Help me decide between two horses update post 37

[mika0116]

Gotcha, @katiepadie12 - yeah none of those would be labeled as quirky in a sales ad at least from my experience. Maybe the stopping, but does the animal stop with the trainer? If he only stops with students I suspect that’s ponytude, lots of inconsistent rides, or maybe he’s just not into jumping.

I am concerned that you (a relative beginner) are being put on animals that have a rear in them. I’ve been riding, (with a few breaks) for over 20 years. I have only ever sat through 2 confirmed rears on the same horse. I promptly stopped riding that horse. This willingness to put you on unsafe animals is concerning. I don’t think I’ve seen a horse rear under saddle in a few years outside of the backing facility for my former trainer’s homebreds and outside the green classes warmup ring at A rated shows.

I rode a frequent stopper, who was a forward ride. It was awful because when were were good, he was fantastic, but at times, he would RUN to the jump only to panic and slide reiner style to a stop- often into the fence. Once I fell off of at the lofty oxer in warm up. He stopped so short he and I went INTO the jump. Ended up with a massive black eye and a concussion from him catching me in the face with a hoof as he leapt over me and the fallen standards, so I couldn’t show in the classes I paid for. Had my trainers (GP rider and her supporting trainer with 30 years of show jumping experience) ride him in all my classes. He stopped 4 times in the .80s with her, she asked the attendant to allow her to use this as schooling. She basically had to have spurs (which he never needed) and a whole lot of encouragement. He never got around that course, even with my GP trainer on him. Turns out the horse had an injury in his check ligament from a kick in turn-out. He was retired from jumping right after that diagnosis.

Ask your trainer to ride a 16h horse without a stop for the next show season. I don’t think now is the time for you to be buying.

For what you want vs your skill level, you’ll be paying for your trainer to ride a horse while you still end up leasing another animal to progress. Also, the possibility the purchased animal and you never connecting as horse and rider seems very real and your trainer gets a nice sale price for the animal they developed on your dime.

I am wary of the trainer that encourages a 30-50k purchase of an animal that the rider cannot currently ride at the level they expect with no/minor supervision. What happens when your trainer goes to a show and you come out to ride on your own (maybe you don’t jump for barn rules, but are you experienced enough to lunge properly without doing soft tissue damage prior to a ride)? Can you ride through some flat nonsense of a young horse not in a lesson? Would your trainer be receiving commission on this animal? I may be pessimistic, but I’ve been in enough show barns to know that there is a significant possibility your trainer might have some “other plans” that they are banking on your naivety and eagerness to progress to execute on.

I think 75% of the joy of having a horse is coming out to the barn excited and comforted by your animal, not fear. The other 25% is the accomplishment and the adrenaline.

Not going to talk you out of over horsing yourself, I just feel you on the confidence issues. We are very different riders, haha. I would haatteee riding a push ride, even to small fences. Stay safe!

[katiepadie12]

To answer your first questions, yes he does stop with a trainer but he does get ridden somewhat inconsistently. I wouldn’t consider this particularly dangerous since he tends to slow down before he stops and he’s not particularly spooky. One of the main reasons I’m buying a horse is because there is no not quirky, 16h 2’6”-3’0 horse for me to ride. I am opening up my search for older, more experienced types, but I do understand your concern and will keep it in mind during my search.

[mika0116]

I would consider exploring other barns and trainers.

I would not want to be coached up to the 3’6 level with a trainer that can’t get a 14.3 pony consistently over a 2’6 fence. That means the horse cannot do the job safely (undiagnosed medical issue) or the trainer isn’t doing their job very well. 90% of horses can jump 2’6 from a standstill…unless they cannot jump that height normally due to age/injury. A good trainer should be able to ride consistently enough to push dawdling, baulky pony over a fence from a trot or marching walk. And if they can’t, know enough to not put an adult with confidence issues on them until the stop is uninstalled.

Even if it adds another 30 mins to your barn commute, riding an appropriate animal is key to progress. A barn with only quirky options is a bit of a red flag - how do I know, well, I rode a lot of those ‘quirky’ ones that did not bode well for progress.

Another trainer would have connections to care leases or in barn partial leases that your current one does not. And possibly insights into your riding and skill set that your current does not. If possible, ride in a clinic with your current horse and ask them about your 3’6 goals. A clinician without monetary ties to you would give you wonderful advice!

[catchcan]

I strongly agree with this. I don’t think you have inherent confidence issues, I think you have a not great trainer putting you on not great horses. A better trainer teaching you on appropriate school horses might have you riding confidently within a matter of weeks. I would not be shopping for a horse with your current trainer. In fact, it sounds like you could potentially buy a nice horse and your trainer could introduce problems. Fix your trainer problem, then assess whether you even want or need to buy a horse right now. Most any solid training barn will have no problem supplying a steady 2’6-2’9 horse for your lessons and shows.

[findeight]

There is zero excuse for a horse to stop with anybody and the fact it slows down before it stops does NOT make it less of a disobedience. Fact it just teaches the horse it really doesn’t have to do anything the rider asks for and allowing it to continue uncorrected or putting a student on is not the action of an even minimally qualified “trainer”. Thats just ridiculous. Of course, the horse might be stopping because it hurts…but thats even worse.

Didn’t follow this thread but OP needs better help then this “trainer”. Whatever OP pays this wannabe is too much. Worst thing is bad example and instruction eventually will get OP hurt, especially on known stoppers, even if it slows down.

[mika0116]

@findeight - I respect you very much on this forum. I was worried I was being a little paranoid and assuming the worst. Also trying not to offend OP. Thanks for the confirmation of my thought process.

I am even more concerned that a trainer is allowing a relative adult beginner who took 6 years to get to 2’6 to believe that they should be using their $50k to purchase a 6 yr old WB import for the Open 3’6 hunters. I suspect OP has not ridden under any other trainers nor clinicians.

@katiepadie12 - new trainer is a MUST. Your current one seems really off. It is not normal to go from a Halflinger pony/hony who crawls to a stop to a cross rail either due to either laziness or pain, to a 'freak of a jumper" 6 year old WB import. Thats like having a high school degree and planning to skip undergrad and Masters to enroll into a PhD program…

The fact that the horse slows to a stop is actually MORE of an issue, my horse was injured and in PAIN, he wanted to jump so badly, but then couldn’t leave the ground because of the career ending injury that was never diagnosed. He never presented as lame, even after that incident, my trainers and I demanded several vets to examine his entire body to find the injury that was obviously generating the stop.

A horse that peters to a stop by slowing down with no injury is usually indicative of poor riding / training - generally both.

Do not waste your money on buying a horse under this trainer - you will lose on the investment.

It also is not normal for a grade pony cross to be stopping with a high quality trainer unless the animal, like mine described above, is in SO MUCH PAIN that it needs to be retired from that level of work.

You trainer reads as really inappropriate. At best ignorant, at worst predatory.

[ElementFarm]

THIS ^^^

This is 100% accurate. A WB hunter is orders of magnitude a different ride than you’re used to.
Don’t window shop. Don’t ask the internet. Put yourself in your trainer’s capable hands, and let him/her find the right confidence-building move up horse for you. Likely this will be a teenaged WB or cross that can take a joke and save you from the miss. A 6yo, no matter how talented, is NOT that horse. And a fresh import even less so. And if your “trainer” is even thinking that one of these horses might work out for OP, is a red flag that OP needs a different trainer!

[Allusion]

“There is no greater 6” difference than the 6" between 3’ and 3’6" " - truer words have never been spoken.

OP, I feel like I was in your shoes about 5 years ago… I had been riding for about 25 years at that point and had done the bigger stuff in my teenager years, but hadn’t jumped consistently over 3’ in the past number of years. I was confident in my ability and was certain that I wanted to do the 3’6" at some point because - hell, I had jumped that big and bigger in my youth, why wouldn’t I get there again? I thought I wanted a 3’6" prospect, too. (And side-note: I am totally ok with a hot horse that throws some spooks, bucks, and I can handle a rear.)

Wow, did I get served humble pie with a reality check.

1. I realized that while I had jumped big in my youth, it was done in a haphazard way that makes now-me shudder.
2. There is a GINORMOUS learning curve between 2’6" and 3’ and an even bigger (arguably one of the biggest) learning curves to get from 3’ to 3’6"

I bought a schoolmaster that had done the 3’6" AOs (and won) with her previous owner. When I first got her, I was cocky and confident that I’d be in the 3’6" ring in short order.

Uh, no.

It took me a solid year to get to the point where I was putting together a decent 3’ round. It took me another year to get to the point where I was schooling 3’3" consistently and putting together a halfway decent round, and jumping some 3’6" fences. I ultimately decided to take a hiatus from the H/J show world, so my 3’6" journey ended there. I was completely and totally humbled.

This was on a schoolmaster who had competed and won at the 3’6" level with her previous owner.

I would have RUINED a prospect, if I had truly wanted to get to the 3’6" level. I’m shocked I didn’t ruin my schoolmaster, but she’s extremely forgiving and very well schooled.

Also - it’s worth noting that sane, safe, truly 3’6" prospects are NOT going to be cheap. If it is going to truly be something that can put together a good 3’6" course (and NOT be quirky as hell with some major tricks up its sleeve, or be an OTTB that needs a fuckton of work) you are not going to find that on a modest budget.

TL;DR: Thought I wanted a 3’6" prospect, didn’t realize that there is a MASSIVE, HUGE, CANNOT BE UNDERSTATED gap in knowledge and ability between riding a 3’ course and 3’6", bought a schoolmaster and still didn’t get to 3’6" courses.

[aregard]

Apropos of absolutely nothing that the OP has asked, I would also casually opine that there’s no way in hell I’d drop that kind of money on a horse.

I have trailered horses home only to have one take down a hip exiting the barn stall, and another jump on top of an orange tree, resulting in several puncture wounds in hard to reach places. My “big eventer” tore a suspensory 9 months after purchase and never jumped again.

Horses try to kill themselves regularly.

If I had $50K burning a hole in my pocket, I’d save $40K of it (well, if you knew me, you’d scoff. I’d save $45K of it), buy a cheap youngster and put that youngster in training with a very trusted trainer. It’s cheaper to train a horse up to 50K’s worth than it is to buy $50Ks worth, and you learn something along the way. The learning being the critical part.

$50K horses aren’t for people who have saved and scrimped to buy them. $50K horses are for people with a $200K budget, so if the $50K horse kills itself, they can go out and find another.

Pardon me for intruding with a truly unsolicited commentary.

[mika0116]

I think if OP knew this or could conceptualize this, they wouldn’t have posted the question. I hope the analogy to higher education was helpful to them…

Most of us don’t ever get to the 3’6 after 20 years of riding, let alone a rider who starts as an adult and took 6 years to get to 2’6.

A friend’s brother who never rode (but raced motocross semi professionally), put in a decent 2’6 round of 6 fences on his 3rd time on a horse period. Within 3 months he was effective, but not pretty at 3’. He said it was fun, but he preferred things that let him lean on turns

Oh to be a brave 20 year old, fit male with an extreme sport background!

[SadieRidingHorses]

@aregard

$50K horses aren’t for people who have saved and scrimped to buy them. $50K horses are for people with a $200K budget, so if the $50K horse kills itself, they can go out and find another.

This is so wise. Thank you.

[RileysMom]

I have to say, reading through this thread makes me feel so much better about my goals and limits! I rode decently when I was a teenager and in college. As a bona fide grown up, I bought The Warmblood (he was 6). Man is he athletic. And tall and hunky. And SWEET. And so so forgiving. No vices whatsoever and even his spooks are tame. Goal was to jump at least 3’, go from there. A few years later and…no. Like a previous poster noted, the WB movement can be huge and his is HUGE. Covers so much ground and it took me a while to be very comfortable with the power even in his trot. We’ve jumped small things but are still working on flatwork, which has been a journey for both me and for him since he was somewhat green when I bought him. But jaws can drop when we trot by, so there’s that; it’s a delight riding him even if we’re not jumping bug things. It’s helped me adjust my mindset and my goals.

[Scribbler]

Yes this is the conundrum for many of us average ammies.

Get a horse that can excel in the job, but he’s too much horse for us in some way.

Or get a horse that we feel totally comfortable with but that is limited in his athleticism.

[GoneAway]

Buy the horse you need now, not the horse you think you might need several years from now.

OP, is your trainer suggesting you go and buy a young 3’6" prospect? If so, full stop. There have been cases of trainers encouraging amateur clients to buy young prospects that are too much horse for them - this creates a reliance on the trainer and keeps the horse in training (more $$$ for trainer) and probably gives the trainer a nice horse to show in the bigger classes at the client’s expense. If this is the case, don’t fund your trainer’s show goals.

As others have said, what you need now is a solid 3’ packer to teach you the ropes at that level. I agree with others that there is a big gap between showing at 2’6" and showing at 3’ - and the gap from 3’ to 3’6" is even more difficult. There is usually always a good market for that 3’ packer, so if you find you need to move them on later, you should be able to. Maybe you need an older horse stepping down from the bigger classes. That’s the exact opposite of your desire for a young horse, but this is about your riding education and those older horses that need to step down a bit can be an incredible education tool.

And lastly, very few people should buy horses sight unseen off videos, and those are either highly experienced amateurs (with a good support team) or pros. The reality is that the seemingly easy to ride prospect on the sale video may be being prepped pre-ride/pre-video, and is ridden by an experienced rider who usually has a strong talent for making horses look easy.

[Allusion]

Aha! I knew I had wanted to mention something but forgot what it was - thank you for jogging my memory.

(Most of) The riders that ride at the barns that regularly export to the US and Canada are AMAZING riders that can take a rank young WB and make it look like a dead-broke seasoned packer. I don’t know how they do it, but they do. I’ve seen a number of horses come over that looked like you could throw your grandma up there and pin a 3’ round, come off the trailer and have no idea about anything beyond the most basic education you can imagine.

So - please be cautious about video, especially the imports, especially the imports at a seemingly extremely reasonable price… there’s a reason.

I guess I should add a caveat that the above isn’t just for imports… really almost any horse is going to look a heck of a lot different under a pro or talented ammy rider than under anyone else.

Again, I say this as an ammy that was very humbled by my experience and know a heck of a lot more now than I did 5 years ago.

[akhunterrider]

I was a good rider as a junior, but for the most part have only shown at 3 foot and below. I haven’t shown since 2014 now. Between 2014 and 2019 I owned a horse that was very green that absolutely wrecked my confidence. He wasn’t a bad horse, but ended up being more horse than I was comfortable dealing with. After I sold him, I started riding a TB gelding and jumping consistently for the first time since 2014. I maybe jumped 2’6" a handful of times before taking another break due to being pregnant. The horse I rode was not an easy ride, but an absolute saint. During that time while I realized I still maintained the skills I’ve always had, my confidence level was so much lower and I really wasn’t comfortable jumping even tiny fences anymore without my trainer watching me.

All that to say, being overfaced by a horse can have very long term effects to the mental part of riding. While I could probably ride a warmblood, I have no real desire to. I’m all about safe right now and not riding horse that I know will be too much for my current confidence level. If your next goal is 3 foot, buy or lease a horse than can pack you around the 3 foot while you gain confidence. And please find a new trainer that has your best interest as a rider at heart. I don’t believe your current trainer does.

[katiepadie12]

It’s a month later, I thought I would give an update. I ended up not getting the talented import, but (pending PPE) a relaxed, forgiving, and slightly older warmblood. Also to clarify, I found the import independently, and only consulted about him with my trainer who suggested I go a different direction in the end. Additionally, I am in no rush to move up quickly and am happy to wait. The import was eventually sold, but I recently saw that he is being put back up on the market for a reduced price due to him needing a “patient and experienced rider.” I am very happy I waited for a different one to come along.

[Tha_Ridge]

I’m glad it all worked out! I think you made the right call in the long run.

[blue_heron]

@aregard

$50K horses aren’t for people who have saved and scrimped to buy them. $50K horses are for people with a $200K budget, so if the $50K horse kills itself, they can go out and find another.

And either way you insure that horse for as much as you possibly can.

[gertie06]

I think you were smart to make this decision. I also think you were smart (and admirably vulnerable) to post this question on the Forum. I’m sure some of the feedback was hard/disappointing to read, but so much of it was spot-on.

I hope you find the perfect horse and enjoy your learning journey.