Help with collection.

Hello everyone.

I have a lovely 6 yr old Caspian X mare that I have been working with. We are coming along completely wonderful.

We have been working a lot on our trot and its now at a point that it is consistent and at an even tempo and speed. She has a lovely natural headset, the next step is working on our collection.

She is progressing well enough, not rushing her at all. She can hold on to a collection for about 10 or so strides. She is rounding up, bringing in her back end and dropping her head, when she gets into that cadence is it the smoothest trot I have ridden. Everyday she gets a little better, so here is the question…

What can I do to help her hold on a little bit longer. I don’t want to rush her, but perhaps there is more I can be doing to support her both on the ground and mounted.

Thanks everyone.

(Here we are at our last show in Oct)

I’ve started schooling in a snaffle bit. What bit do you use for schooling?

She is really dumped on her forehand and curled behind in that photo. I realize she is too old to show in a snaffle, but if you are having to use the bit to slow her down, she isn’t ready for a curb and you may need to wait to show.

Exercises like shoulder in, haunches in, riding squares, figure-8s and so on will help her learn to use her hind end and stay more balanced. Lots of transitions between gaits, or within gaits will also help her, but try to make sure it is your seat that is holding her into a slower gait, or allowing the more forward gait rather than the bit. If you do need to use the bit/reins, make sure you only take for a moment, and then release so she learns that she can avoid the bit request by learning to listen to your seat.

Agree with above
Collection comes from behind, riding that horse with more legs than hands, and also with feel, while teaching the horse eventual self carriage.
That means you drive the horse up with your legs, just hold a slight bit barrier, and when that horse softens in your hands, you have to give total rein release, expecting the horse to continue in frame, collected and at the speed asked for. At first you might only get astride or so, until you have to hold and drive again, but done correctly, the horse will learn to stay correct for more and more strides
Also agree this horse is nowhere near ready for a curb bit, as she does not have the basics on her.
Your hands are also too low, esp riding with a curb. Many people try to force a low head carriage by holding their reins low, which will just dump a horse on his forehand.
When you get the correct movement from behind, with the horse learning to keep shoulders up and hocks engaged, that neck and head carriage just falls into place, with the horse relaxing and breaking at both the poll and the whithers, needing only a little tweek. Head carriage is the LAST part you work on, far as collection, as you can have a head set, like your horse, yet the horse is not collected and is heavy on his front end
The horse is not ready to show by any means. besides being on her forehand, you have her behind the vertical big time!

I find those photos very hard to figure out. Your post sounds like Dressae but I just saw this is in the Western Section. I am only viewing on the phone and it looks like a rider riding with a contraption as they have no arms.

I will also recommend a snaffle bit and raising the hands. For me collection means the poll should be the highest part of the neck and there should be a straight line from your elbows through your hands to the bit.

A word of advice - be very, very selective about the pictures you choose to post here. When I clicked on the link you posted, I was also able to see several other pictures of you and your horse. The one you chose to post was probably the worst possible choice of all. When you post a bad picture, that’s all anyone can focus on - even if that picture isn’t representative of how you usually look.

If you look at the picture you posted and don’t understand why it’s so bad, then please ask and I and others will be happy to talk about it with you.

In response to the specific question you asked, there are lots of things you can do to help strengthen your horse’s back and hindquarters in a way that will help her be better prepared physically to maintain collection, or, a better term, I think, especially for western riders who will be riding without contact, maintain “self-carriage.” These include transitions, lateral work, trotting ground poles, walking briskly down the trail (that head swinging, really stepping under with the hind legs walk), and hill work - walk up, don’t trot or canter, and don’t let your horse get strung out and haul himself up with his front end, make him push himself up with his hindquarters.

I find those photos very hard to figure out. Your post sounds like Dressage but I just saw this is in the Western Section. I am only viewing on the phone and it looks like a rider riding with a contraption as they have no arms.

I will also recommend a snaffle bit and raising the hands. For me collection means the poll should be the highest part of the neck and there should be a straight line from your elbows through your hands to the bit.

[QUOTE=ezduzit;7896348]
I’ve started schooling in a snaffle bit. What bit do you use for schooling?[/QUOTE]

She is riding a snaffle. She has a snaffle mouth piece on in this pic no curb bits.

[QUOTE=CHT;7896377]
She is really dumped on her forehand and curled behind in that photo. I realize she is too old to show in a snaffle, but if you are having to use the bit to slow her down, she isn’t ready for a curb and you may need to wait to show.

Exercises like shoulder in, haunches in, riding squares, figure-8s and so on will help her learn to use her hind end and stay more balanced. Lots of transitions between gaits, or within gaits will also help her, but try to make sure it is your seat that is holding her into a slower gait, or allowing the more forward gait rather than the bit. If you do need to use the bit/reins, make sure you only take for a moment, and then release so she learns that she can avoid the bit request by learning to listen to your seat.[/QUOTE]

The footing was too deep for her. She had a very hard time getting her hind end out of the footing. So it makes sense she is dumped on the front end.

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;7896545]
A word of advice - be very, very selective about the pictures you choose to post here. When I clicked on the link you posted, I was also able to see several other pictures of you and your horse. The one you chose to post was probably the worst possible choice of all. When you post a bad picture, that’s all anyone can focus on - even if that picture isn’t representative of how you usually look.

If you look at the picture you posted and don’t understand why it’s so bad, then please ask and I and others will be happy to talk about it with you.

In response to the specific question you asked, there are lots of things you can do to help strengthen your horse’s back and hindquarters in a way that will help her be better prepared physically to maintain collection, or, a better term, I think, especially for western riders who will be riding without contact, maintain “self-carriage.” These include transitions, lateral work, trotting ground poles, walking briskly down the trail (that head swinging, really stepping under with the hind legs walk), and hill work - walk up, don’t trot or canter, and don’t let your horse get strung out and haul himself up with his front end, make him push himself up with his hindquarters.[/QUOTE]

The picture was an accurate representation of what I work with at the show. I am not too concerned about my other photos I don’t think there’s anything in the others that are terrible or horrible that I should be worried. I know it’s not ideal it’s our second rated show and we will make mistakes it is how we learn.

Please feel free to pick it apart. I don’t mind at all. I can take the criticism and learn from it. When I get home I can post some at home training pics to compare.

[QUOTE=SuzieQNutter;7896552]
I find those photos very hard to figure out. Your post sounds like Dressage but I just saw this is in the Western Section. I am only viewing on the phone and it looks like a rider riding with a contraption as they have no arms.

I will also recommend a snaffle bit and raising the hands. For me collection means the poll should be the highest part of the neck and there should be a straight line from your elbows through your hands to the bit.[/QUOTE]

When I get home I will post some other photos and I would love to get some elaboration on my position. I do struggle with my position. I am being retrained as in the past I was taught to perch pretty on the horse and had no real seat. I have lovely equitation and soft quiet hands and legs but no real seat. I am developing that. We had to retrain my hands and it has changed since this pic. It’s also the first thing I forget in the line of many things to remember. I get very nervous instantly grip with my legs and forget everything but my heels.

If the bit has leverage (shanks ), it is not a snaffle. A jointed mouth piece alone does not designate a snaffle bit, but rather how that bit functions, leverage or non leverage
It is hard to tell how you are even holding those reins in that pic. I can’t see any other pictures , then the one posted
if you were riding with a snaffle, you should be riding with a bridge
Anyway, to try and help you, never have so much strong rein contact that your horse learns to drop behind the vertical, in order to get some bit relief
Drive your horse up with your legs, rewarding the horse when she softens in the face by releasing rein pressure. If you hold onto a horse all the time, that horse never learns self carriage, no even has a reason for trying to be correct, as the horse gets no reward
When you hold a horse like that, letting the horse lean on the bit, the horse will dump onto the forehand-race horses run like that-on the bit and on their forehand…
Doing exercises that instill body control, getting the horse soft in his entire body, will in turn build the strength a horse needs in order to move both in frame and collected, ridden mainly off of seat and legs
Thus, you will need to learn how to rate your horse, without pulling on the reins.
Riding squares was already mentioned. When you walk and trot those square corners, a horse has to keep his shoulders up, and take a few cross over steps
Lots of transitions , making the horse use herself correctly, versus moving up into the next gait by speeding up and falling into it out of forward momentum
I don’t know if you are loping this horse yet, but if you are, a great exercise that teaches a horse to use his back end, is to lope a circle or so, stop. Do a rollback to the outside of that circle,then pick up the opposite lead, without any trotting steps
For a horse to move collected, he has to lift his back, by contracting his abdominal muscles, drive up from behind, keep shoulders up, while the reins (bit) just contain the energy generated from behind, versus just letting it flow out the front. Think of the horse being compressed between legs and hands, but respecting that bit barrier so that he stays light in your hands.
For a westren horse, you work towards that one step further, tot he point where he will no longer need that rein support in order to remain collected.
In order to reach this point, you can’t ‘babysit’ the horse constantly between reins and legs.
When he is right, you have to reward him with total release, and trust him to stay correct. The horse will learn where that ‘safe zone’ is-a place that if he carries himself there, you in turn will leave him alone. Horses learn by that release from pressure

OK, then. Based solely on that picture, I would say:

Your hands are in your lap.

You look like you’re bracing against your stirrups, which is putting you in a chair seat and pushing your butt too far back in the saddle.

As a consequence of your hand position and the bracing, you look very stiff.

Your horse is on the forehand and overbent (nose is behind the vertical and the poll isn’t the highest point).

That bit is not a snaffle. I can see the shanks. It may have a broken mouthpiece, but that doesn’t make it a snaffle.

The saddle looks too small for you, although that appearance could be due to the bracing issue I mentioned above, which pushes your seat back.

You are very brave to put your picture out here for everyone to critique. I hope you find some of the suggestions people have made to be useful.

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;7896848]
OK, then. Based solely on that picture, I would say:

Your hands are in your lap.

You look like you’re bracing against your stirrups, which is putting you in a chair seat and pushing your butt too far back in the saddle.

I am indeed bracing into my stirrups, I was having a horrible time keeping my butt in the saddle, I was bouncing so much, in reality I should have put my stirrups down a hole. I have since done so and my butt stays in the saddle now.

As a consequence of your hand position and the bracing, you look very stiff.
I was very very tense and very very stiff and very very nervous. It was much better this time around for certain…if you can believe that! I will post some pictures starting from Feb of last year to the most recent one in a moment

Your horse is on the forehand and overbent (nose is behind the vertical and the poll isn’t the highest point).

She and I feed off each other and she was just as tense and nervous as I was and the she couldn’t gt her hind end out of the footing to save her life

That bit is not a snaffle. I can see the shanks. It may have a broken mouthpiece, but that doesn’t make it a snaffle.

I apologize for that, I was on my phone and it kept screwing up, I only meant to say it wasn’t a curb bit, but had a broken mouthpiece

The saddle looks too small for you, although that appearance could be due to the bracing issue I mentioned above, which pushes your seat back.

You are very brave to put your picture out here for everyone to critique. I hope you find some of the suggestions people have made to be useful.[/QUOTE]

(My responses in bold above)

We all have to start somewhere and without other eyes how can we improve??
I learned to ride finished show horses where all I had to to was perch and look pretty, the horse did all the work. So I am having to learn all over again. To see if I am on the right track I have to put myself out there and open myself up for critique.

it is a curb. The broken mouth piece does not make it a snaffle!!!
A curb bit can have various mouth piece configurations, included jointed, but those shanks make it a leverage bit-ie, curb

Photos in order of starting and HOPEFULLY showing improvement

February - Our second ever ride in a training fun show
http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx54/Gypsy_Song/8005_10102057666192347_1876372619_n_zps24b3436c.jpg

March - Our second fun/training show
http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx54/Gypsy_Song/1970525_10151924496001557_776047099_n_zpsb280b865.jpg

April - This was a practice show a friend put on, it was supposed to prepare us for a real show
http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx54/Gypsy_Song/10177398_679823095396689_7890196011101975626_n_zps68a58860.jpg

(lots of horses were worked in May and June. July I was on vacation and it rained the whole month. Its hard to get pictures of me riding as I am always behind the camera)

September - Just riding at the farm
http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx54/Gypsy_Song/10438920_10152233025066557_6617904483445612315_n_zps0cfc557e.jpg

October - Riding my Arab gelding - I just got him in October and I ride him and Lilly.
http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx54/Gypsy_Song/10636711_10152325751406557_8351221758880834951_o_zpscdddea02.jpg

Nothing from November other then a trail ride.

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7897028]
it is a curb. The broken mouth piece does not make it a snaffle!!!
A curb bit can have various mouth piece configurations, included jointed, but those shanks make it a leverage bit-ie, curb[/QUOTE]

I learn something new everyday :slight_smile: I thought a curb bit was a solid mouthpiece with a hump in the middle. I am restarting in all this and kinda relearning. My Mom didn’t train me very well I am learning.

What event are you training her for? Collection is a term used differently in different places.

How do you define it, actually?

[QUOTE=KSquared;7897031]
Photos in order of starting and HOPEFULLY showing improvement

February - Our second ever ride in a training fun show
http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx54/Gypsy_Song/8005_10102057666192347_1876372619_n_zps24b3436c.jpg

March - Our second fun/training show
http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx54/Gypsy_Song/1970525_10151924496001557_776047099_n_zpsb280b865.jpg

April - This was a practice show a friend put on, it was supposed to prepare us for a real show
http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx54/Gypsy_Song/10177398_679823095396689_7890196011101975626_n_zps68a58860.jpg

(lots of horses were worked in May and June. July I was on vacation and it rained the whole month. Its hard to get pictures of me riding as I am always behind the camera)

September - Just riding at the farm
http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx54/Gypsy_Song/10438920_10152233025066557_6617904483445612315_n_zps0cfc557e.jpg

October - Riding my Arab gelding - I just got him in October and I ride him and Lilly.
http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx54/Gypsy_Song/10636711_10152325751406557_8351221758880834951_o_zpscdddea02.jpg

Nothing from November other then a trail ride.[/QUOTE]

I hope this doesn’t come out wrong, just a critique of the pictures, pointing out that pictures are one second in time, the next one may paint a whole different story.
It will be long winded, there is so much to touch on first here, so set the premises I will be speaking from.

What pictures are good for is to educate our eyes, so we can see so much that is going on there and learn from that where we want to go, where we may be, what we can improve.

Riding is basically staying on top of a horse and getting the horse to do what we want it to do.
Some people are naturals at that, very talented at balance and understanding motion and horses and how to do that and can do so “from the seat of their pants”, without thinking.
Those are the people that don’t know horses have gaits or leads, but can feel a horse moving correctly and help it do so by feel.

Most humans don’t and there we have to learn the concepts of riding, what we want and how to get there.

Horsemanship has been about doing things the best way for the horse, the rider and the task at hands.

As soon as people get more involved with horses, we learn from others what we don’t know and adapt what we know to the new information.
I think you may be right now there, all of us are there at one time or another, I am there with reining now, know so much from other I have done, try to apply it to reining and, well, so much doesn’t, but other I have to learn now does.
Example, horse’s gaits don’t count in reining, that he does what he does, the reining movements, a certain, very specific way does.

Still, some basics are the same for most that ride, bar a few exceptions, basics that permit us to ride the best we can to help the horse perform for us.

Now, I will say, the first picture, you seem to be riding stiffly, with piano hands, which is not very effective for keeping true contact, which you don’t seen to have there.
The horse seems to be moving bracey and on it’s front end, not coming at all over it’s back into a soft, receiving hand.

Some like full cheek snaffles to be attached by keepers, I don’t after seeing x-rays of how hanging them so makes them stiff and keeps them from communicating as a snaffle needs to.
Good that yours are loose there.

If that picture was how your horse moves around all the time, I would say, we need to start on the longe line and teaching that horse the basics of reaching out and down, so it can start freeing it’s back and learning to work using itself better.

The second picture, your seat is much better and more effective, still piano hands on the reins, but a bit more clear, steady contact.
The horse is moving a bit better, still just cruising along, no softness there, although a bit more purposeful, not as bracey as the first picture, more true forward.

The third picture is one of those we all have that makes us cringe, seems that so much that can be wrong is wrong there.
The rider is very stiff, the horse is very stiff and resistant, as the rider seems to have asked for a half halt, maybe, the horse has hollowed it’s back, “gone duck” as we used to tease, pushing it’s front out to balance itself and the hind end is dragging somewhere behind there.

Then comes the fourth picture, where so much is right, the horse is much softer, stepping well under itself, trying to come up a bit in front, but is starting to cheat behind the bit if the rider doesn’t keep working with giving to hand and adding more leg and then holding a bit that energy in front, to again use more leg and giving, etc.
We can see that good picture starting to go because the horse is about to break at the third vertebrae, the poll is starting to curl, not any more the highest part.

That is the point that can determine if a rider is going to train a horse properly, or if it needs someone to help it get that important part of training a horse to use itself best, to collect.
If the next picture is showing the horse not keep falling onto the forehand and evading the bit by curling under, we are golden.
We don’t know what happened there, just from that one picture.

The rider there has better hand position, no flat piano hands, that keep the rider from properly using the wrists.
Upright hands with the thumbs on or near the top give more flexibility to what we can do with that line from elbow to horse’s mouth.

The last picture is a whole different horse, that may have better basic training and, there the angle is not so easy to see much, he seems to be working properly, the rider still seems stiff and with tentative contact, but in general, just seeing that picture, I would not have commented on all those other basics that seem to be questionable in the other pictures, with the other horse.

All that is a first impression, after looking more carefully, or seeing more, or better yet, seeing the rider in more than a few pictures, my opinion can very well change, is the nature of horses, working with them is not an exact science.

Also, it is true with horses, two horse people looking, at least three different opinions.

After being a riding instructor for decades, it is hard not to seem to keep picking at what is going on constantly, but that is what we were trained to do.
We learned to see what is going on and how to make it better and keep adjusting to the horse and rider as is happening, that is what was expected of being a teacher.

The way I see it, riding is something we can do best by being under instruction, to have a second set of eyes on the ground, because we really can’t see while riding all that is going on.
We can do much on our own, but having someone checking us out regularly is how we advance and correct what could be better.
The better reining trainers I know, they all go spend some days with another top trainer here and there, where both can help each other.
Working with BNTs, even they are expecting those around them to tell them what they see, is what helps getting better at it.