do. It’s distance was an anachronism even back then. If the JCGC reverted back to 2m it’s not like the current crop of horses would reach the 10f pole and all fall down. There would be a winner, just like there was in the past.
The same is true of the Melbourne Cup every year, most every horse that runs in it is running at 7-12f the rest of the year.

Two mile races are not so rare over the pond. More than a few basic milers are able to stretch that extra quarter, but would crash and burn if they were asked to go longer.

Baloney again. Any horse can run, 2 miles, even 3 mile or 4 miles. They wouldn’t fall down. Just look at American Steeplechasers, they are almost all invariably converted flat racers. They can be trained to run 2m4f, because except for a tiny handful of horses that were imported from IRE or NZ, every one else they are running against is a converted flat racer. Now, if you shipped them to the Cheltenham festival in Mar and had them run against purpose bred Irish and French NH horses, they would be out of their element.
The point is, that running 2 miles, 3 miles a 100 miles in and of itself is irrelevant, it’s what you are running against.

I’ve read that nowadays most of the 2000 Guinea and Derby horses don’t even try the St. Leger at a mile and three quarters.

The Derby is a mile and a half, isn’t it?

Surely you don’t need to ask that question?

Here we think of Belmont winners as plodders–except AP Indy. We have nothing longer than the Belmont for three year olds and almost nothing longer for older horses except chasers.

Mr. P was a sprinter; Storm Cat was a miler; Giant’s Causeway is basically a miler as was Sadler’s Wells.

Surely to God you are not doubting Sadler’s Wells as a stamina influence???
This the same Sadlers Wells that is responsible for…

8 of the last 13 winners of the Ascot Gold Cup (greatest staying race on the planet)

The last 3 Champion Hurdle winners.

Sired greatest hurlder of the last 30 years, Istabraq

Sired this year’s Gold Cup winner at Cheltenham and grandsired a couple more.

Grandsired several Grand National winners.

We won’t mention how many 12 G1 winners he has sired and grandsired.

Btw, Giant’s Causeway sired the winner of the Ascot Gold Cup the year before last.

I can’t think of a true staying sire in the General Sire List.

What the hell do you mean by that? What is a “true staying sire” in the American context?

How many of our elite Derby horses have gone on to win the Belmont in the last fifteen or twenty years, even if they didn’t win the Preakness?

“Elite” Derby or 10f horses that won or placed in the Belmont.
Summer Bird
Afleet Alex
Curlin’
Empire Maker
Afleet Alex
Birdstone
Point Given
Lemon Drop Kid

[judybigredpony]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;6354307]
Post ANY pedigree and you can find someone who could run and or produce if you go back far enough. Oh look! Northern Dancer in the 4 generation, so what if it is harder to find a horse without that in their pedigree than with it, the foal will definitely win the triple crown!
God forbid I try to be helpful and save her some money and heartache. Now I am a big meanie. Breed to whoever you like, I don’t really care at this point.[/QUOTE]

Then why did you slap her simple…instead of just helping her do some research…or asking if she had the place, space, experiance and commitment…you know Laurie she has VERY good hunter’s the kind who lead @ WEF and has made and sold several quality OTTB.
She just wants to make a nice foal and see if they can have fun w/ it on the track, if not then it can go to the shows, not every horse wins every race and there are more claimers than stakes horses…

[LaurieB]

@vineyridge;6354380

Empire Maker may lead the General Sires List, but the racing industry had so much faith in him as a sire that he was sold to Japan. One Bodemeister does not a commercial stallion make.

It would be more impressive if you used actual facts to support your theories rather than simply making unfounded statements.

Empire Maker was extremely well supported by the racing industry. The fact that he was sold to Japan had nothing to do with his commercial value here. The majority of his stud career in the U.S. he stood for a six figure stud fee and he filled his book every year. Additionally there have been numerous U.S. based offers to buy him back since he was sold.

I’m sorry that Bodemeister is the only offspring of his that you’ve heard of. Empire Maker also sired:

Royal Delta (G1)
Pioneerof the Nile (G1)
Country Star (G1)
Acoma (G1)
Grace Hall (G1)
Mushka (G1)
Icon Project (G1)
and recent Black Eyed Susan winner, In Lingerie (G2) among many many others.

[Laurierace]

[QUOTE=judybigredpony;6354391]
Then why did you slap her simple…instead of just helping her do some research…or asking if she had the place, space, experiance and commitment…you know Laurie she has VERY good hunter’s the kind who lead @ WEF and has made and sold several quality OTTB.
She just wants to make a nice foal and see if they can have fun w/ it on the track, if not then it can go to the shows, not every horse wins every race and there are more claimers than stakes horses…[/QUOTE]

Why?? If they pulled A P Indy or even Storm Cat out of cold storage her mare is unlikely to have a foal of any consequence but I am supposed to scour PA for a cheap ass stallion that might fit the bill? Nobody breeds for claimers. They breed for stakes horses and settle for claimers if that is what they end up with. If you are breeding for claimers you might as well breed cattle. I am sorry you don’t like what I have to say but I feel like I am being a better friend to her than you are and I don’t even know who she is! I don’t need a friend to tell me to flush 40k down the toilet.

Edited to add. I can get you Rick Abbott’s number if you like and he can explain why he was going out on a limb when he created her in the first place and breeding her would be financial suicide. Get it from the horse’s mouth so to speak.

[Florida_Fan]

too true

[QUOTE=Laurierace;6353129]
She can breed her mare to anyone she likes, but I can not in good conscience recommend someone breed a mare for racing that has no business being a racing broodmare. It’s not that I think the foal will be abused or thrown on the slaughter truck. I think there is a very good chance she will lose tens of thousands of dollars if she breeds either of those mares to anyone for racing. I see no reason to paint a fake rosy picture just because the person is nice or is a good care taker.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately Laurie----too true, as those of us know that have been the business long term…there is no room for emotion in business. There are far too many tbs born that cannot be money makers at racing—and cannot be top sporthorses either.

[vineyridge]

Sadler’s Wells is no more or less a stamina influence than the mares he was bred to. That’s what many people suggest makes milers special. They can go long or short.

If you want to put in the context of the recent genetic research, the sprinters are C/C; the milers and middle distance horses are C/T; and the stayers are T/T. 90% of the modern QH racers and probably the breed as a whole are C/C. One hundred years ago, it is thought that the TB was probably 10% C/C. It’s up to almost 60% now. These numbers come from the scientist who discovered the MSTN complex. St. Simon, Eclipse, Bend Or (or Tadcaster), Hyperion, Persimmon, Ormonde and six or seven of the most famous TB sires in history had their DNA typed for the MSTN gene. EVERY ONE came up T/T–slow maturing with greater stamina. IIRC, middle distance is considered over a mile and up to either a mile and a half or two miles.

If Dr. Hill and her group’s research is to be believed, the TB has changed dramatically by selection for short, precocious speed in the last 70 years–post Nearco and Lady Josephine. Sadler’s Wells was probably a C/T, so if he were bred to a T/T --and there must have been a huge pool of them in Europe, given the historic sires–he would get either a C/T (middle distance) or a T/T (stayer). The rest of his possibilities are equally determinable, depending on the mare. He’s no more an influence for stamina than any other C/T stallion and much more of one than a C/C. Even if the MSTN gene is as important as the Hill group says it is, the rest of the genes determine class.

[PeteyPie]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;6354085]
Ok on second thought I vote Bernardini.[/QUOTE]

:lol:You’re so bad.

[Concetta]

@Laurierace;6354463

Why?? If they pulled A P Indy or even Storm Cat out of cold storage her mare is unlikely to have a foal of any consequence but I am supposed to scour PA for a cheap ass stallion that might fit the bill? Nobody breeds for claimers. They breed for stakes horses and settle for claimers if that is what they end up with. If you are breeding for claimers you might as well breed cattle. I am sorry you don’t like what I have to say but I feel like I am being a better friend to her than you are and I don’t even know who she is! I don’t need a friend to tell me to flush 40k down the toilet.

Edited to add. I can get you Rick Abbott’s number if you like and he can explain why he was going out on a limb when he created her in the first place and breeding her would be financial suicide. Get it from the horse’s mouth so to speak.

I don’t need you to get me anything… I have all my mare’s info-papers, etc and have a detailed history on her

Who made you the sage of all wisdom? I’ve been told that you’re racing stable was a big ol FLOP:yes:All I was asking for were stallion recommendations that compliment my mare period and met my criteria…,.and awfully presumptuous of you to assume I would be “choosing a cheap ass stallion” …you have no idea about my finances…you’re first comment of “she’s not even remotely broodmare quality” was just rude and unnecessary" and not even correct …bc there are many knowledgeable people on here who disagree with your statement

[halo]

Knowledgeable people who agree with you? Are they knowledgeable because they have read books, or are they knowledgeable because they have had or have skin in the game and have DONE it are are giving their opinions as having been there/done that.

I agree with Laurierace. If you have lots of money to spend and just want to play, thats fine. If you are doing this to actually try and do well in this venture, you’ve likely picked the wrong mare to do it with. Its like the people who have bred colored TBs who are bound and determined that they will produce a race horse, even tho they are not bred to be race horses. They breed their white or spotted horses, put them in training, race them, and they trail the field by many many many lengths. Does that make it fun? Not likely. Did they make a point? Yes, but not the one they wanted.

Laurierace has done well at the races, you’ve definitely done her a dis-service by saying she is a flop. Shows how ignorant you are about racing.

[vineyridge]

Honestly, unless lightning strikes you probably won’t get a high quality race horse from Ashley’s Due. But often even with breeding “the best to the best” not so accomplished horses are the result.

If you want to breed for a race horse to have fun with and can afford it, mare families have gone dormant for generations and come back strong. The Monarchy family is one such. Just look for a stallion who can bring speed. If he weren’t in Kentucky, Smoke Glacken is the stallion that I would have suggested. http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm?page_state=ORDER_AND_CONFIRM&sire_reference_number=1436590&dam_reference_number=8001563&color=+&sex=+&hypo_foaling_year=&breeder=&nicking_stats_indicator=Y&x=48&y=15

If there is something comparable to him in your area, that’s where you might go.

[DeucesWild11]

[QUOTE=Concetta;6355036]
I don’t need you to get me anything… I have all my mare’s info-papers, etc and have a detailed history on her

Who made you the sage of all wisdom? I’ve been told that you’re racing stable was a big ol FLOP:yes:All I was asking for were stallion recommendations that compliment my mare period and met my criteria…,.and awfully presumptuous of you to assume I would be “choosing a cheap ass stallion” …you have no idea about my finances…you’re first comment of “she’s not even remotely broodmare quality” was just rude and unnecessary" and not even correct …bc there are many knowledgeable people on here who disagree with your statement[/QUOTE]
You have a ridiculous case of barn blindness.
Is this thread sounding familiar to anyone- cough cough the prelude thread on th HJ forum?

Op you make me sad

[Justa_Bob]

Wow.

Put on some thick skins. This is a bb – and the info shared here is more of a PSA and certainly not a personal attack…

Given that we don’t know who the original poster is – putting info out to the general public that breeding is costly and risky is not a disservice to the general public.

Please, everyone go back into your corners.

This is not an attack – best wishes to Concetta.

And good to see basic, realistic info put forth by those with breeding and racing experience to discourage backyard breeders who have no business breeding — think of the meat man that these poor horses end up meeting? Look for “Loose Horses” video trailer for a dose of reality and understand where the think-before-you-breed posters are coming from.

Again, it is really exciting to see someone with the experience and resources to fund breeding for horses they plan on supporting for the long term. Oh, if only that were the case for the other 90% of breeders, we would not have the unwanted horse problem.

Best of luck Concetta! And thanks for the good info about breeding from those with experience! Both are valid!

[Justa_Bob]

Concetta - for some serious fun and great breeding ideas, you might want to post on the Sport Breeding forum. Have a blast considering good stallions for your lovely mares. Enjoy!

[halo]

Heres the statistics of the trainer you called a flop:

Career Statistics:
Starts: 578
Firsts: 67
Seconds: 83
Thirds: 85
Earnings: $1,003,940

If you can’t take advice from someone like this without getting your knickers in a twist, then you better stay with your ponies.