Help me decide between two horses update post 37

[katiepadie12]

Hi, I’ve been shopping for a 3’6” hunter prospect these past few months, found a few that I love, but due to unfortunate circumstances, it will be very difficult to see either. Anyway, I’m exploring doing a lease to purchase just off of video and would love to hear feedback on which one I should proceed with or if I should proceed at all without trying them.

Candidate #1: grey, 15.3, 2015 Holsteiner gelding. I really like the height of him and the fact that he’s grey coupled with a very pony-like appearance. He seems like a true and honest push-ride with good brakes, steady rhythm, and a decent jump, however he doesn’t seem to be super talented and his capacity for 3’6” seems questionable to me. Also, I have yet to contact the seller about a lease to own situation so I don’t even know if that’s a possibility.

Candidate #2 bay, 16h, 2015, recently imported Warmblood. Again, I like his stature and very typey appearance. This guy jumps like an absolute freak. It is just that amazing. He also is sane, however def not a push-ride if anything a lunge pre-ride type, and this slightly worries me because of recently lowered confidence in my riding. That said, he seems super ammy friendly and very forgiving with striding. Plus, he could easily go into other rings. His seller and I have also entered discussion about a lease to own situation, however they want 20 up front (his purchase price is 50).

Finally, what I want, and my riding. I want a safe, easy, uncomplicated, and talented 3’6 prospect. Something that is versatile enough to do more than just hunters and is forgiving. I want something that I can enjoy for the rest of it’s life.
For context, I’ve been riding for about 6 years now and am showing 2’6”. I’ve been riding a very quirky 14.3 half-linger cross but I have a very low tolerance for bucks, rearing, and bolting with few exceptions. To my knowledge, neither of the aforementioned horses have these issues. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

[GraceLikeRain]

Neither. The difference between 2’6 and 3’6 is far more than a foot. It is a radical difference in how your conceptualize an entire ride. For a horse to look effortless over 3’6 they are capable of schooling higher. If you canter up to a 3’6 fence with any doubt your either going to end up in the jump or are going to get taken over regardless and have your confidence shaken either way.

It really sounds like a 3’0 packer would be a phenomenal option for a year or two. Get your feet wet and get your confidence back.

Very few people do lease to own so I wouldn’t waste time on seeing a horse as an option without having that conversation first. The market is really hot, I’d honestly be skeptical of a super marketable horse being listed as a lease to sell right now.

[dags]

First one if any of them.

From where you are currently at in your riding & the price range you are shopping in, 3’6" should probably be an “if we get there, great! if not, oh well” for your next horse. IOW, you’re asking a lot of your budget.

[Against_All_Odds2]

Horse 1

You are a 2’6” rider looking to move up. You need solid experience in the 3’ ring for a while. Part of the equation is you. I would not be buying a freaky athletic horse for a 3’6” ring and have confidence issues at 2’6”

(Spoken as a 2’6” moving up rider myself!)

[Tha_Ridge]

Agreed with neither. Horse #1 sounds great for the 3’, but I can tell you (from watching it happen), that you don’t want your first 3’6" horse to be one where you question if they have the jump or the step. Spend your money on the lease of nice 3’ horse that can dabble in the 3’3" and jump around 3’6" at home and then consider finding your move-up horse.

[DollyDoll]

There seems to be a mutual agreement in this thread lol. I also have to say as a rider looking to buy a confidence builder its better to get confident first with a solid horse that will take you step by step. If these two are your only options I’d get #1 but if you have the choice I would keep looking. You could lease #1, get confident as you climb the heights, and once you see he’s maxed out get another without having to worry about your confidence

[katiepadie12]

Thanks so much for all of the responses. I think I might still look at #2 since he does have some junior experience, but if #1 is still available I will definitely see him too. The only reason I’m a little bit averse to leasing or purchasing a 3’0 packer (which is all my budget would allow) is because I wouldn’t be able to get something more talented down the road. Whichever horse I end up with will receive further professional training anyways. The input was really nice and has kept me from getting #2 unseen.

[catchcan]

I think it will be very difficult to find your forever horse right now, given your requirements. As others have mentioned, it would make more sense to lease a 3’ packer and get your riding/confidence up. Once you are confident showing 3’ and schooling 3’3” to 3’6” that would be the time to reassess your goals and the horse that will suit you. You might find that while you want more of a kick ride at 2’6” you will want and feel more confident on a horse with more of a motor for 3’6” and up.

[mika0116]

I do not think #2 is for you, and #1 could be a possibility for a temporary purchase…

As many have mentioned here, 2’6 vs 3’6 is a really huge difference, could take you a few years to move up to that height showing. The forward gait needed to safely get down the lines (even on a seemingly slow hunter) is quite forwardly marching. Once you start getting ‘air time’ rather than a large canter stride, you’ll experience a several meter per minute pace difference (3’6 should be about 450 meter per minutes vs the 300 meters per minute for 2’6) - or about 33% FASTER.

You best bet is a 3’ / 3’3’ packer to gain miles and confidence on.

And remember, you will grow as a rider. After 6 years off, I was not okay with riding through bucks, but after riding for 2 years after my reintroduction from 6 years off and jumping my way up to 2’9 / 3’+ … you don’t even really notice minor bucks. They feel less intense than the jumps. I would review video and not even notice my mare’s celebration hops after the solid roll top/ sat through some spooks I would have been lawn-darted by years prior.

I also never thought as a re-rider I would LOVE a hot horse… now I don’t at all prefer kick/push rides, I wanna be taken to a jump.

Sounds like you’re an adult, I will have to always say as I realized this personally myself, not all adult ammys move up to 3’6 and beyond. Life (work, family, education, time, finances, health etc.) plays a much larger role. This doesn’t mean adults can’t progress in fence height (I did), but my goal when I was 18 was 1.30s and now at 31 is 1.10s MAX. As I rode dressage as a kid some of the muscle memory for large fences…just isn’t there…

I would have 3’ be a interim goal, and if you are bored to tears at that - then work your way up. I found accuracy to be an interesting pain in the ass at 3’+ so I’ll be hanging out at the .90s for a good while.

I have to say this… forgiving at 3’6 is not the same as forgiving at 2’6. Forgiving at 3’6 is you’re a few inches off, not half or a full stride. Learned that the hard way, even my 2* eventer lease horse said no when I wasn’t accurate enough to a fence despite him having scope for 1.40+. The more forward going and brave the horse is (own motor and will get themselves to the base) is the MOST forgiving ride. My heart mare would jump the .90s courses with or without me.

Also, you might not like to hear this as it sounds like you prefer a smaller animal (14.3 hony now and preferred a 15.3 sale horse). I find anything that doesn’t have a true 12ft+ stride to be slightly terrifying to kick down to a 3’6 fence. Horses with that type of effortless stride are usually, not always, but 85% of the time 16h+.

happy shopping!

[OnDeck]

Some things to think about.

• Warmbloods are very, very, very different from your halflinger cross. Many riders can’t ride one side of a warmblood when they first get on it, even if it’s older and well broke. They are a very different feel from a halflinger and the gaits will feel much much different. I would absolutely not buy something you can’t ride first.
• These horses are young. To be completely honest I would not put any rider currently doing 2’6" on a young show horse and absolutely not a fresh import. Riding a nice, fancy warmblood will be a new skill set for you. Riding a young warmblood is another skill set on top of that. And riding a fresh import is another, more advanced, skill set.
• You say “to my knowledge… none of these horses have [bucking, rearing, bolting] issues”. Ah, well, 6-year-olds will most likely spook or buck at least occasionally. Many many (if not all) of them will be a “pre lunge” type before you get on. Someone selling one of these horses would not consider that an issue that needs to be disclosed because it is more or less expected of young horses.

I don’t mean to be horribly pessimistic but the only way I see either of these horses working out is for your trainer to ride them the huge majority of the time for quite a few years while you slowlyyyy progress. Go buy a 3’ horse that’s about 10 years old, it’ll be very marketable in 2 or 3 years. Then you can start looking for your fancy AO hunter.

[dcequestrian]

There seems to be a strong consensus on this thread so I’ll just add – there is no bigger 6" than the 6" difference b/w 3’ - 3’6". I’m in a similar position to you but used to do the 3’6" as a junior and coming back to riding after an extended break. I wouldn’t want to own or lease a horse that is known to buck/rear/bolt with regularity, but I also have no problem hopping on to school my trainer’s younger horses that are acting naughty. If it helps, my plan is to lease a 2’6" packer this year, a 3’ horse next year, and start thinking about buying in 2023 to do the 3’3" AOs. I’m not even considering moving up to 3’6" until 2024. I plan to prioritize packing ability over talent for the foreseeable future. I, personally, would not consider leasing or buying sight unseen because I do not have the confidence that I can ride absolutely anything or the financial means to take a loss if I have to turn around and sell something that didn’t work out. I’ve never leased a horse before, I owned all my junior horses, so I totally get wanting to buy a horse and give it a forever home, but there’s always a lease market for 3’ packers. You could buy a 3’ made horse then lease it out so its covering its own bills and buy your 3’6" prospect when you’re ready.

[mika0116]

I have to pop in and say- I totally agree with you here - you used to jump 3’6. The muscle memory is there and the comfort riding a TB/Warmblood is familiar to you. I rarely jumped more than 2’6 as a kid and rode dressage intensively, my comfort with certain dressage movements is there even 15 years later, but I only jumped 1.10+ in grids. At 30 turning 31, I am cool with a single fence at 1.10 but absolutely not a course. While with dressage movements - if the button is installed, I will ride it on almost any horse.

I believe OP is 6 years new to riding (seems to have started riding as a teen/ adult). To my knowledge has never jumped 3’6 and after 6 years is showing 2’6. And is showing 2’6 on a halfie hony mix, not anything like the ride of a WB or even TB/WB cross. OP, please correct me if I am wrong.

I fell off at the trot my first time on a big moving warmblood. His suspension and power at the extended trot literally unseated me.

For perspective, IMO going from 0 to 2’6 is easier than going from 2’6 to 3’6. I’ve seen athletic adults start riding as their kids got interested and were showing 2’6 within 18 months (and pinning at Thermal!), but have been at 2’6 - 2’9 - 3’ for about 3 - 4 years.

OP, ride some WBs / TBs and show them at 2’6 / 2’9. After either 1 or 2 seasons of you cleaning up at those levels and smashing goals then start looking for a 3’ / 3’3 been-there-done that show horse to lease and go from there.

I say this because I too have had some confidence issues, and the best way to make those worse is over-horsing yourself with semi-unrealistic reach goals. Use SMART goals technique A being “Attainable” within T, “Time”.

[TheDBYC]

@OnDeck

I don’t mean to be horribly pessimistic but the only way I see either of these horses working out is for your trainer to ride them the huge majority of the time for quite a few years while you slowlyyyy progress.

This is a good point. There’s several young, fancy horse/AA pairs I’ve been seeing at local shows for 4+ years now that either are yet to be able to jump consistently (they scratch in favor of Pleasure Horse) or to move up from the 2’ to 2’6". The horses clearly have the scope with the trainers riding them: I once watched a huge red horse ridden in a 2’3 by the groom in lieu of the owner after the latter had a minor medical emergency. Coming into the second fence on the outside line, an oxer, there was some misjudgement of the distance on the part of one or both. That horse seemed to say, “Fasten your seatbelt up there, I got this!” and did…I don’t know what exactly it did. Fired turbo rocket boosters, maybe?? Whatever it was, the end result was a jaw-dropping refutation of Newtonian Physics. This was not a falling off situation for the groom, who looked to be a former timber racing jockey. Pretty sure it would’ve been for the owner.

Thing is, the owner is a pretty good rider from what I’ve observed. Slightly timid, but good. The horse wasn’t out of control, either. He was game & making an honest effort. The trick is that kind of horse has such athleticism that his honest effort = making the leap (not too lower-to-mid level AA friendly) whereas a normal horse’s honest effort = refusing (probably low-to-mid level AA friendly). Personally, if I’m spending big $$$$, I want a horse I can reasonably ride & show most of the time without having to rely on multiple weekly training rides from a pro.

[dags]

@OnDeck

You say “to my knowledge… none of these horses have [bucking, rearing, bolting] issues”. Ah, well, 6-year-olds will most likely spook or buck at least occasionally. Many many (if not all) of them will be a “pre lunge” type before you get on. Someone selling one of these horses would not consider that an issue that needs to be disclosed because it is more or less expected of young horses.

To further add, a scopey 6 y.o. WB’s buck is an athletic feat you don’t mess around with. Back in my crash-test-dummy days, I missed at an oxer and the brand new import landed and bucked. I giggled, went around the corner, and then got reamed out for not addressing the buck (which was literally my fault). What was mildly amusing to my young, fit, professional trainer-self would have absolutely catapulted the horse’s actual owner into the next zip code.

OP you are rightfully excited about this new journey and that is AWESOME, but give it time. There have got to be more options than just these two. I would also strongly caution against buying sight unseen. That’s a gamble best left to the experienced rider that knows they can handle whatever monster steps off the trailer.

[LSBC]

I second this wholeheartedly! I had a friend who bought sight unseen and while both tried really hard to work it out… it just wasn’t a match. The horse looked great on video, had no vices, etc… It is so easy to get caught up in this process and want to make a choice immediately. The best thing you can have now is patience.

[TheDBYC]

@dcequestrian

I apparently did not have the stick that the groom did and I came off underneath him.

I would’ve fallen off just trotting down the long side Kudos to you for at least managing to stick the take off! I swear jockeys are in a class unto themselves. I work with a retired one who was very successful both flat & timber racing. Once heard his wife exclaim, “Honey, wait!” and glanced up to see him standing on a cheap wooden bar stool that no one liked to sit on because one leg was unglued, lifting down a heavy box from overhead. ( In front of a shelf full of expensive breakables, no less.) Somehow, none of this looked alarming. You could just tell that he wouldn’t fall. Odd as that sounds!

@dags, my trainer occasionally had her trainer, an FEI level show jumper, put training rides on a few young WB. One day, she was in the barn with me discussing something about my horse when we looked up to see FEI rider cantering past on a rearing 18+hh WB. FEI rider was perfectly serene & mildly amused by the whole thing. The mere sight of this all sent me hunting for my saddle grip spray

[mika0116]

Also OP, genuine question about what you mean by quirky for your current Halfie cross? If it doesn’t spook, buck, bolt, or rear, I wouldn’t consider the animal particularly quirky?

Does it do things that barn sour horses do fall in / out on a straight track, nap when asked to go forward, have a magnetic attraction for the in/out gate, pull reins out of unsuspecting riders hands, pull heavy on the forehand after jumps? These are all not quirks, but bad habits allowed series of riders over time.

Maybe quirky is a soft mouth (which is a godsend to many a rider, myself included), or perhaps quick to respond off the leg (another prized trait)? Or perhaps just being a “pony” with some 'tude like head shaking, bouncing at the canter, or biting when doing up a girth?

I don’t do rearers, chronic spookers (honest surprise & new venue, sure, but spooking at the same corner for 3 years, no thanks, it means the horse doesn’t like the work or has some personality I don’t want to ride), nor horses that are cold-backed/poorly behaved during mounting. I watched a friend split their jaw on a stirrup iron from her “quirky” jumper who was an absolute monster most of the time, especially to mount (block or otherwise). He also hated any horse moving at him and would spin and leave out any open gate. Not my cup of tea, but when she remains in the saddle, they do quite well.

Falling off 2x in warmup to then place in top 4 in the class was not uncommon for her though. I am not that type of rider.

Said horse was an import and labeled as a quirky schoolmaster with a show record up to 1.30 and had junior riders. IMO many junior riders are tougher and often better at navigating ‘scary’ than most adults. Quirky to you is not necessarily the standard definition of quirky.

I would assume that all horses, especially young imports, scopey enough for 3’6+ all have a buck. The same muscles used to buck are the ones used for jumping, they may not deploy those bucks under saddle, but they absolutely are capable.

[aregard]

@dcequestrian

there is no bigger 6" than the 6" difference b/w 3’ - 3’6".

That’s very true. My trainer used to sneak up the fences 3 inches at a time, when she thought I wasn’t looking, but man you can feel the difference. At 3 feet, you don’t necessarily even have to worry that much about bascule. At 3ft6, you FEEL it.

[GucciJumper]

For what it’s worth, as a person who struggles with confidence, I would never purchase a horse without trying it out first.

I went and saw many that were “perfect”, but were definitely not the right one for me. Some were even extremely lame and they were not in the videos I were sent.

[katiepadie12]

When I think of quirky, I don’t really think of dangerous so with that in mind my current ride’s main quirk undersaddle is stopping/running out, even if it’s just an x-rail. Over time, I’ve learned he just needs to be almost over-ridden to every jump. Aside from that, he just requires a lot of leg to support him in order to get around a course. I actually really like this part of him and he’s rarely offered to buck/rear. Most of his other quirks are on the ground. Particularly, bolting and being somewhat nippy when tied for more than 20 minutes. He used to be a pretty dangerous horse due to initially poor training with his old owner. I do occasionally ride a second horse who has a tendency to buck after to jumps and, some days, when asked to go forwards will buck/rear although they’re fairly small. That said when I think of quirky I don’t really think dangerous.