His xrays look great, but I was finally tired of all the guesswork and had an mri done yesterday. Showed lesions on fibrocartilage in the navicular area, as well as on the ddfts. In addition, he has a tear in his left ddft. The vet also said that his coffin bone is parallel to the ground not pointing down slightly as apparently it is supposed to. They are recommending 3 degree wedge pads for him and this is the reason for my post. I have read horrible things about them, and I don’t understand how they would help getting the heel to land first. It seems like it would do the opposite. Another factor is I thought navicular was caused by a lack of circulation and wouldn’t lifting the heel up cause even less circulation. The third compelling factor here is that when he is REALLY sore, he stands parked out, which must feel the best to him. That seems to be an opposite action to lifting the heels. Thoughts anyone??
Ha yes, thanks. I have read all of these articles … several times in the past couple of years, in fact. I really tried to do the barefoot thing, boots, pads, the whole 9 yards. He has good feet (at least on the outside) I tried for probably 6 months, but finally gave in to shoes, because it was becoming painful for me to watch him move. He currently wears Natural Balance shoes and was doing well with them for a while at least
Natural balance makes a wedge shoe, not sure of the actual degrees but I have used it on one of mine in the past with success.
It can be difficult to keep healthy heels (and digital cushion) with wedges and pads. I’ve had one that could not tolerate the pressure of a pad directly on the frog. When he needed a pad, we ended up using a rim pad between the shoe and the pad (leather I believe), and also a pad with a rim pad built into it to give a little space so the pad was not directly on his heels and frog. The farrier put some packing in there as well (magic cushion if I am remembering correclty…it has been a while). We also kept a short cycle - 4 weeks - because this horse was also a high/low one who got out of whack much more quickly shod than barefoot. At any rate, when we did eventually pull the shoes and go back to barefoot, his frogs and heels were as healthy or better than when we started, so it can be done. But you are correct, most of my experiences with shoes and pads, and most that I have seen have resulted in contracted heels and atrophied frogs.
Have you talked to your farrier yet about the vet recommendations? Maybe your farrier will have some insights for you. When you say your horse stands parked out, is he rocking back on his hinds to relieve weight on the front?
I have a horse with naivcular as well. If you have questions about the mechanics and the expected results, ask your vet. If he/she cannot satisfy you with answers, get a second opinion. Navicular is best treated without delay so make a choice and go with it. Ask for a timeline as to what to expect and how soon. Don’t be surprised if the timeline is fuzzy. Navicular is complicated. As long as progress is being made by whatever vet you choose, stay committed to that treatment plan. Follow it to the letter.
My horse was treated at a local university hospital/vet school. He went from a grade 3 lameness down to a grade 1. We tried about four different treatment plans, including injections and corrective shoes (although, I did not spring for the MRI, so they were working blind). The shoes were only on for about four months. Now, he’s barefoot and doing fairly well.
Good luck to you and your horse!
The vet also said that his coffin bone is parallel to the ground not pointing down slightly as apparently it is supposed to.
[QUOTE=suddenly711;7180101]
… He has good feet (at least on the outside) [/QUOTE]
Good feet start from the inside. Do you mean he has a low or zero palmar angle on his fronts?
Did the xrays reveal that in fact more toe can be taken back? Sometimes from the outside, the toe looks short enough, but when seen from the structural standpoint (i.e. xrays) more toe can safely be taken back.
I can’t comment on the navicular part of it, but I can say that I have a horse who’s been in wedge pads for 3 years now and has done (and is still doing) quite well. When I moved this horse up to the big jumpers we did x-rays of his feet and decided to put him in the wedges. My farrier played around with different manners of accomplishing the wedge including wedge shoes, equilox wedges, and different types of pads and we finally settled on a set-up that worked well (which changes based on the show season/time of the year).
My (brilliant) farrier moved to Arizona 2 years into my guy’s wedging and I had a very poor farrier take over for about 6 months time. In that 6 months he managed to absolutely destroy my guy’s feet. I fired him a few cycles in and when my new (very good) farrier pulled off the pads he gasped out loud. His heels were completely crushed and underrun (the bars of his heels were at the mid-point of his foot). He managed to bring my guy back to healthy feet…still in the wedge pads. But to SuckerForHorses point, we had to do x-rays again to show my farrier how far back to take the toe (which way WAY further than it appeared from the outside).
So my point is that wedge pads are not the end of the world, and with a good farrier you can maintain a healthy foot despite wedging the heels (the “good farrier” part is kind of important, though!). It certainly took some tweaking with my guy, but with that tweaking we found a set-up that achieves what I thought would be impossible…a horse who’s way of going has been improved AND feet that are not degrading with every shoeing cycle in wedges.
[QUOTE=SuckerForHorses;7180185]
Good feet start from the inside. Do you mean he has a low or zero palmar angle on his fronts?
Did the xrays reveal that in fact more toe can be taken back? Sometimes from the outside, the toe looks short enough, but when seen from the structural standpoint (i.e. xrays) more toe can safely be taken back.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, SuckerForHorses, I am not sure what you mean by a palmar angle. His coffin bone is pretty much parallel to the ground, and the vet said the toe should be down more. So if you mean the angle from the tip of the coffin bone to the bottom back part of the coffin bone, then yes, it is basically 0. My farrier takes back the toe quite a bit, so there may be some more room there, (I will show her the xrays, and see what she thinks), but it didn’t look abnormally long
Feel your pain PNWJumper. I went through a bad farrier experience… only once, but enough that he stripped by boy’s sole almost bare… grrrr. Frustrating! Glad to know a good result from wedge pads, like yours. Microbovine, we did bursa injections yesterday. Thanks for your story. Glad to know barefoot is possible. The vet that did the MRI said no way ever for my guy :(.
[QUOTE=meaty ogre;7180156]
Natural balance makes a wedge shoe, not sure of the actual degrees but I have used it on one of mine in the past with success.
It can be difficult to keep healthy heels (and digital cushion) with wedges and pads. I’ve had one that could not tolerate the pressure of a pad directly on the frog. When he needed a pad, we ended up using a rim pad between the shoe and the pad (leather I believe), and also a pad with a rim pad built into it to give a little space so the pad was not directly on his heels and frog. The farrier put some packing in there as well (magic cushion if I am remembering correclty…it has been a while). We also kept a short cycle - 4 weeks - because this horse was also a high/low one who got out of whack much more quickly shod than barefoot. At any rate, when we did eventually pull the shoes and go back to barefoot, his frogs and heels were as healthy or better than when we started, so it can be done. But you are correct, most of my experiences with shoes and pads, and most that I have seen have resulted in contracted heels and atrophied frogs.
Have you talked to your farrier yet about the vet recommendations? Maybe your farrier will have some insights for you. When you say your horse stands parked out, is he rocking back on his hinds to relieve weight on the front?[/QUOTE]
Yes, farrier coming today, and we will have a long discussion. When really sore, he is parked out, like a morgan fronts forward of his body, backs in back of his body. Yes, it looks like either he’s relieving weight off the front (which is a big reason I’m questioning the wedges). He most recently had the NB shoes with a full leather pad, with packing. He seemed fine with the pressure on his frogs, but yes, the vet suggesting 3 degree rim pad.
My friends horse has navicular and he is in 2 degree wedges. He is doing well in them. He was barefoot and he was able to be managed for a couple years after diagnosis barefoot with a very excellent corrective farrier but eventually he did have to go to wedges but they have made him more comfortable and he can still be ridden. He is not being jumped anymore, semi retired because he is 20 but a nice hack around here and there he does well. They do have tildron now that has had some success if wanted to ask the vet about that.
[QUOTE=suddenly711;7180363]
Yes, farrier coming today, and we will have a long discussion. When really sore, he is parked out, like a morgan fronts forward of his body, backs in back of his body. Yes, it looks like either he’s relieving weight off the front (which is a big reason I’m questioning the wedges). He most recently had the NB shoes with a full leather pad, with packing. He seemed fine with the pressure on his frogs, but yes, the vet suggesting 3 degree rim pad.[/QUOTE]
http://www.horseshoesandtools.com/naturalbalanceplrwedge.aspx
If he’s going well in the nb shoe with the leather pad and packing, maybe try the wedge nb shoe. With navicular, treatments are definitely not one-size fits all, and what works for one horse may make another dead lame. Changing only one parameter at a time is the best way to pinpoint what is and is not working.
Interesting about your horse’s stance…seems more inidicative of laminitis than heel pain but hard to tell without seeing it in person. Although it’s not unheard of for horses to become sore elsewhere in compensation for the original source of the pain.
Interesting about your horse’s stance…seems more inidicative of laminitis than heel pain but hard to tell without seeing it in person. Although it’s not unheard of for horses to become sore elsewhere in compensation for the original source of the pain.
Having had a few with navicular, I know the OP’s description does match a horse trying to “rest” a front foot. Like toe pointing without much weight on the actual foot to give it a rest. Mine would alternate each front foot like this, like they can rest a hind.
Thanks for the comments you guys. Farrier didn’t know anything about the NB wedge shoe. Thanks for letting me know. I really like the NBs, so it is definitely something I will check out. I did a google search but couldn’t find degree of wedge. It looks like they only have one? Does anyone know?
My farrier’s recommendation was to go with exactly what the vet said. She was like, ‘you spent all this money, you might as well follow her advice, and see how he does. One shoeing isn’t going to hurt him’ (as long as all his angles are right), and she always makes sure they are. Hmmmm, she had a point there… so that’s what we did. Regular Nbs with 3 degree wedge rim pads. They look a little odd, but he does seem to be going well in them(comfortable) when I was hand walking him. Of course, he is on bute today and tomorrow after his ‘procedure’, so we’ll see how he looks when he’s drug free:).
Thanks again for your help. I’ll check in again and let you know how he’s doing.
I have been so pleased with Epona shoes. My mare was lame for more than a year with heel pain. Now she is been back in training, staying sound and is making progress.
The Eponas support the bony column because they fit under the frog. Because they are a closed shoe, I think they have a slight lift effect to the heels, but they do not crush them. My girl has big open healthy-looking frogs. Also the shoes are soft enough that the shoer can file a generous bevel into the toe to enhance breakover, which reduces the moment of stress on the navicular and ddft.
I love the idea of using materials that cushion the impact. Its like having portable rubber footing. I have had zero problem with lost shoes. Her shoes stay on until we pull them off. My shoer uses glue and four nails on each shoe.
Her flare is gone, her palmar angle keeps getting better and she has good sole depth with some cup to her foot now. I have a great shoer who trained directly with Epona.
Before the Eponas, I tried wedges because the vet suggested them, but I was also very nervous about crushing her heels. Anyway, we had problems with her stepping on them. THe last time she stepped her wedged shoe off she went very lame. I think she wrenched her foot. I also tried barefoot with a very good barefoot pro, but her feet stayed sore, pancakey and thin soled.
Edited to add:
If the ddft is torn, should your horse be on stall rest?
Did vet offer PRP injection to help it heal?
We did wedge pads for both of our navicular horses for a while and found them helpful. A good farrier can go over all of your options, and then try different things until you find what works. We ended up deciding the best option for the one horse was rim wedge pads and pour in pads with a natural balance type shoe for the other. Now, they are both barefoot, but old (25 and 28) and not in work. We also have done navicular bursa injections, Tildren injected just into the legs/regional perfusions, IRAP, coffin joint injections, and lots of other treatments to keep them sound.
[QUOTE=Helicon;7181800]
I have been so pleased with Epona shoes. My mare was lame for more than a year with heel pain. Now she is been back in training, staying sound and is making progress.
The Eponas support the bony column because they fit under the frog. Because they are a closed shoe, I think they have a slight lift effect to the heels, but they do not crush them. My girl has big open healthy-looking frogs. Also the shoes are soft enough that the shoer can file a generous bevel into the toe to enhance breakover, which reduces the moment of stress on the navicular and ddft.
I love the idea of using materials that cushion the impact. Its like having portable rubber footing. I have had zero problem with lost shoes. Her shoes stay on until we pull them off. My shoer uses glue and four nails on each shoe.
Her flare is gone, her palmar angle keeps getting better and she has good sole depth with some cup to her foot now. I have a great shoer who trained directly with Epona.
Before the Eponas, I tried wedges because the vet suggested them, but I was also very nervous about crushing her heels. Anyway, we had problems with her stepping on them. THe last time she stepped her wedged shoe off she went very lame. I think she wrenched her foot. I also tried barefoot with a very good barefoot pro, but her feet stayed sore, pancakey and thin soled.
Edited to add:
If the ddft is torn, should your horse be on stall rest?
Did vet offer PRP injection to help it heal?[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the tip. I’ll look into the eponas. I have heard of them… found out about them when one farrier (bad one), went ballistic on me and the horse bc he kept pulling his foot away, so the guy refused to shoe him. But I don’t think many farriers (at least around here) do them. I didn’t realize the palmar angle could be changed, so that is good to know as well.
Vet said stall rest for 2 days, then he can go out in his small in/out. No big paddock for a while, but physical therapy in the form of hand walking for 10-20 mins, twice a day… which he absolutely loves… haha, licking and chewing the whole time we are walking the bog roads. I think he thinks he’s a dog now:) Feel bad about the turnout though… he loves grazing in the big paddock, and 99.9% of the time is very sane and calm, but then there’s than .1%, so I’m following vet’s advice.
Vet mentioned PRP, but thought shock wave would be more beneficial in this case, so that’s what we are doing there. Crossing fingers that will work.
First, I am sorry your horse has navicular. I’m sure you are reading like mad to find out what may work because you care for your horse. I have done the same and found there is a lot of information out there. I found so many different thoughts on it and why they got it in the first place. It can be overwhelming.
I have two of my horses that have navicular on Previcox and bar shoes and pads. They are doing well considering they have navicular. Talk to your vet about Previcox. Since you are feeding bute I would give Ranidadine or Gastro Guard.
I have one of my other horses in a pad called a Combi pad. I think it’s a pretty amazing invention.
I have always been an advocate of bare foot because that is really how our horses are designed to function; but saying that we ask them to do things that are not so natural. I feel that is often reason for the navicular in the first place.
http://www.e-petalo.gr/en/p-p-plast-combi-pad/
I think these are pretty great because the metal shoe will protect the hoof wall as needed for riding and jumping etc; the rubber back allows the heel and frog to function.
The shoe is cut in half and nailed on top of the combi pad.
It may be worth a try… Good luck!
These are NB wedged shoes. My navicular horse is in the flat version with a 3 degree pad, but we have used the wedge version in the past. They are PLR shoes which provide easier breakover from side to side as well as in the front.
http://www.shopedss.com/products/Aluminum-Performance-Leverage-Reduction-(PLR)-Shoes.html
[QUOTE=LDavis104;7183362]
These are NB wedged shoes. My navicular horse is in the flat version with a 3 degree pad, but we have used the wedge version in the past. They are PLR shoes which provide easier breakover from side to side as well as in the front.
http://www.shopedss.com/products/Aluminum-Performance-Leverage-Reduction-(PLR)-Shoes.html[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the link. My horse is now in the same as yours. My farrier didn’t know about and didn’t have the NB wedge shoe. Do you know what the degree of the wedge is?? I can’t find it online anywhere. Also, have you heard anything about or ever used the NB Frog wedge pads?
