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Help me choose a Tb stallion for my mare

Racing
#61

Laurierace has done nothing except tell you what you need to know, not what you want to hear. From your responses, you don’t seem to like anything that isn’t telling you something you want to hear.

As for experts, I appreciate the wealth of pedigree background that I can learn here and I like to research pedigrees too, when I have time. But as for what can run today- someone who is in the game can tell you far more about the realities of today.

Want to hear from experts? Go ahead, call someone in the business of recommending matches, someone the big farms use if they don’t have those people on staff. Don’t take the word of “experts” on a forum- go right to the source and see what they have to say about your mare, if you really, really want to hear what real experts have to say.

Otherwise, reality says you’re trying to breed for a rare exception if you want a race horse. If the mare is nice for sport, breed for a TB sport horse. That usually means a horse proven in sport and won’t likely be a stallion standing to racing mares.

At the end of the day, it’s your money and you seem willing to keep the outcome regardless. Just be sure in this day and age you’ll be able to afford to keep it for life, even if it means selling something else you have and can really use. Otherwise, why not adopt an OTTB instead and at least give it a home and future?

#62

[QUOTE=Laurierace;6354307]
Post ANY pedigree and you can find someone who could run and or produce if you go back far enough. Oh look! Northern Dancer in the 4 generation, so what if it is harder to find a horse without that in their pedigree than with it, the foal will definitely win the triple crown!
God forbid I try to be helpful and save her some money and heartache. Now I am a big meanie. Breed to whoever you like, I don’t really care at this point.[/QUOTE]

I’m on your bandwagon here. My experience in this industry isn’t as exentsive as yours, but I’ve been around long enough to endure more than a few people trying to argue the case for breeding bad mares such as these. From my own experience watching such charades, I’d say that 99.9999% of the breedings of a cheap stallion to a by-nothing, out-of-nothing, done-nothing mare begets a $4000 maiden claimer at the bottom level track of one’s choice. That’s just the harsh reality you’ve tried to point out and if folks want to wax poetic about nick ratings or obscure pedigree reports, then they’re nothing more than enablers.

My advice to the OP is to save the time, risk to the mare, and money involved in breeding your mares. Instead, go to Timonium this October and privately buy up some of these yearlings that don’t bring a bid, because that’s exactly what you’re going to be breeding.

#63

but I am supposed to scour PA for a cheap ass stallion that might fit the bill?

Hmmm ??? really you were directly contacted and charged with the job of finding a stallion for the OP?? I read this as does anyone have a personal recommendation

Nobody breeds for claimers.They breed for stakes horses and settle for claimers if that is what they end up with. If you are breeding for claimers you might as well breed cattle
.

Really Laurie every single person breeds for Stakes horse…no they hope for a stakes horse and alot are just happy to break even…some have a blast and lose but just love the game…

Honestly, unless lightning strikes you probably won’t get a high quality race horse from Ashley’s Due. But often even with breeding “the best to the best” not so accomplished horses are the result.Vineyridge

…Just ask Gretchen Jackson

#64

How many people do you know who even break even? People breeding stakes horses even rarely break even, without a really top horse. I dont know of a single person breeding who is aspiring to breed a claimer. So few people even break even in this game. It can be a lot of fun, but not if you arent planning on making money or even just breaking even.

That last comment regarding Gretchen Jackson is just stupid. For the most part, and studies have been done proving this, the best horses are produced by the best mares. Theres always exceptions to the rule, but those are one in a million. Gretchen Jackson got the best horse she ever bred by breeding to one of the top horses in the country, from a graded stakes mare with fabulous family behind her. She also produced far more than just Barbaro with that mare.

#65

[QUOTE=halo;6355108]
Heres the statistics of the trainer you called a flop:

Career Statistics:
Starts: 578
Firsts: 67
Seconds: 83
Thirds: 85
Earnings: $1,003,940

If you can’t take advice from someone like this without getting your knickers in a twist, then you better stay with your ponies.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Concetta;6355036]I don’t need you to get me anything… I have all my mare’s info-papers, etc and have a detailed history on her

Who made you the sage of all wisdom? I’ve been told that you’re racing stable was a big ol FLOP:yes: nt[/QUOTE]

Wow. Just lurking but had to say OP - that was harsh…not to mention apparently untrue, based on Laurierace’s FB page as well as the above stats. I’m no expert, but papers don’t tell the whole story.
Mostly into arabians, but what Laurierace said about going far enough back into a pedigree and finding champions in ANY horse is spot on. How many times I have read about folks breeding their no-account poorly conformed pasture pet because “he/she goes back to *Bask or Skowronek…” oi vey.

Back to lurking. Sheesh.

#66

I wondering where this talk about “breaking even” in racing comes from. It’s always been a hobby for 90% or more of the owners and breeders. Even after it turned into an ‘Industry’, with breeding for the commercial sales–thanks to the Reagan IRS rules, there are still people who have the funds to have a racing hobby if they choose.

I’d also point out that the statement about the best race mares producing the best race horses is so full of exceptions that it means nothing except about averages.

Just need to point out that this mare has quality in both her sire and her dam sire. That’s a lot different from going back 4 generations before finding anything that is worth perpetuating. So the real issue is the female family, isn’t it; and the mare’s own record? Further investigation shows that most of the European blacktype produced by Luggeen’s daughters was in jumps racing over there. If you’re going to breed this family, it might worth considering actually breeding for chasing. It would certainly be at least as much fun as getting involved in flat racing with a foal. You’d just have to wait considerably longer to get started.

Would also point out that it’s obvious that Drvmbiggle has never heard of a rhetorical question

#67

Its not about the exceptions; thats obvious. Its about maximizing your odds. Its been proven over and over, and not by people just saying so, but by studies that took a cross section of mares, that faster mares produce better horses. Of course its not an absolute, its just about narrowing your odds as best as you can.

Ive always wondered what makes people think they can take a cheap slow mare and breed her to a stakes stallion, expecting to get a good foal. Not to say it can’t happen (I can hear everyone now), but if you are expecting the mare to contribute 50% (some say more), then dont be surprised when you get a slow foal.

I had a friend who did basically this, took a cheap mare, way overbred her, ended up with a decent foal. Put him in training, because this was their first race foal. Was a bad moving colt, but they couldnt see that. Didnt even make his first race before he was injured. Now they had a horse that not only didnt make the races, but was worthless as a show or riding horse. Very expensive lesson. Im just glad it was a colt and not a filly.

#68

[QUOTE=vineyridge;6355310]
I wondering where this talk about “breaking even” in racing comes from. It’s always been a hobby for 90% or more of the owners and breeders. Even after it turned into an ‘Industry’, with breeding for the commercial sales–thanks to the Reagan IRS rules, there are still people who have the funds to have a racing hobby if they choose.[/QUOTE]

And thank goodness for those people. I’d rather have them spend their money on racehorses for fun than imported show horses. What they do with a failure is their business, too. Either way, it’s their money to do whatever they want with.

(And honestly, I don’t recall EVER seeing a thread on here where Laurierace thought the mare was breedable.)

#69

Just because people are rich doesn’t mean they want to lose money. Every owner or breeder I know tries to break even, or better. Even the ones that consider their horses to be a hobby. I can’t think of any racehorse owner–no matter how well funded–who doesn’t watch their bottom line very closely.

If breeding and racing has “always been a hobby for 90% or more of owners” why do races have purses? Why do farm owners charge stud fees for their stallions? Why don’t they just give away the yearlings they don’t intend to race?

It’s because they’re looking to make money–to offset the enormous costs of breeding and racing. In the often vain hope of breaking even.

#70

In the United States, they have to break even or better to be able to use their horse expenses as the expenses of a business for the IRS. That’s been in place for 30 years. The IRS has been on horse breeders and competitors like flies on molasses. You have to make a profit every so often or your horses are treated as a hobby, and nothing is deductible.

Purses go back to the very early days. They were a form of gambling between the owners. If you think racing was a business for the Earl of Derby in the 19teens and twenties and thirties, you’d be sadly mistaken. The Duke of Westminster was supposed to have been the richest man in England, and he raced and bred. The Queen races and breeds. Racing isn’t/wasn’t a “break even” business for them. It is a true hobby. Stud fees are traditional. For many rich breeders, they just help defray the costs of stallion keeping. The category of the people that I’ve mentioned would stay in horses/racing even if they lost money every year overall. But they’d be insane if they didn’t try to minimize losses by selling horses and charging stud fees.

When Reagan’s people changed the IRS rules the impact on the horse “industry”–which wasn’t an industry before then–was incalculable. My first cousin and her husband were partners in several race horses in Louisiana, and never expected to profit. For them, it was a hobby. Tax law changed, and since they didn’t have a passion for racing, they haven’t been in a horse since.

#71

According to www.ownerview.com laurierace did not have even one stakes winner as a trainer and only 2 of her top 10 earned over $100K. One was her mare Quite An Evening by Evening Kris out of a Contare mare who produced no black type. She has 2 foals to race neither has won. Laurierace is no expert. If she listened to her own advice she would never have bred her own mare. She was also fined $500 for an overage of the painkiller bute.

#72

Shoot the messenger. I hope you guys are happy now.

#73

I’m well aware of the IRS rules with regard to horse breeding and racing as I abide by them. The information isn’t theoretical for me, it’s what I do.

If you truly believe that people such the Earl of Derby, the Duke of Westminster, and the Queen of England comprise 90% of racehorse owners (references above) it’s likely that your opinions and mine will never be on the same page. Your information is a century out of date.

Horses were most certainly an industry before the tax changes in the mid '80s. It just operated differently.

#74

The attacks on Laurierace are disgusting. Sheesh, gang.

#75

Let me correct your stupidness. (to Pristine)

Do you even know how many people have had even one horse make over $100,000, much less 2? Do you know Quite An Evening broke her maiden in a maiden special weight in her third start? Do you know she won or placed in 15 allowance races? Do you even have the tiniest clue what class is?

Do you know the Contare mare was a stakes mare?

How easy do you think it is for a runner to earn over $100,000? How many have you trained? Ive raced for 30 years, and I havent had one yet.

Do you know that she stopped breeding her mare after the third foal, who is a 2 year old right now, and bred her to another breed, and that foal just placed second at Devon? Did you know the mare is now a show horse?

Do you know she was being responsible, not because the first 2 foals havent won, but because the mare had huge foals and she was concerned for her safety. I dont know anyone who wouldnt have considered that mare breeding quality. You must have a crystal ball if you think a breeder can tell before breeding a mare that their first 2 foals wont win, and that means they shouldnt have bred them. Ashado’s first 2 foals havent won yet. Should they not breed her anymore and make a hunter out of her?

You cant even begin to tell me you are trying to compare the op’s mare to Quite An Evening.

#76

With all due respect – You do not have to make a profit to satisfy the IRS. You merely have to PROVE that you are TRYING to make a profit.
If you do make a profit 2 of every 7 years (or something like that) the BURDEN OF PROOF is on the IRS.
Otherwise, the burden of proof is on you.
Not hard to prove by keeping good records, business plans, continuing education, classes, advisers, etc.

#77

Ok this is all getting a little bit nutty and over the line on the personal attacks.

Here’s the Cliff Notes versions of the biggest points in this thread. Show me or tell me if you think I missed the mark and I will adapt:

1.) Concetta has a mare she owns and wants to breed that she says she understands the risks and even if it doesn’t run will provide it a home and a job for life even if just a pasture puff. And she has a long career of non racing background but is without a doubt a horsewoman in her discipline and longevity in horse sports

2.) Laurierace has an established career in race training with impressive stats, only one drug infraction in over 16 years of racing horses. She has a second additional credibility to be able to speak about breeding horses as she has done that successfully including helping mares in labor. (Ie not just being a “breeder” on paper) She has helped to place tb’s off the track and overall her reputation is very good.

3.) The mare in question is not of the highest pedigree nor race history. She is a personally owned mare that said owner desires to breed.

Ok… now…

First I don’t know anyone trying to breed a maiden mare for a race foal in June. Wouldn’t help it’s chances to be a (hopeful) May foal.

Now… I was on the fence about this whole situation as it is your mare and you did say you would maintain it’s safety etc. But there are questions to be asked… and all responsible breeders should know the answers so please don’t take this as an attack. I would expect to have to answer these myself were I to decide to breed.

1.) What happens if your horse is not capable of being a MSW, allowance level horse? If it must run in the claimers to be competitive will you retire it then to ensure it’s safety under your ownership? Or if you choose to run it in claimers, (which is fine) how will you ensure it stays safe and doesn’t end up somewhere less desirable?

2.) Will you enlist knowledgeable race oriented friends (as I know you have) who will guide you on trainer, breaking trainer, foaling farms selections etc to ensure this foal is safely cared for and treated as you describe you would treat it if it couldn’t run well?

3.) If it suffers an unfortunate injury and cannot run nor show, what will become of it?

4.) Given the unpredictable nature of horse sports, would people know what you’d like done with and in what manner to care for this horse for its entire life should you become injured yourself? And would funds exist to sustain it even in your absence?

Now I realize I am asking a lot. But I guarantee you that most backyard breeders would be far better off if they could answer all of these questions and had a game plan before creating another life that requires assistance to live and thrive.

I would hope that the personal attacks would cease. One medication ruling in 15 years is nothing. Michael Matz has that as well in the same amount of time. (He had 1 starter in 1996, he mostly started in 1997)

This board is full of people with a TON of credibility to speak on topics and yes we can debate lively but the mudslinging should be left to those “other” boards populated by the less than knowledgeable “pet the pony and never hurt a fly” types.

Concetta, you asked for an opinion on a public forum. If you didn’t like what other opinions you were offered than I am sorry, but you have now experienced a true COTH indoctrination. We do not fluff everyone’s pillows. When people disagree and they have seen first hand what can become of breeding a lower quality mare and then having a resulting foal be separated (for any reason) from its caring breeders, then they do have a right to ask you to “half halt” a bit and consider the less than Pollyanna side of the life we know with horses.

Here’s hoping this can go back to being a productive thread.

~Emily

#78

Damn Xctrygirl!!! Where the frig is the LIKE button?!?? applause

And to an earlier question as to the possibility of why Laurierace “always” says that the mare isn’t worth breeding when the question is posed on the forum - I dare say it’s because the owners of mares that are worth breeding don’t ask for stallion recommends on a forum - they consult with breeding experts who evaluate the mare in person, rather than just what’s “on paper” IMO…

#79

I happen to believe that Concetta’s mare Ashleys Due has a better pedigree than Quite An Evening and her race record means nothing as a broodmare. Hansen’s dam won a maiden $5K claimer. Do your homework people. Mares that could not win a race have produced stakes winners and champions. Devil His Due as broodmare sire has Game On Dude by Awesome Again won over $2 Million. His daughters have stakes winners with Medaglia D’Oro,Catienus,Louis Quatorze,etc. The black type on her dam side is not far back and she has potential if her conformation is OK. Devil His Due raced 40 of his 41 starts drug free. You should choose a stallion who has no faults in common with the mare who was sound fast and had class and if possible a cross that has proven to produce good horses. As for the Rock Point mare I have not checked her pedigree yet. I do not know if laurierace had only 1 drug overage since the site I looked at only listed the last 3 years and she has trained far fewer horses in far fewer places than the successful trainers who also rely on assistant trainers and are sometimes nowhere near the track one of their horses is racing at. In my opinion trainers who care about their horses do not race them on bute especially not more than the allowed amount. If the horse is not sound they should not run.

#80

Jeezus don’t come on a board to post asking for opinions and then get upset because people don’t give you the “opinions” you WANT. Laurie did nothing wrong and wasn’t snarky or mean at all, she simply ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION. Silly of her, I know right?! She isn’t making personal insults to your mare by suggesting she isn’t likely to produce a winning racehorse foal based on her pedigree and race record. She’s simply telling you the facts, as are other people on here, who you decide to question when they tell you more facts that you don’t want to hear. I’m sure your mare is a lovely show horse and will produce lovely show horse babies and there’s NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!

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