High Volume, High Quality Kennels

[Bicoastal]

Why do the different dog communities find this acceptable and should I, too?

A friend is getting a sport puppy from a kennel that had around half a dozen litters in 2014 and the same number is planned for 2015. There are around 30 adult dogs in residence. The parents are health tested and posted. Parents or grandparents have a variety of advanced sport titles; some dogs compete at national or international levels.

This kennel seems well-respected. There are similar examples in the breed world and in a variety of sports. I think my dog came from a similar situation.

Ruffly Speaking had a blog that explained breeders have to breed to get good at it. I hope some breeders and competitors from a variety of disciplines may chime in.

The numbers don’t sit well with me. It seems impossible for a mere mortal to care for that many dogs and to safeguard that many puppies spread out around the country.

[Preposterous_Ponies]

I got my Springer from a similar set-up. Driving in to pick up my pup was kind of like a weird horror movie - you were suddenly surrounded by dogs, staring at you. I probably wouldn’t have chosen this kennel if I didn’t know people who had dogs from them. I did discuss health problems that pop up in the breed with them, and what they were doing to improve the breed.

My pup is excellent - exactly as advertised, no health issues so far, and quickly turning into the “best dog ever”. Really a shining example of her breed, and everyone (both those who work with the breed and just every day people) remark on what a superb dog she is.

ETA: I should mention that they ALWAYS have a waiting list - there are not tens of pups waiting to go to a home.

[oliverreed]

I’ll be interested to see if Sonoma chimes in on this thread and what she has to say. Before I knew better, I got a couple (not both at the same time, serially) of my beloved Himalayan cats from breeders who were NOT up to snuff. And ended up with some heartbreaking health problems as a result.

[Simkie]

As long as they are proving their dogs in competition somehow, screening for health issues, socializing puppies appropriately and placing the puppies responsibly, I see nothing wrong with high volume. Impressive that it is sustainable.

I’d be suspicious that steps are being skipped, as you seem to be, but if everything checks out, tough to fault them for business being good and having a kennel that can produce.

[Marshfield]

I know of a couple hunting dog kennels similar to what you describe. The dogs are health tested, titled, etc. Puppies are well socialized. They are operating on a large enough scale to have full time staff to help with this.

Here’s part of what you don’t hear in the age of the adopt/don’t shop mantra. Demand for healthy puppies from titled and health tested parents greatly exceeds the supply created by small time hobby breeders. I could sell six litters of corgi puppies in a year based on the constant stream of puppy inquiries. I, however, would be exhausted, nor do I have any desire to keep that many bitches in my house.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Simkie;7826448]
As long as they are proving their dogs in competition somehow, screening for health issues, socializing puppies appropriately and placing the puppies responsibly, I see nothing wrong with high volume. Impressive that it is sustainable.

I’d be suspicious that steps are being skipped, as you seem to be, but if everything checks out, tough to fault them for business being good and having a kennel that can produce.[/QUOTE]

I agree - I don’t think it’s possible to actually prove your dogs in competition and breed them in high volume. I’d love to see a “high volume, high quality” breeder that really does this.

Maybe if you were very wealthy, you could afford to send your dogs out with pros at every level…conformation, field, etc. But, I don’t know many wealthy breeders. Even the best bred show dogs usually need to be shown a dozen times or more to finish a championship (usually more, in my opinion). A quality Field Champion in my breed is at least as many competitions - if not more, plus usually full time training.

I think it could be possible for someone to breed a high volume of health tested dogs, but that would probably be the only thing they did with the majority of their breeding animals.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Marshfield;7826474]
I know of a couple hunting dog kennels similar to what you describe. The dogs are health tested, titled, etc. Puppies are well socialized. They are operating on a large enough scale to have full time staff to help with this.

Here’s part of what you don’t hear in the age of the adopt/don’t shop mantra. Demand for healthy puppies from titled and health tested parents greatly exceeds the supply created by small time hobby breeders. I could sell six litters of corgi puppies in a year based on the constant stream of puppy inquiries. I, however, would be exhausted, nor do I have any desire to keep that many bitches in my house.[/QUOTE]

I believe that there are a handful of operations that actually do this right. It is definitely possible, but I’ve never heard of a breeder that does.

[Horsegal984]

This type of set up seems to be more common with hunting breeds. There’s a Lab kennel near me that probably has 30 dogs on property, but he may not own them all even if they’re bred/sold out of his kennel. He also does training and field trials the dogs, haven’t checked out his health testing info as I’m really not looking for a
lab but from what I’ve seen of his general set-up and the dogs in his care he seems reputable and the dogs are very nice.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Horsegal984;7826635]
This type of set up seems to be more common with hunting breeds. There’s a Lab kennel near me that probably has 30 dogs on property, but he may not own them all even if they’re bred/sold out of his kennel. He also does training and field trials the dogs, haven’t checked out his health testing info as I’m really not looking for a
lab but from what I’ve seen of his general set-up and the dogs in his care he seems reputable and the dogs are very nice.[/QUOTE]

I’d be curious to see a good example of this. I belong to a hunting dog club, and my breed has more dual champions than any other sporting breed. It is not easy, or cheap, to put a field championship on your dog. Some non-competitive titles aren’t as difficult (e.g. a Hunting Test - Junior Hunter), but it doesn’t actually say very much about a dog just to have a JH. A Senior or Master Hunter is serious training and multiple legs that must be earned at tests. It’s also not easy or cheap to put a conformation title on a dog.

Multiply this by 3 or 4 (or 10) and you won’t have a free weekend all year long, and would have a hard time whelping puppies and finding homes for them because you would be on the road trialing or showing dogs.

I have a few friends that are breeders, that show and trial their dogs (or do hunt tests), and it’s just not very possible to keep many dogs in competition and breed them too…it really would require “staff” unless you stayed home and did the breeding while you paid someone else to trial or show your other dogs.

So, I do think it is possible…but I would argue that most “high volume” kennels are skipping something somewhere…e.g. maybe they can boast “champion bloodlines” but not all of the breeding stock are titled.

OR…they are all co-owned by other people who put the titles on the dogs, and only come to the kennel for breeding purposes…that’s a possibility too.

[Rhyadawn]

I’ve seen it in my breed, as well as others. It is possible to have a high quality high volume kennel, but it takes hellalot of work! Most people with high numbers use foster homes or co-owns to manage their bitches, only bringing them back for evaluations, breeding, and whelping.

[Arizona_DQ]

This was common in most breeds back in the 40’s and 50’s. These people were very wealthy and had a complete kennel staff, to include a kennel master. This was a rich man’s sport. Now, it is not common and the Animal Rights people have brain washed us to believe the High volume equals puppy mill…

Go see for yourself before you make a judgement. It CAN be done, and is done with many sporting and hound breeds. Don’t cross this kennel off your list of possibilities before seeing it.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Arizona DQ;7826963]
This was common in most breeds back in the 40’s and 50’s. These people were very wealthy and had a complete kennel staff, to include a kennel master. This was a rich man’s sport. Now, it is not common and the Animal Rights people have brain washed us to believe the High volume equals puppy mill…

Go see for yourself before you make a judgement. It CAN be done, and is done with many sporting and hound breeds. Don’t cross this kennel off your list of possibilities before seeing it.[/QUOTE]

Yes, well, I’d say that’s because most high volume kennels ARE puppy mills. It is no longer a rich man’s sport (although certainly there are wealthy dog breeders out there).

But I do agree – to go see before you judge. I am not entirely against breeding for a pet market, so long as there are some standards for conformation and temperament, and appropriate health checks are conducted (and goes without saying, appropriate facility and care).

I’d want to see for myself what their definition of “high quality” is – e.g. if it’s 1-2 titled dogs three generations back…that’s not really all that impressive, and the price should reflect it. (Since it is often possible to get a higher quality dog from a low-volume breeder for the same price - or less).

Personally I doubt the prices are lower, though…and probably higher than a small volume breeder. Someone has to pay for the staff.

[Horsegal984]

[QUOTE=S1969;7826900]
I’d be curious to see a good example of this. I belong to a hunting dog club, and my breed has more dual champions than any other sporting breed. It is not easy, or cheap, to put a field championship on your dog. Some non-competitive titles aren’t as difficult (e.g. a Hunting Test - Junior Hunter), but it doesn’t actually say very much about a dog just to have a JH. A Senior or Master Hunter is serious training and multiple legs that must be earned at tests. It’s also not easy or cheap to put a conformation title on a dog.

Multiply this by 3 or 4 (or 10) and you won’t have a free weekend all year long, and would have a hard time whelping puppies and finding homes for them because you would be on the road trialing or showing dogs.

I have a few friends that are breeders, that show and trial their dogs (or do hunt tests), and it’s just not very possible to keep many dogs in competition and breed them too…it really would require “staff” unless you stayed home and did the breeding while you paid someone else to trial or show your other dogs.

So, I do think it is possible…but I would argue that most “high volume” kennels are skipping something somewhere…e.g. maybe they can boast “champion bloodlines” but not all of the breeding stock are titled.

OR…they are all co-owned by other people who put the titles on the dogs, and only come to the kennel for breeding purposes…that’s a possibility too.[/QUOTE]

This is the place I was thinking of. I’ve never actually been to their facility but have seen a few of their personal dogs and a couple training clients, have all been well cared for, nice examples of their breed. It does look like they have less litters than the example the OP used.

Www.cedarhillretrievers.com

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Horsegal984;7827047]
This is the place I was thinking of. I’ve never actually been to their facility but have seen a few of their personal dogs and a couple training clients, have all been well cared for, nice examples of their breed. It does look like they have less litters than the example the OP used.

Www.cedarhillretrievers.com[/QUOTE]

Looks very nice. I’d love to have access to a facility like that every day. Those are some serious titles on the dogs, and health testing too. Impressive. :yes:

[Bluey]

Some trial border collie competitors have kennels with several litters a year.

They train and compete with their dogs and have very good systems to socialize and train puppies.

They sell any from puppies thru started to finished trial dogs you can go win with.
They will talk your ear off, rattling pedigrees and crosses and wins and ways of working of the different lines and dogs and so on, they really become experts at what they do, their dogs really better for what they are bred for and health than most backyard bred ones.

We never did breed any dogs, but I did play at puppy raising with some of those, had to quit, wanted to keep them all and am just too allergic to most dogs to keep many around.

Many of those competitors with larger kennels rotate their dogs in the house, plus all dogs are in training and on the road competing.

Each one gets out of what we do with our animals whatever we are after, be it our horses, dogs, cats or gerbils.

If anyone is considering getting a puppy for a special purpose, why not go buy it from someone that is breeding exactly for that?

[JanM]

They do exist, and they do produce well socialized, and healthy animals. But, just because they have a big kennel with more litters than other breeders doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a bad kennel.

Some red flags are when the hygiene is bad, animals aren’t tested for diseases, vet care is lacking, and there is no concern for the quality of the home the animals go to. There are still the high volume, breed anything, mass production of puppies in bad conditions, because I saw one years ago. Someone who’s only in it for money is rather obvious, and someone who is trying to breed a quality animal, and place in a good home is also easy to detect.

[wendy]

The really big problem with large kennels that breed working/hunting breeds is that the dogs are never fully socialized as house pets, nor are they tested for their suitability as pets. Which doesn’t matter to most of their clients who aren’t looking for pets. If you’re looking for a dedicated working/hunting dog they may be the way to go. Personally, since i expect my dogs to live in the house, I would never buy a dog that wasn’t raised in a house. Puppies who grow up in kennels rarely fully recover from the experience.

Most high-volume kennels should be avoided like the plague, though. There was a large volume kennel near me that cranked out scores of ill-tempered unhealthy german shepherds every year and sold them to clueless pet owners for the most part who thought it was a big working-dog kennel. Place was gorgeous to look at, too.

[ElisLove]

Personally I wouldn’t buy from a high volume breeder. The breeder I’m planning to buy from next has her dogs titled in conformation, agility, and obedience (possibly field trials too), has all genetic health testing done, screens all her potential puppy homes well, will TAKE BACK any puppy if for any reason you cannot keep the puppy, and breeds maybe one litter a year. She breeds only when she is wanting a new show dog from one of her dogs. This means that she is looking for a perfect match between 2 specific dogs (possibly a breeding she has done before and gotten great dogs out of), the puppies will be highly socialized, she will know their personalities so will know how to place them best into their new homes.
There are so many dogs in the world that even good quality breeders shouldn’t be breeding 6 litters a year.

[Bicoastal]

Defining high quality

I am intentionally being vague because I don’t want to identify the kennel. The ~30 dogs are adults that live on location. I excluded “outside dogs”: dogs in the line that may be used for breeding but do not live on premises.

Looking at one breeding, both parents have hip, eye, and hearing tests. One parent has an entry-level performance title and the other is slightly higher titled. No confo titles. These is a performance kennel. None of the dogs go into the breed ring. Some are purpose-bred mixes.

Visitors are welcomed. The breeder is going to fly with the puppy to my friend. I haven’t heard of that before. Puppies are taken back if needed. Pricing info is not posted publicly.

Does this additional info help determine quality?

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I would just want to visit in person and assess for myself. I think it would have to be determined on a case-by-case basis. I have seen kennels that do many litters (not 30 dogs though) and the dogs are well socialized, field titles, health tested, etc., because due to their volume, and outside training and boarding businesses, they have full-time, professional staff.

Most pups whelped in a house still don’t have full run of the house. Who wants pee everywhere? Or puppies chewing on electrical cords and furniture? I guess if they are raised in a whelping room, socialized with adults and kids, exposed to surfaces, and all kinds of new things as appropriate, and temperament tested, I don’t really care if the whelping room is in the house or not… just my opinion.