Help me simplify my horse's Feeding routine...

[One_Two_Three]

Hey all, often I pop on here with random questions, when I need to discuss through something, etc…

I’ve finally gotten my horse to a place where I’m seeing positive changes in his body condition (he’s NOT in terrible shape, it’s just a learning curve for me and a transitory curve for the OTTB)

I’ve been throwing some ‘stuff’ into his feeding to add calories, but it’s really time that I simplify it all down, from a cost standpoint and the BO’s sanity, plus using what I know about my horse’s eating habits.

So, for starters, here is what he is currently getting:

Succeed (on the 60 day challenge)
Actiflex 4000 (joint)
Electrolytes
UGard Pellets

I’ve done all the number crunching and breaking down of everything so hopefully those willing to help can easily follow:

Cavalor Fiberforce:
6 pounds a day (5724 calories)

Alfalfa Pellets:
3 pounds a day (2910 calories)

Cavalor WholeGain Supplement:
1/2 pound a day (763 calories)

Beet Pulp:
1 pound a day (1050 calories)

Timothy/Alfalfa/Orchard Hay:
Offered in a slow feed haynet freechoice, seems to eat roughly 16-20 pounds a day (13,600 calories on the low end)

Grass overnight
(don’t calculate calories, feel like it’s not enough intake to make a difference)

For a grand total of 24,047 calories a day.
Light-Moderate working horse, should probably get around 25,000 calories a day to maintain, gain if in light work.

My master plan is to cut the beet pulp. He hates it. He deals with it because I put his (beloved) alfalfa pellets mixed in after it’s been soaked, but he flings it everywhere, attracts flies, and isn’t likely getting his 1,000 calories a day from it. I also want to cut the WholeGain, because I feel as though it’s not contributing quite enough calories to his diet to be worth the price. This means I’ll be in about an 1800 calorie deficit.

I’d like to introduce a senior feed into his diet. My top choice at this time, due both to ingredients, price, and availability, is Seminole Wellness Senior Mix. This feed packs 1,465 calories per pound, and 1 pound is 1 quart. I could easily feed 2 pounds a day and cut the other two while saving money and feeding something the horse is happier eating.

Is there any reason that I’m missing, that this ISNT a good switch to make? Remember, he hates beep, he’s on a high fiber food as his main feed (the cavalor fiberforce) so extra fiber missed from the beep isn’t an issue…

or any other thoughts? Looking at ways to save money while simplifying based on the amount of bags he has in the feed room

Notable to add that he is indeed getting enough of the FiberForce to provide him with his daily value needs, so the small amount of senior will not be his main source of nutrients, just a calorie boost.

[Simkie]

Why keep the Fiber Force at all? I’d go straight senior.

Can you get him eating more hay? That just doesn’t seem like much. Maybe a heavier alfalfa mix, if he’s so fond of his pellets?

[candyappy]

It sounds like all you plan to do is switch from beet pulp to senior a feed? You won’t save any cost on that or make much difference to those who have to feed it.

Can you find a higher calorie feed that will enable you to drop some of the extra stuff you have to feed? I have to admit that even my TB’s did well on a hay/ grain diet and I never needed that other stuff.

[One_Two_Three]

[QUOTE=candyappy;8256268]
It sounds like all you plan to do is switch from beet pulp to senior a feed? You won’t save any cost on that or make much difference to those who have to feed it.

Can you find a higher calorie feed that will enable you to drop some of the extra stuff you have to feed? I have to admit that even my TB’s did well on a hay/ grain diet and I never needed that other stuff.[/QUOTE]

The main reason for the beep switch is because he doesn’t like it, and it’s a pain in the butt for BO to soak it, the stall mess afterwards is ridiculous, and he’s just not getting much from it. Beep is $14 for 25lbs. He gets 1lb a day right now, 1050 calories. Seminole Wellness Senior is $22 for 50lbs. Breaking it down pound by pound and senior is cheaper.

I keep the fiber force because it’s a forage based concentrate. It’s notable to add that hay has not officially been weighed (everything else has)…I place about half a bale of hay in his haynet and it takes him 12-18 hours to clean it out. The bales aren’t overly heavy right now, maybe 50lbs? I’m not sure, so the hay is an estimate. He started on getting extra alfalfa hay, but didn’t care for it. Pellets he loves. Alfalfa is very expensive by me, over $23 per bale. His daily hay is $14 a bale. Which is why he switched to pellets, as an extra acid buffer and calorie addition, in a tasty pellet he will eat.

I don’t want to go full senior because when I switched him to a full concentrate when he first came to me, his poop was awful. It was cow patty, stayed cow patty, and had no sign of not being cow patty. Not until I switched him back to fiberforce did it firm up enough for me to not be concerned enough to call the vet. The feedstuff he’s on works well for him, and I’m hesitant to switch him to anything else. I’d rather just supplement him and give a little senior to replace the beep. At least until I know more about how his body is responding… I’m looking for an easy way to up calories cheaper than the beep in a more satisfying way for the horse…I guess maybe an increase in alf pellets wouldn’t be so bad, I mean his manure is neon green as is, so what’s a little more alfalfa, right? I hope that makes sense (in a hurry!)

[IPEsq]

What about no BP, no senior, no U-Gard, and replace or supplement the pellets with more weight of alfalfa cubes if the $ breakdown is less than adding more hay? Could you up the fat? The Calvalor instructions are to feed 0.5-2kg/day for weight gain. 0.5kg is 2x as much as you are feeding.

Does he need a slow feed net, or can he use a regular net without wasting too much?

[One_Two_Three]

[QUOTE=IPEsq;8256364]
What about no BP, no senior, no U-Gard, and replace or supplement the pellets with more weight of alfalfa cubes if the $ breakdown is less than adding more hay? Could you up the fat? The Calvalor instructions are to feed 0.5-2kg/day for weight gain. 0.5kg is 2x as much as you are feeding.

Does he need a slow feed net, or can he use a regular net without wasting too much?[/QUOTE]

For the whole gain: the 1/2 pound for weight gain was what I was instructed to feed by Cavalor during the month trial I did with them for it. It was a trial to see how wholegain and fiberforce work together for a horse with GI issues. I actually just recently got him up to 1/2 pound, for the whole trial he was at 1/4 pound. My horse is very sensitive to fat, and the 1/2 pound was causing digestive upset, it seems to be okay now that he’s on Succeed while eating it.

He needs the slow feed net because without it, hay is strewn about the stall.

I’d be open to cubes, but he won’t eat them. HATES soaked things (Beep only manageable because I mix the pellets NOT soaked with them) won’t eat the alf cubes dry… which is how I got onto the pellets, which are like his crack.

I like the FiberForce. I like the alf pellets as a buffer for his tummy while adding calories. He’s free to eat as much hay as he pleases, from the haynet. This is just what he seems to average while in stall. Hay net is usually empty every evening, or before noon the next morning when he’s in again.

I don’t plan on dropping the UGard, it seems to work well to keep his stomach happy. No ulcers there. Just dealing with hindgut problems which is why I’ve got to be careful about the types of things I do and don’t try with him

[poltroon]

I think you definitely can make this less complicated. If it were me I’d probably just substitute in alfalfa pellets for the beet pulp poundage and call it done.

Like you, I found that beet pulp is actually more expensive now than a formulated senior food with a beet pulp base. Given that, I don’t think it makes a lot of sense to go to extra trouble to feed it.

There are lots of different kinds of senior feeds. You don’t say which you tried, but even at my podunk location I can choose between around 6 formulations. Maybe just try a different one - but for myself I personally would just increase other things that you are already feeding, or use the senior in place of some other feed.

[IPEsq]

I guess I don’t see the point of UGard pellets for stomach buffering if you are feeding the quantity of alfalfa you are making available.

You could probably get in more % protein by switching to a different ration balancer type product or a combination of that and a less than full serving of a beep based senior.

[Simbalism]

I have two TB’s, one is an 8yo OTTB and the other is 21yo. I previously had them on Southern States Sport Horse Plus. Older mare was doing fine on this( had been on it for years). The younger mare was interesting to get weight on, she doesn’t like beet pulp, would eat a little bit of alfalfa pellets. She would also only eat about a pound of grain per meal. After a year, I had her looking ok, but still wanted a little more weight on her as she looked a little ribby. The end of May, I weaned both of them over to the Seminole Senior. The young horse gets 2lbs per day and has gained the last bit of weight she needed. The older mare was getting 2lbs per day, but was looking a little ribby, so just increased her ration to 3lbs per day. They are on pasture board with decent grass pastures. I also give both of them a bucket of alfalfa forage almost every day. My plan for the older mare is to see how the increase does for her over the next few weeks. If no change, I may change her back to the SS feed. I was trying to prevent having to go to two different places to get feed. Both of them are in moderate work, being ridden about 5 days per week each.
In the past, I was trying to calculate my horse’s hay intake. I took a bathroom scale to the barn, placed hay in a net and held it on the scale to get an eyeball idea of amount I needed to feed. I tried samples of the Cavalor feed when I was thinking about changing grain. The horses liked it fine, but if I remember correctly it is more expensive than the Seminole.

[Simkie]

Most senior feeds are “forage based”, so it’s odd to me that he would do so poorly on something like that and so well on the Cavalor.

If he’s sane about his alfalfa pellets and doesn’t bolt them, I’d be tempted to offer those near free-choice (or up that piece as much as you need) and just keep the hay and the grain you like. I’d personally not bother with the joint supplement, and it might be worthwhile to try ditching the electrolite for a little while, as that can be upsetting to the gut for some.

If you want to weigh your hay, I use this scale and like it quite a bit: http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-Scale-Digital-0-05-Pounds/dp/B0012TDR9E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1438637967&sr=8-1&keywords=hanging+scale

[JB]

@One Two Three;8256217

Grass overnight
(don’t calculate calories, feel like it’s not enough intake to make a difference)

Does he also have his hay available overnight?

I’d like to introduce a senior feed into his diet. My top choice at this time, due both to ingredients, price, and availability, is Seminole Wellness Senior Mix. This feed packs 1,465 calories per pound, and 1 pound is 1 quart. I could easily feed 2 pounds a day and cut the other two while saving money and feeding something the horse is happier eating.

I too would just switch to the Seminole. It is also fiber-based, and more cal/lb than the Cavalor. The Cavalor is a fortified chopped forage, which means it takes longer to eat. He needs a higher calorie:volume ratio

[Scaramouch]

I would also lose the FiberForce and replace both Cavalor products and the beet pulp with the Seminole.

Can you replace the alfalfa pellets with a chopped forage (like Seminole Wellness Equi-Safe or Triple Crown Alfa-Lox) to provide more long-stem fiber? Both of those products are bound to be less expensive than the FiberForce, though lower in fat - you would be adding more fat through the Seminole senior anyway.

[seabreeze]

I haven’t read the others’ responses, but my first thought was go to a reputable senior feed and double or triple his alfalfa pellets (and keep the hay in front of him). Good luck!

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=One Two Three;8256217]
Hey all, often I pop on here with random questions, when I need to discuss through something, etc…

I’ve finally gotten my horse to a place where I’m seeing positive changes in his body condition (he’s NOT in terrible shape, it’s just a learning curve for me and a transitory curve for the OTTB)

I’ve been throwing some ‘stuff’ into his feeding to add calories, but it’s really time that I simplify it all down, from a cost standpoint and the BO’s sanity, plus using what I know about my horse’s eating habits.

So, for starters, here is what he is currently getting:

Succeed (on the 60 day challenge)
Actiflex 4000 (joint)
Electrolytes
UGard Pellets

I’ve done all the number crunching and breaking down of everything so hopefully those willing to help can easily follow:

Cavalor Fiberforce:
6 pounds a day (5724 calories)

Alfalfa Pellets:
3 pounds a day (2910 calories)

Cavalor WholeGain Supplement:
1/2 pound a day (763 calories)

Beet Pulp:
1 pound a day (1050 calories)

Timothy/Alfalfa/Orchard Hay:
Offered in a slow feed haynet freechoice, seems to eat roughly 16-20 pounds a day (13,600 calories on the low end)

Grass overnight
(don’t calculate calories, feel like it’s not enough intake to make a difference)

For a grand total of 24,047 calories a day.
Light-Moderate working horse, should probably get around 25,000 calories a day to maintain, gain if in light work.

My master plan is to cut the beet pulp. He hates it. He deals with it because I put his (beloved) alfalfa pellets mixed in after it’s been soaked, but he flings it everywhere, attracts flies, and isn’t likely getting his 1,000 calories a day from it. I also want to cut the WholeGain, because I feel as though it’s not contributing quite enough calories to his diet to be worth the price. This means I’ll be in about an 1800 calorie deficit.

I’d like to introduce a senior feed into his diet. My top choice at this time, due both to ingredients, price, and availability, is Seminole Wellness Senior Mix. This feed packs 1,465 calories per pound, and 1 pound is 1 quart. I could easily feed 2 pounds a day and cut the other two while saving money and feeding something the horse is happier eating.

Is there any reason that I’m missing, that this ISNT a good switch to make? Remember, he hates beep, he’s on a high fiber food as his main feed (the cavalor fiberforce) so extra fiber missed from the beep isn’t an issue…

or any other thoughts? Looking at ways to save money while simplifying based on the amount of bags he has in the feed room

Notable to add that he is indeed getting enough of the FiberForce to provide him with his daily value needs, so the small amount of senior will not be his main source of nutrients, just a calorie boost.[/QUOTE]

Cut the beet pulp, up the hay. If he has TEETH, he can & should eat hay.
Cut the joint supps, double-blind studies show they’re not even absorbed.
There was a recent thread that showed vanishingly few need electrolytes.
If he’s out 12 hours or more per day, doubtful you need the U-Gard either.

I’d keep good-quality grass hay in front of him ALL the time, supplemented with alfalfa hay or pellets as need be, and feed a good 14/6 pellet for “grain.”

A lot of this stuff is fashionable fad, not biological need.

[Flash44]

Ditto the above, and why feed a slow feed hay net if he needs to gain or maintain?? I’d use a haynet that allows him to eat more hay. If he cleans out one haynet and no one is around to refill it, hang two. It’s usually the healthiest and most economical way to feed.

[Simkie]

[QUOTE=Flash44;8256945]
Ditto the above, and why feed a slow feed hay net if he needs to gain or maintain?? I’d use a haynet that allows him to eat more hay. If he cleans out one haynet and no one is around to refill it, hang two. It’s usually the healthiest and most economical way to feed.[/QUOTE]

My horses eat MORE with a slow feed net. Fed hay loose or in a “regular” hay net, the mares pee all over it and sleep in it and leave it for me to toss.

Slow feed nets don’t usually = less food into the horse, IME, unless perhaps you’re using one of the really small ones.

[veezee]

I agree, more quality hay and a good senior feed would be your easiest route. My 29 year old still has all of his teeth but he loves his senior feed mixed with water. Hope whatever you choose to do works.

[One_Two_Three]

Hey all! Thanks for the many responses.

To answer a few questions:
NO he does not have access to his hay overnight for the ~12 hours he’s turned out on grass at night. I’d love to give him a round bale, but he has a paddock buddy who has a very rough colic past and the owner is against any ‘different’ hay being fed to this horse, so until another paddock opens up or we can figure something out (trying to plan now for winter) that’s kind of out of the question for us, unfortunately. I’ve offered to buy whatever her horse is eating, but she was still adamant about not allowing her horse to get extra hay (?).

I’m feeding him in a slow net haynet because he started out in a normal sized one, and didn’t eat as much, but played with it a LOT more, ripping huge chunks out and distributing it in his pee and poop areas. The slow feed net does a great job of holding in this looser hay (over the winter and beginning of spring it’s much stalk-ier, this is 1st cut really pretty but lighter/finer so there is much more waste involved) and also keeps him busy during the day. At one point he was chewing the wood on his stall, and since this net makes him work constantly to get the hay he desires, he’s stopped chewing wood. The net is filled to the top, and on an average day, he either completely empties it or has enough to make it through noon the next day…depends on him, depends on who fills the net, and depends on the hay. He’s allowed to have as much as he wants in the net, and this seems to be about what he’s maxed out at. I’d love to feed it on the floor, I’d rather him eat it off the floor, but for the amount of hay he’s getting, I can’t stomach the cost of the waste when he’s got 1/2 to 3/4 a bale in his stall per day.

Okay so for the next issue, the food he WAS on:
When I got him, he came to me eating 4 quarts FiberForce and 3 quarts Tiz Wiz Senior per feeding, UGard powder, and 1 flake of alfalfa hay per feeding. He was turned out for his let-down in a big pasture of 12 OTTBs, had free choice access to coastal round bale, and sparse grass. He was going through his goofy post-racing body changes. Losing muscle, trying to gain weight, etc. But this program worked well for him. Initially I was unattracted to his feed regiment due to price. I obviously couldn’t offer him 24/7 pasture, and I can’t offer him 24/7 hay right now. Just for the time he’s in his stall. So, In an effort to (what I thought was) save money, I transitioned him onto Seminole Wellness Perform Safe. We made the switch and his manure was cow patty. For the next 2 months it stayed that way. He didn’t lose weight but he didn’t gain. I was feeding him nearly 16 pounds of perform safe a day! This was a HUGE quantity of a concentrate and likely reversing any healing his hind gut had just started doing from getting off the race horse crack sweet feed. I tried to cut the feed and add a ration balancer for calories. Now he was getting nutrient overload. Eventually I got so fed up that I contacted his previous owner about planning a new feeding regiment for him. She really urged me to try the FiberForce again, she is a huge believer in if it works…use it…and it did. I swapped him back onto it, and literally 2 days into the switch his poop improved dramatically. I was offered to do a trial with Cavalor for their new product, the WholeGain. He was a good test subject because he is so sensitive to fat. They wanted to see what kind of results we would see feeding the amount I described previously, while feeding FiberForce. Anyhow…long story short, I switched him back to FF and it’s worked for him so I’m hesitant to take him back off. Feeding Seminole actually costed me about the same as it costs me to feed FiberForce. He goes through 5 bags of FiberForce a month, and when he was eating Seminole Perform Safe, he was eating nearly 10 bags a month. $35 x 5= $175 vs $22 x 9.5=$209.

Anyhow, I realize that senior is meant to be fed in larger quantities, right? So it could be that he was getting overloaded on nutrients from the Perform Safe, but might not have the same fate with senior…I’m just very nervous to make those changes, because there were times when we were really concerned for the horse. I mean mathematically it makes sense to feed the senior vs ff because of the calorie difference…but what if there’s just something to the FF that’s working for his belly, that senior isn’t going to do?

I guess I could work him up on the senior and see how his body is responding to it…I just replenished his month’s worth of FF, but I could buy a bag of senior and start giving it to him as a test…He’s had a few lunch meals of alf pellets and a pound of the senior I want to feed with no ill affects.

Okay now I’m just rambling. Anyhow, someone mentioned giving free choice alf pellets…I’d love to do this. He can down 3lbs of alf pellets (when not mixed with the icky beep) in about 15 minutes. He chews them, I’m not concerned with choke or anything like that as the pellets are just barely larger than a normal concentrate pellet, but that would cost me big bucks, if he continued to clean them up that quickly, however I can add another 3lbs to his dinner feeding.

Okay anyhow…so say I wanna try doing a mix of senior and fiber force to start. Do I add the senior to his current ration, essentially helping him gain weight, and as I start to run low on fiber force, gradually replace the fiber force ration with the senior? I’m just so scared to make a big change to his food, considering last time it was really awful.

As for taking him off the supplements…I’m not worried about simplifying that. I just added it in the information so people were aware what he was getting. I know there’s huge controversy on what does and does not work with joint supplements. However, Actiflex 4000 really has made a huge difference for this horse and my last horse. He has race wear and tear. He was stiff and clicky when I got him. Two weeks on the loading dose and he’s been moving like butter since. Ran out for a week and saw a huge difference almost instantly. I’m convinced it works, so I’m willing to pump my money into it … UGard, he came to me on. Old owner said it was imperative to keep him on it. It’s cheap enough that I’ve done just that. Maybe in the future I’d consider taking him off. He gets half the recommended dose. Electrolytes are new. He started those when he started the Beep. There was a lot of debating over them, but in the heat of the florida summer and seeing just how much he was sweating during our lessons, I decided for the marginal price it wouldn’t hurt. He did not receive electrolytes when he was having big stomach issues.

Okay. wow. this is super long. Sorry!!

[Simkie]

If you feel like he’s not getting enough grass at night to even play into your calorie counts, and there’s no hay available during that time, that’s a big problem, and likely the root of your issue here. He’s not taking in appreciable calories for half his day.

Fix that, and I bet that will be the end of his weight problems.

[One_Two_Three]

[QUOTE=Simkie;8257260]
If you feel like he’s not getting enough grass at night to even play into your calorie counts, and there’s no hay available during that time, that’s a big problem, and likely the root of your issue here. He’s not taking in appreciable calories for half his day.

Fix that, and I bet that will be the end of his weight problems.[/QUOTE]

While I don’t disagree, I’m having a hard time figuring out whether he does receive substance from the grass he eats or not. I’m no grass expert…that’s for sure! SO, here is the best picture I can find that shows the grass that he has access to at night.
HERE
and for reference of size of paddock HERE

grass isn’t the longest, but it doesn’t appear as overgrazed as it does at the beginning of spring…The grass takes much longer to get going, at least this year.

maybe this will help.

but yes I agree he could benefit from hay at night. I just have to figure out how exactly to do that for him!