Help me out -- Hackamores...

[katarine]

What I don’t like and think is a bit of a rip off is where the reins are attached on this halter you bought, Jazz. and yes, Anything with PP name on it is jacked up because he can get away with it. Good for him LOL

This is where I’m coming from …a traditional sidepull is going to cue the horse’s face higher up —like almost midway between nostril and eyeball…the seems a good place, where a horse following/yielding to pressure is going to be good with, to follow that feel pretty readily— it’s consistent and broadly saying the the right side of the face, hey, let’s give and turn left, find some slack. What you’ve bought here (IMO, just MO) setting lower and pulling at the opposite side of their face…on an angle, pulling both back (vertically) AND laterally…something in my gut says ‘resistance’- it’s bracey by design- that’s just what my mind’s eye sees.

Look- I was at a little show last weekend, watched a girl riding a cute horse alllll over in a rope halter, having a large time…but that horse was braced braced braced- never bent his neck laterally, certainly never softened his poll- she wasn’t heavy on her reins but he was super uneducated about giving and feel and softening. It was almost like she was skiing on his face- but on slack. That’s what this thing looks like to me. Pseudo step in the right direction.

But hey, YMMV

[katarine]

test

[sublimequine]

[QUOTE=katarine;3577405]
What I don’t like and think is a bit of a rip off is where the reins are attached on this halter you bought, Jazz. and yes, Anything with PP name on it is jacked up because he can get away with it. Good for him LOL

This is where I’m coming from …a traditional sidepull is going to cue the horse’s face higher up —like almost midway between nostril and eyeball…the seems a good place, where a horse following/yielding to pressure is going to be good with, to follow that feel pretty readily— it’s consistent and broadly saying the the right side of the face, hey, let’s give and turn left, find some slack. What you’ve bought here (IMO, just MO) setting lower and pulling at the opposite side of their face…on an angle, pulling both back (vertically) AND laterally…something in my gut says ‘resistance’- it’s bracey by design- that’s just what my mind’s eye sees.

Look- I was at a little show last weekend, watched a girl riding a cute horse alllll over in a rope halter, having a large time…but that horse was braced braced braced- never bent his neck laterally, certainly never softened his poll- she wasn’t heavy on her reins but he was super uneducated about giving and feel and softening. It was almost like she was skiing on his face- but on slack. That’s what this thing looks like to me. Pseudo step in the right direction.

But hey, YMMV ;)[/QUOTE]

That’s not an equipment problem though, that’s a training problem.

[jazzrider]

Actually, it’s a good point. I was down in the barn last night trying to figure out just how high up on the face it’s supposed to go, and ended up setting it up to be just a bit higher than the picture (he’s got a short, short little head). So we’ll see how that goes.

I will say that the woman who made the hackamore, in our discussion, really stressed that lateral flexion needed to be taught before using a hackamore like this – she even included a little primer in the mailing envelope about it. Fortunately, Jazz isn’t much of a bracer and flexes laterally quite nicely, so I won’t really know how good this hackamore will be for him until he acts up. He hates crossing small ditches so I may bring him to one at my neighbor’s today to do a test – rather than out on trail. Either that or I can put a real saddle on him – that will make him good and grumpy since we’ve been riding with a bareback pad for the last year.

I’ll let you know how it goes.

[katarine]

[QUOTE=sublimequine;3577424]
That’s not an equipment problem though, that’s a training problem.[/QUOTE]

When the equipment won’t support the training, you have both problems.

[sublimequine]

[QUOTE=katarine;3577456]
When the equipment won’t support the training, you have both problems.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think that’s true. If you’re doing things right it’s perfectly capable to reach a horse to give and be soft in the ‘bridle’ (in this case, a halter used for riding :lol: ) using a rope halter.

[katarine]

We could agree to disagree. I don’t like a rope halter - used as a bridle- to teach/reinforce lessons about lateral flexion. It’s fine when you’re on the ground because of where you are oriented or likely to be. From the saddle…where a horse’s issues might include being tensed/bracey/chargey/tight…I think the horse’s needs are better served with different gear. JMO.

[sublimequine]

[QUOTE=katarine;3577499]
We could agree to disagree. I don’t like a rope halter - used as a bridle- to teach/reinforce lessons about lateral flexion. It’s fine when you’re on the ground because of where you are oriented or likely to be. From the saddle…where a horse’s issues might include being tensed/bracey/chargey/tight…I think the horse’s needs are better served with different gear. JMO.[/QUOTE]

I think it all just depends on the individual horse. My mare doesn’t go real well in rope halters for riding, they’re actually too strong for her, with the knots in the nose. I have a rope sidepull similar to the one she ordered (only the reins come from the side of the face like a traditional sidepull), and I actually put a fleecy over the nose to cover the knots. She goes better in it that way, and by eliminating the use of the knots, it basically rides exactly like a traditional sidepull now.

BUT like I said, that’s just one horse. I’ve seen other horses go beautifully in rope halters/sidepulls, whatever you wanna call it. Nice draped rein, neck reining beautifully, soft in the ‘bridle’, good flexion, etc. It can be done. :yes:

[craz4crtrs]

[quote=Countrycl![](ps;3576225]
When I started training my 2 Rockies at age 3 I used a rope sidepull and they did wonderfull. This fall I decided to use a bit but they did not like it. so put an old fleece lined leather short shank hack on each of them and was amazed at how well they did with it. They gaited great and stopped really well. I tried it out on several other horses I have and each did super. The only one that did poor was a 6 year old MFT that I just started riding in August after some rehab from an abusive trainer. She just does not understand yet how to give to pressure so fights it. But for an inexpensive hackamore I can’t complain. Now is this one supposed to be harsh? It has a chain chinstrap.
[/quote]

If it looks like this, no it is very mild with limited leverage. You can even put a leather curb strap on it. Like I said before, I only have one horse that doesn’t like it. http://www.horse.com/zoomimages.aspx?sku=WBE12

I also said in my previous post that I really like a loping hack or a regular western sidepull, but couldn’t get one in my horse’s size, he’s a fjordX.

I have two large size bridles made by Buckaroo leather. They fit him great. I found their website and they do make larger sidepulls and loping hacks. I contacted them and they will make the bigger browbands on the shorter cheekpieces, or vice versa. That would work great on my guy. I plan on ordering one from them, just haven’t decided what I want.

They have a few sidepull or loping hack options.
All leather sidepull…
[IMG]http://www.buckarooleather.com/products_gfx/LH225LS.full.jpg)

Regular sidepull…
[IMG]http://www.buckarooleather.com/products_gfx/LH225.full.jpg)

Loping hack w/cotton reins…
[IMG]http://www.buckarooleather.com/products_gfx/RW330c.full.jpg)

Loping hack w/nylon rope reins…
[IMG]http://www.buckarooleather.com/products_gfx/RW330.full.jpg)

Now, about the rope halter type of sidepull. You will have a little more lateral control than with a plain halter, BUT, this type of rig won’t be as stable on a horses face. That is what the browband and along with the fiador (throatlatch) or regular throatlatch does. It keeps the bridle in place. Look at the difference of the above sidepulls vs what you are getting. If it works, great. If you both like the hack, but it slips around, consider looking at a more conventional sidepull.

[katarine]

I’ve seen other horses go beautifully in rope halters/sidepulls, whatever you wanna call it.

Those two terms are not interchangeable in my mind. Therein lies the difference. OK one of many differences, between your mind and mine.

Carry on

[sublimequine]

[QUOTE=katarine;3577665]
I’ve seen other horses go beautifully in rope halters/sidepulls, whatever you wanna call it.

Those two terms are not interchangeable in my mind. Therein lies the difference. OK one of many differences, between your mind and mine.

Carry on ;)[/QUOTE]

I think we’ve got some confusion as to what I’m referring to. Here’s what I’m talkin about:

Here’s a “rope halter with reins”:
http://naturalhorsemanship.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/bridle-rides-up-72.jpg

Here’s a “rope sidepull”:
http://www.sunsethalters.com/sierra.jpg

They’re advertised differently, but the exact same thing.

[katarine]

Sidepulls should be leather, with rope noses, and multiple places to adjust them for stability. This thread already has good examples shown.

Rope halters - with our w/o funky or additional loops…are rope halters. adding loops doesn’t make it a sidepull (in my world, in more traditional terms) anymore than earrings and pearls would make my husband, my wife

[Auventera_Two]

All 3 of my horses go great in a rope halter with reins - never had a problem. I guess I just don’t use them regularly because I don’t like the looks of them. Just a personal choice I guess. But I have used them several times on each of my horses when I’m going to be hacking around the fields at home or if I ended up at the ride location without my bridle. Yes, I’ve done it a couple times. The only reason I even own rope halters is that they are required in my mounted patrol group.

I like the Little S a LOT. I do not like that chain under the chin. I replaced it with a leather curb strap, also replaced the hobble with a cord. Also I replaced the nose with a Beta flat noseband from Hought. Later I ditched the “S” shanks and just attached the reins, noseband, and leather curb to 2 small rings so there was zero leverage action. My horse goes great in that too. But she is extremely sensitive in the nose and mouth. Extremely sensitive.

I have her back in a bit now because the last long ride I did in my modified S Hack, it was really hot, she was sweating under the Beta noseband, and she got really scurfy, skin peeling, etc. It then got sensitive. She’s going so well in this bit I’m going to leave her in it for as long as she keeps enjoying it. I’ll switch her up again if I have to.

I like it that my horses can go in just about anything from rope halter to curb bit to snaffle bit to sidepull to hackamore. I also think it’s about training more than equipment.

I used to have an Arabian mare (died at about 30 years old) that could be ridden 100% safely and happily with a string around her neck. She was a reining horse in her hayday and ooooooh was she sensitive. She was taught to neckrein and stop like there was no tomorrow. What a really cool horse. I rode her a LOT with no bridle at all, just that loop around her neck.

[sublimequine]

[QUOTE=katarine;3577935]
Sidepulls should be leather, with rope noses, and multiple places to adjust them for stability. This thread already has good examples shown.

Rope halters - with our w/o funky or additional loops…are rope halters. adding loops doesn’t make it a sidepull (in my world, in more traditional terms) anymore than earrings and pearls would make my husband, my wife ;)[/QUOTE]

Rope equipment aside, by your definition none of these are sidepulls:

http://www.horse.com/Western-Tack/Headstalls/Nylon-Side-Pull-WQA10.html

http://www.nrsworld.com/istar.asp?a=6&id=38074!RUHTE

http://www.rods.com/p/425,129_Flat-Leather-Nose-Sidepull.html

So what would you call these?

But in either case, we’re getting off topic. Not all rope tack are rope halters, and not all sidepulls are leather with a rope nose. I think OP should try as many choices as she can, and I totally applaud her for trying something gentle first. Good luck OP, let us know what your horse thinks of what you ordered! :yes:

A2; I didn’t know about the neoprene/beta? noseband making your mare’s nose all scurfy and peeling. Has it healed over? Sorry that happened!

[katarine]

SE =those are sidepulls…your superfluous point is taken on the strap materials/nose materials…but the really key point of mine - the key difference between a sidepull and a rope halter…remains: can you tell me what it is? Because that’s my main and key point. Not nylon vs leather vs beta.

Training equipment should fit the horse well. That helps you train better. Sidepulls are better than rope halters for training from the saddle.

And my Little S hacks continue to sport their original dreadful rope noses and no one after all these years has sweated/scurfed/pinked up/reddened up/bled slightly/bled profusely/cried/whimpered…nothing. Maybe a thin sliver of sweat. The horrors.

I don’t ‘not’ applaud Jazz for opting for kindest first. I think the OP and I are fine, thanks very much…we’re just talking here. I remain unconvinced a modified rope halter is as stable on the face as a piece of riding equipment and ideal - particularly for a TWH who may have a lot of head shake. I’d rather see a real sidepull or a polite, small, mechanical hackamore.

JMO.

[jazzrider]

[QUOTE=katarine;3578291]
I don’t ‘not’ applaud Jazz for opting for kindest first. I think the OP and I are fine, thanks very much…we’re just talking here. I remain unconvinced a modified rope halter is as stable on the face as a piece of riding equipment and ideal - particularly for a TWH who may have a lot of head shake. I’d rather see a real sidepull or a polite, small, mechanical hackamore.

JMO.[/QUOTE]

True, and to be honest – I don’t mind the side conversation because it’s all educational for me (and I’m used to the bickering :winkgrin:). But I should clarify, K, that the hackamore is for my QH Jazz, who is a well trained in both dressage and reining, and not my TWH. So the only head shaking that occurs is when he’s annoyed with me.

[sublimequine]

[QUOTE=katarine;3578291]
SE =those are sidepulls…your superfluous point is taken on the strap materials/nose materials…but the really key point of mine - the key difference between a sidepull and a rope halter…remains: can you tell me what it is? Because that’s my main and key point. Not nylon vs leather vs beta.

Training equipment should fit the horse well. That helps you train better. Sidepulls are better than rope halters for training from the saddle.

And my Little S hacks continue to sport their original dreadful rope noses and no one after all these years has sweated/scurfed/pinked up/reddened up/bled slightly/bled profusely/cried/whimpered…nothing. Maybe a thin sliver of sweat. The horrors.

I don’t ‘not’ applaud Jazz for opting for kindest first. I think the OP and I are fine, thanks very much…we’re just talking here. I remain unconvinced a modified rope halter is as stable on the face as a piece of riding equipment and ideal - particularly for a TWH who may have a lot of head shake. I’d rather see a real sidepull or a polite, small, mechanical hackamore.

JMO.[/QUOTE]

I never stated you weren’t encouraging OP to go for the kindest first, I was saying that to try and head back towards being on topic. Had nothing to do with what you’ve said so far, and it’s something we both can agree on.

Otherwise, I still disagree on basically everything else. But we already know we’ll never come to an agreement on much of anything, as history has demonstrated. :lol:

[Auventera_Two]

@katarine;3578291

And my Little S hacks continue to sport their original dreadful rope noses and no one after all these years has sweated/scurfed/pinked up/reddened up/bled slightly/bled profusely/cried/whimpered…nothing. Maybe a thin sliver of sweat. The horrors.

Well that’s great it works for you. Some horses have more sensitive skin than others. Particularly if they’re ridden 5 or 6 days a week. I used to ride 1-2 hours a day, 5 days a week on my QH - did it for months - and never had a problem with the rawhide nose on the Little S. The POA and the Arab both however have gotten rub marks from it. What works for some horses might not work for others.

[katarine]

So, Sublime …are you going to answer my question?

SE =those are sidepulls…your superfluous point is taken on the strap materials/nose materials…but the really key point of mine - the key difference between a sidepull and a rope halter…remains: can you tell me what it is? Because that’s my main and key point. Not nylon vs leather vs beta.

Jazz- good! Glad to hear it’s the QH My TWH gets defensive if he’s asked to move out in a halter on a slack line…too much action in the line and he worries, so I’m sensitive to that about them…my SSH/TWH filly though, would never even NOTICE. Goat.

[sublimequine]

[QUOTE=katarine;3578466]
So, Sublime …are you going to answer my question?

SE =those are sidepulls…your superfluous point is taken on the strap materials/nose materials…but the really key point of mine - the key difference between a sidepull and a rope halter…remains: can you tell me what it is? Because that’s my main and key point. Not nylon vs leather vs beta.

Jazz- good! Glad to hear it’s the QH My TWH gets defensive if he’s asked to move out in a halter on a slack line…too much action in the line and he worries, so I’m sensitive to that about them…my SSH/TWH filly though, would never even NOTICE. Goat.[/QUOTE]

I don’t have anything to prove to you, so no, I’m not going to answer your question. :lol: