High Volume, High Quality Kennels

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7827740]

Looking at one breeding, both parents have hip, eye, and hearing tests. One parent has an entry-level performance title and the other is slightly higher titled. No confo titles. These is a performance kennel. None of the dogs go into the breed ring. Some are purpose-bred mixes.

Visitors are welcomed. The breeder is going to fly with the puppy to my friend. I haven’t heard of that before. Puppies are taken back if needed. Pricing info is not posted publicly.

Does this additional info help determine quality?[/QUOTE]

I am guessing flyball if they’re intentionally breeding mixed breeds. Not going in to the breed ring is fairly common. Depending on the breed, there can be a sharp divide between what the working type dogs look like and the conformation champions look like. I would guess that the parent with an entry level title is starting his or her career.

No need to share location, but geography may also play a role in the lack of time in the breed ring. One of the popular show venues near me was recently lost when the hotel expanded it’s waterpark. I am now looking at close to four hours each way to show in the breed ring or I can drive 20 minutes from my weekend job to one of the primary performance venues. Leaving my youngster with a handler would take her out of agility training. I know there are some places where it is even further to show in breed.

That’s a deal-breaker to me. Because unless you are working toward developing a new breed and have specific criteria, you may (or may not) get anything like what you want from a desired breeding.

My dog is being solicited for stud to a bitch that is a finished champion but, in my opinion, not that great. Even with two solid pedigrees – of the same BREED – I am unsure as to whether we’ll get the mix of good traits, or puppies that have all the faults (conformation, hunting desire, and temperament)…

Could a mixed breeding give you the best of both breeds? Sure, maybe. Or you might end up with nothing at all you want. That’s why breeds were developed - to increase the chances of getting the desired characteristics.

Personally, I think it sounds like an upscale puppy mill. LOL. But, not everyone would find a “puppy mill” to be a bad thing.

What I would want to know is why your friend thinks a puppy from this breeder is better than one she can get elsewhere. In many cases, I think breeders like this appeal to buyers because they have a big website and are easy to find. Many smaller breeders might not have a website at all, and their puppies are sold via word of mouth. However, if you ASK, you are likely to find one without just searching on Google.

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7827740]
I am intentionally being vague because I don’t want to identify the kennel. The ~30 dogs are adults that live on location. I excluded “outside dogs”: dogs in the line that may be used for breeding but do not live on premises.

Looking at one breeding, both parents have hip, eye, and hearing tests. One parent has an entry-level performance title and the other is slightly higher titled. No confo titles. These is a performance kennel. None of the dogs go into the breed ring. Some are purpose-bred mixes.

Visitors are welcomed. The breeder is going to fly with the puppy to my friend. I haven’t heard of that before. Puppies are taken back if needed. Pricing info is not posted publicly.

Does this additional info help determine quality?[/QUOTE]

This isn’t an English setter breeder in NE PA, is it? The one I’m thinking of turns out nice working stock, and always has them tested for genetic issues (at least, back when I lived there and worked part time for a local vet), but I don’t know how much socialization the pups receive. Could be lots—I just don’t know.

I will say they seem to have quite a few employees, and don’t seem to be shorthanded for care! And the pups that came through had nice temperaments.

It sounds like a collie breeding operation I visited in NJ. No socialization going on. Stick with a low volume, high quality breeder.

Good breeding is good breeding. If the dogs are appropriately health tested and socialized, then I don’t have an issue with it. If one person with a full time job and who also travels to shows has several litters on the ground at all times because obviously extensive socialization would be impossible. Some kennels are larger and have more staff. My own breed has some very good breeders that breed very rarely, and some larger kennels that have litters on a much more frequent basis. Both are good. There are also bad breeders that are large and small. I always looks at the same basic criteria (socialization, health testing, show record in something, etc.).

[QUOTE=Casey09;7828686]
Good breeding is good breeding. If the dogs are appropriately health tested and socialized, then I don’t have an issue with it. [/QUOTE]

Yes, in general I agree, although the “socialized” thing always puzzles me. While I’d certainly prefer a puppy had interacted with at least some people other than the breeder before they go to their new homes at 8 weeks, I’d be more concerned about all the rest – the socialization/training and living quality of the breeding adults, in particular…and of course the selection process and standards.

I think nearly all puppies would be malleable enough at 8 weeks to adapt to living in a home no matter what their situation had been up until that point…I know breeders that will not let anyone near their babies until they are 4 weeks or so (especially those that show or compete – no other dogs near the mom and pups, and very limited people as well). So, that really only leaves a few short, crazy weeks to “socialize” the puppies. Some great breeders use kennels for their puppies in their last few weeks with their mom – a controlled environment but allows lots of exercise and play (and learning). And yet they all manage to adapt to living in a home.

But, if the dam has a correct temperament, that should be easy enough. I would worry more about the factors that determine whether a dog/bitch should be bred, and what conditions those breeding animals live in while they are producing puppies for the kennel.

I think nearly all puppies would be malleable enough at 8 weeks to adapt to living in a home no matter what their situation had been up until that point…

you should read The Breeders Guide to Raising Superstar Dogs.

It really does matter what the breeder does with the pups between age 3 weeks and 8 weeks. The estimate is that about 35% of a pup’s temperament is inherited and the rest is shaped during the very early weeks of a puppy’s life.

Back to the original op:

Looking at one breeding, both parents have hip, eye, and hearing tests. One parent has an entry-level performance title and the other is slightly higher titled. No confo titles. These is a performance kennel. None of the dogs go into the breed ring. Some are purpose-bred mixes.

the lack of conformation titles is no big deal- why should a performance breeder bother with that? But if that’s the only proof that the dogs are high-quality performers that’s not very much. If the dogs are actually working or hunting in some way they may not many titles but they should have plenty of proof to show off that their dogs can do the job they are being bred for.

[QUOTE=wendy;7828770]
you should read The Breeders Guide to Raising Superstar Dogs.

It really does matter what the breeder does with the pups between age 3 weeks and 8 weeks. The estimate is that about 35% of a pup’s temperament is inherited and the rest is shaped during the very early weeks of a puppy’s life.

Back to the original op:
the lack of conformation titles is no big deal- why should a performance breeder bother with that? But if that’s the only proof that the dogs are high-quality performers that’s not very much. If the dogs are actually working or hunting in some way they may not many titles but they should have plenty of proof to show off that their dogs can do the job they are being bred for.[/QUOTE]

No, I believe you - I personally think it matters a lot; and most of the breeders I know put a lot of effort into their puppies at that age. BUT, I don’t think good “socialization” can override a bad or incorrect temperament, which is why I would worry about socialization of the puppies only after I was convinced that the selection process for breeding was good. And in any “high volume” kennel, I would not expect a lot of “socialization” except by the dam.

And, while it doesn’t have to include conformation titles, it should include something to ensure that the offspring represent what is generally correct for the breed – conformation AND temperament. Having an aggressive hunting dogs is bad, or a timid guard dog…or a mean companion dog. Or…an expected 40lb dog that is 80lbs. Prospective puppy buyers of purebred dogs will make assumptions on their choice of puppy based on known breed characteristics, so a good breeder should do their best to make sure the puppies represent the breed.

[QUOTE=S1969;7828811]
And in any “high volume” kennel, I would not expect a lot of “socialization” except by the dam.[/QUOTE]

This is where I think that it depends. In a high volume kennel with several people involved, there may be quite a bit of socialization. A low volume kennel out in the middle of nowhere with a very busy breeder may do less socialization than a busy high volume breeder that has more people and different animals in and out. I really think it all depends.

[QUOTE=Casey09;7829170]
This is where I think that it depends. In a high volume kennel with several people involved, there may be quite a bit of socialization. A low volume kennel out in the middle of nowhere with a very busy breeder may do less socialization than a busy high volume breeder that has more people and different animals in and out. I really think it all depends.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it really depends on everything. Being a low-volume breeder doesn’t make someone good by definition either.

However, I have a hard time understanding the justification of a “high volume” kennel. Breeding dogs isn’t especially lucrative, and if the only way to make it so is to breed more of them, I don’t think I would ever be able to accept that as a “good” breeding program.

As was said earlier in the thread, there is more of a demand than a supply for very well-bred puppies; and puppies are placed carefully to minimize the chances they will end up in a shelter. I don’t know that the same is true of the “not so well-bred” puppies…from small and large volume kennels. So again, the definition of high-quality really makes the difference in this situation.

One of my dobies came from a larger kennel a Dr owned.
He had employees and a handler for the shows, but did much of the showing himself also.

He had very fancy kennels and the puppies were extensively socialized and already started with puppy training.

The puppy I got was wonderful, impeccable disposition and already crate broke.
As was done all these decades ago, he would not let a puppy go until he had his vet cut the ears and he had tended to them until healed and started standing them up.
I was looking for a performance dog, not conformation, so didn’t want the ears cut, but could absolutely not find a breeder at that time that didn’t cut ears.

Other than that and that was breed specific, there was nothing missing in that kennel as far as how dogs were handled or puppies raised.

The same with our cattle dog border collie handler here I helped with his puppy raising.

Now, labs around here sell like hotcakes and there are many one dog backyard breeder with just one female dog cranking out poorly bred, no health concerns puppies, sold in parking lots at barely 6 weeks old, no vaccines yet.
Our vets get those to work with when their health problems show up, parvo, bad hearts and hips.
Our shelter ends up with some of those when they become bigger and bigger and a handful as they were sold to unsuitable homes, that “didn’t realize how big they would get”.

I think that how you manage your dogs as a breeder is what matters, not the number you may have.

Mixed breeds?

[QUOTE=S1969;7828451]
That’s a deal-breaker to me.[/QUOTE]

Me, too, unless it’s a crossbred foxhound from a recognized pack. :lol:

Otherwise, nope.

Setting ethics compass about high volume kennels

I am most interested in setting my ethics compass about high volume kennels, not purpose-bred mixes, and I can even put down the socialization part of it. Is it acceptable to produce, say, fifty puppies a year? Is it ok to have, say, twenty resident dogs?

[QUOTE=S1969;7828451]
What I would want to know is why your friend thinks a puppy from this breeder is better than one she can get elsewhere. In many cases, I think breeders like this appeal to buyers because they have a big website and are easy to find. Many smaller breeders might not have a website at all, and their puppies are sold via word of mouth. However, if you ASK, you are likely to find one without just searching on Google.[/QUOTE]

My friend saw a dog she liked at a trial, asked where it came from, then asked our instructor if that kennel was ok. She says that was the extent of it. I’m really surprised as she seems like a researcher and planner, though her current dog was an impulse adoption as a wee baby many years ago.

With my dog, I was told all of the same things the above kennel’s website says. Since then, I’ve been told my breeder is famous. She has produced the most champions in her breed. I view her puppies as fearful and spooky especially when removed from the pack. I just realized, my sister got her dog from a reputable breeder that was recommended by the AKC club, breeding for a purpose and active in that purpose, health testing, good buyer support and contract, and knowledgeable. When we visited, the 6mo puppies had never been inside, per the breeder, so were scared. They were groveling around the floor on their bellies. These are two examples of “good breeders;” one high volume, one not and puppies lacked exposure.

I’m really not trashing the breeders. I’m trying to set my ethics compass with your help. Maybe socialization is not a realistic goal of the breeder and is the responsibility of the owner. That becomes problematic when the puppies stay at the breeder’s for a while, which is the case in my two personal examples.

Socialization is important. I mean why not do it–give the puppy every chance to succeed. That said, I have greatly pulled back on how much I think it contributes to the end product over the years. I have helped teach lots of dog classes and everyone always wants to blame the previous owner (“I mean he must have been abused” or “they didn’t socialize him”).

I think the inherent temperament of the dog is always the controlling factor. I have seen dogs who were kenneled for most of their first year become great household companions, and well bred, super socialized dogs struggle with a fear of men (thunder or whatever) for their lives. You CAN improve the dog, I know people who have done amazing things with fearful dogs, but you are always up against that inborn temperament.

So yes, buy from a kennel that socializes. It is a lot easier for the puppies to adapt if they learn with their family pack that this or that is ok. They are like little sponges, soaking it all in. But above all, go meet the parents. It’s just a lot easier to start with a great temperament.

Sorry, I got a little carried away I think.

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7829505]
I am most interested in setting my ethics compass about high volume kennels, not purpose-bred mixes, and I can even put down the socialization part of it. Is it acceptable to produce, say, fifty puppies a year? Is it ok to have, say, twenty resident dogs? [/QUOTE]

Well, as many here are saying, it all depends. SOME high-volume kennels can do things so well, much better than the many craptastic one-bitch kennels not doing a good job at all. It all depends on the individual breeder and their MO and their standards.

Personally, I stay away from “Championship lines” (field or show) vs. the actual parents themselves having the achievements. If the parents are not titled and tested, but only their progenitors are, pffftt, doesn’t mean much, generally speaking.

You & your friend will know (should know) if the titles these have are acceptable from these particular parents. If they’re working/hunting dogs, you simply must see them work, period. Then make your decision.

I was thinking about it as I read, and initially I was thinking it may work well enough for breeds which are generally “easy” - in terms of, say, a Beagle v. a Malinois. I don’t think a high-volume kennel without a very large staff could adequately raise safe members of most working and guard breeds.

However, I think I ultimately disapprove. First, there’s the unquestionable reality that 99% of high-volume kennels are mills and lousy production lines of abuse. Making an exception for a handful of adequate, good and excellent kennels is just muddying the issue. And despite the fact that it sometimes feels like the puppy mill message has been thoroughly put out there, that battle is far from over. On a more individual note, I think every dog wants an owner. Her own owner. Sure, maybe a couple of super-intense Border Collies care only about sheep and that kind of high-drive working dogs could be ok with minimal human bonding. But we created this species to be partners with us. Most of them need to be a human’s dog, not just one of dozens or hundreds.

Yeah, that does bring up the question of what is the motivation of the large kennel owner, and what about the welfare of the breeding stock? Most people don’t make money off dogs, so why do the large kennels exist? Most people want to keep dogs because they enjoy the relationship with individual dogs, which means you can’t own huge numbers of dogs.

In puppy mills, people complain about possible problems with the health and quality of the puppies, but in reality the REAL problem with puppy mills is the way the adults live. And the biggest problem is that they live in kennels with no individual attention or relationships with people.

Other than some pack-type breeds of hounds, most dogs do not like it much being made to live in kennels even if all of their physical needs are met.

It’s also impossible to test the temperament of a dog living in an kennel. It’s such a limited sort of life that temperament tests that reveal the true qualities of a dog just don’t arise. If some breeder claimed her breeding stock had stellar temperaments but then admitted the dogs live in kennels I would not believe her about her temperament claims. There are many dogs that show or perform well in various venues that have truly horrible temperaments and they would fail miserably if taken out of their confined, predictable kennel lives. A single day spent in a house with a visiting child would reveal the huge gaping holes in their temperaments.

I’m aware of some large kennels that “rotate” dogs through the house and then back out to the kennel and I have to say that sounds horrifically cruel to the poor dogs. They never know why they are suddenly banished out to the kennels. Sounds even worse than permanently living out there.

Personally I would never buy from a large-scale kennel. It’s just too difficult to do it right. It’s much easier to breed, socialize and keep dogs if you keep only a small number of them- six or fewer. Of course you can also mess it up with just one dog, but it’s harder to do and easier to spot.

[QUOTE=wendy;7830951]
Yeah, that does bring up the question of what is the motivation of the large kennel owner, and what about the welfare of the breeding stock? Most people don’t make money off dogs, so why do the large kennels exist? Most people want to keep dogs because they enjoy the relationship with individual dogs, which means you can’t own huge numbers of dogs.

In puppy mills, people complain about possible problems with the health and quality of the puppies, but in reality the REAL problem with puppy mills is the way the adults live. And the biggest problem is that they live in kennels with no individual attention or relationships with people.

Other than some pack-type breeds of hounds, most dogs do not like it much being made to live in kennels even if all of their physical needs are met.

It’s also impossible to test the temperament of a dog living in an kennel. It’s such a limited sort of life that temperament tests that reveal the true qualities of a dog just don’t arise. If some breeder claimed her breeding stock had stellar temperaments but then admitted the dogs live in kennels I would not believe her about her temperament claims. There are many dogs that show or perform well in various venues that have truly horrible temperaments and they would fail miserably if taken out of their confined, predictable kennel lives. A single day spent in a house with a visiting child would reveal the huge gaping holes in their temperaments.

I’m aware of some large kennels that “rotate” dogs through the house and then back out to the kennel and I have to say that sounds horrifically cruel to the poor dogs. They never know why they are suddenly banished out to the kennels. Sounds even worse than permanently living out there.

Personally I would never buy from a large-scale kennel. It’s just too difficult to do it right. It’s much easier to breed, socialize and keep dogs if you keep only a small number of them- six or fewer. Of course you can also mess it up with just one dog, but it’s harder to do and easier to spot.[/QUOTE]

Just think about this this way, many dogs in their home spend most of the day sleeping, no stimulation at all, until the people come home in the evening, are around for a few hours and then everyone is asleep for so many hours again.

The kennel I got my dobie from decades ago, the dogs were in kennels, some by themselves but with other dogs around and people around all the time, that took them out for grooming, exercise and training, some were more than one in a kennel, kennels had exercise runs.
Those dogs went on the road to shows regularly and they took turns in the house with the family.
When they were out in the kennels they were also just as home there, not pinning to go back to the house or on the road, because they were managed so they were happy either place.

If you compare them to the single dog in a home, as most pet dogs live today, I would say that, each way to manage dogs has good and less desirable points.
Is a yard ornament or couch potato dog, as most dogs are today, happier and better off than a dog with so much going on around it all day as those in well managed kennels are?

Yes, you can tell about a dog’s personality in a kennel.
A dog like our aussie, that spent from a little puppy a whole year isolated in a kennel without any one, dog or human around, until the owner finally died and we got her totally unsocialized, skinny, scared of the world self, she had such a good temperament she completely came out of that bad start to be the dog she was bred to be, a wonderful, smart and sweet companion.

Why do some dog owners like to have many dogs and make that a business?
I don’t know, just like some like to be horse professionals, not just have one horse they dote over.

Without breeders, we would not have the animals the rest of us get to enjoy, one at the time.

Our performance dog club here had many members but only a handful were breeders.
One lady raised chis and had 8 in the house, not kennels and no one was a barker.
All were trained and shown in conformation and obedience and taken to venues to show their tricks, like schools and nursing homes.
In later years, when agility started, some of those were the first chi MACH around.

If the dogs are taken care of properly, the size of the kennel, many with small dogs keep theirs in the house anyway, the number of dogs, within reason of course, should not be a considered an automatic demerit.

I think someone that wants a dog needs to think hard first what they want to do with the dog in their lives, then find the right kind of match and that may be found, for some, in rescue, for others, from a breeder and some of those may have dogs in kennels.

I think it really depends on so many things, we can argue these points, academically, forever.

Many dogs are perfectly happy in a kennel for a variety of reasons – their breed, their level of activity/exercise, their overall care. Lots of great hunting dogs live in kennels and are perfectly happy and suitable for their job. But, that doesn’t mean they simply live in a kennel. They are trained and socialized and worked – daily, or if not daily, often. That’s very different than going to a “breeding kennel” and finding ALL the breeding animals in kennels - but not being worked. If you took a high energy hunting breed and kept it perpetually in a kennel without adequate exercise and mental stimulation, you really may not be able to assess its true temperament, trainability, working potential, etc.

But, unless you go to the kennel and ask a lot of questions, you really can’t form an opinion or make a judgment.

I would be inclined to doubt the “quality” and worthiness of a high volume kennel unless proven otherwise. To truly produce a “high quality” puppy there are many standards that must be met (in my opinion). Unless someone is unusually wealthy, I would doubt whether they can appropriately produce high quality puppies in a high volume setting. I believe it could be done, but I would need proof. I would NEVER buy a puppy from a high volume kennel without visiting it in person and asking a lot of questions.

I certainly would never pay MORE for a “high quality” puppy from a high volume kennel than I would from a smaller breeder of “high quality” puppies (and, I would want to visit them, as I’m sure they would want me to).

The big difference I see – is the “wait” factor. In a small volume kennel, you may have to wait for your puppy. In a high volume kennel, perhaps a breeder always has a puppy available. To me, that just encourages sales to impulse buyers…again, not something I would ever encourage. That is one reason our shelters are full of unwanted pets. :frowning:

[QUOTE=S1969;7831043]
I think it really depends on so many things, we can argue these points, academically, forever.

Many dogs are perfectly happy in a kennel for a variety of reasons – their breed, their level of activity/exercise, their overall care. Lots of great hunting dogs live in kennels and are perfectly happy and suitable for their job. But, that doesn’t mean they simply live in a kennel. They are trained and socialized and worked – daily, or if not daily, often. That’s very different than going to a “breeding kennel” and finding ALL the breeding animals in kennels - but not being worked. If you took a high energy hunting breed and kept it perpetually in a kennel without adequate exercise and mental stimulation, you really may not be able to assess its true temperament, trainability, working potential, etc.

But, unless you go to the kennel and ask a lot of questions, you really can’t form an opinion or make a judgment.

I would be inclined to doubt the “quality” and worthiness of a high volume kennel unless proven otherwise. To truly produce a “high quality” puppy there are many standards that must be met (in my opinion). Unless someone is unusually wealthy, I would doubt whether they can appropriately produce high quality puppies in a high volume setting. I believe it could be done, but I would need proof. I would NEVER buy a puppy from a high volume kennel without visiting it in person and asking a lot of questions.

I certainly would never pay MORE for a “high quality” puppy from a high volume kennel than I would from a smaller breeder of “high quality” puppies (and, I would want to visit them, as I’m sure they would want me to).

The big difference I see – is the “wait” factor. In a small volume kennel, you may have to wait for your puppy. In a high volume kennel, perhaps a breeder always has a puppy available. To me, that just encourages sales to impulse buyers…again, not something I would ever encourage. That is one reason our shelters are full of unwanted pets. :([/QUOTE]

Here, our shelters are full of oooops! dogs, not purposely bred ones.
People just won’t spay and neuter enough or early, so they keep having litters.
We have many programs to teach and they have helped, just not enough, many people like to have litters of puppies.

I agree, not that many good larger kennels left, not that easy to pull off managing one, but then, how many single dogs in someone’s home or apartment are that well cared for, not practically considered part of the furniture and mostly ignored?

A dog’s happiness depends on how a dog is managed, not where it is managed.