High Volume, High Quality Kennels

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7831052]
Here, our shelters are full of oooops! dogs, not purposely bred ones.[/QUOTE]

Yes, those too, but at least around here - they don’t end up in shelters as litters of 8 week old puppies. Some do, and some dogs in shelters are just “lost”, but many are surrendered because they are “too much work” or “we had to move” or all the other reasons why people thought it was a good idea to get a dog but now it’s not.

Not to mention all the breed rescues…a quick count shows me that one of my breed’s rescue organizations has at least 40 dogs available; there are other rescue groups that I didn’t check. Certainly, many of these were purposely bred.

Obviously there are many reasons why shelters are overfull, but I see no reason to add to the potential for more. Maybe some high volume breeders are just as selective as smaller breeders when it comes to placing puppies…but, again, I’d have to see proof before I’d assume so.

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7831052]
Here, our shelters are full of oooops! dogs, not purposely bred ones.
People just won’t spay and neuter enough or early, so they keep having litters.
We have many programs to teach and they have helped, just not enough, many people like to have litters of puppies.

I agree, not that many good larger kennels left, not that easy to pull off managing one, but then, how many single dogs in someone’s home or apartment are that well cared for, not practically considered part of the furniture and mostly ignored?
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=7831052
A dog’s happiness depends on how a dog is managed, not where it is managed.[/QUOTE]

I volunteer with several breed rescues. There are plenty of purposely bred dogs in shelters…more than enough…so many that the breed rescues can’t possibly pull them all.

Except for Old English Sheepdogs, I’ve only ever helped with one OES pull. They take care of their own.

[Bluey]

Originally Posted by Bluey
Here, our shelters are full of oooops! dogs, not purposely bred ones.
People just won’t spay and neuter enough or early, so they keep having litters.
We have many programs to teach and they have helped, just not enough, many people like to have litters of puppies.

I agree, not that many good larger kennels left, not that easy to pull off managing one, but then, how many single dogs in someone’s home or apartment are that well cared for, not practically considered part of the furniture and mostly ignored?
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/ne...eply&p=7831052
A dog’s happiness depends on how a dog is managed, not where it is managed.

@LauraKY;7831089

I volunteer with several breed rescues. There are plenty of purposely bred dogs in shelters…more than enough…so many that the breed rescues can’t possibly pull them all.

Except for Old English Sheepdogs, I’ve only ever helped with one OES pull. They take care of their own.

What is wrong with the quoted text, that such a reply link was inserted in there, that was not in the original?

Doesn’t make sense?

[Bicoastal]

Not a physical kennel

Sorry I was using “kennel” to mean professional breeder or the line of dogs being produced. The website states the owner does not keep the dogs in a kennel situation and that the dogs are raised and live inside the house.

[QUOTE=Bluey;7831018]
If the dogs are taken care of properly, the size of the kennel, many with small dogs keep theirs in the house anyway, the number of dogs, within reason of course, should not be a considered an automatic demerit.[/QUOTE]

I think that is what I’m trying to determine. What is proper care? And what is a reasonable number of dogs?

These same questions exist on a smaller scale when I learn a small time trainer with a couple handfuls of dogs is breeding another litter to get a carbon copy of a favorite adult. I’ve seen that not go as planned four different times.

[S1969]

@Bicoastal;7831139

Sorry I was using “kennel” to mean professional breeder or the line of dogs being produced. The website states the owner does not keep the dogs in a kennel situation and that the dogs are raised and live inside the house.

I think that is what I’m trying to determine. What is proper care? And what is a reasonable number of dogs?

The owner keeps 30 dogs in their house?? :eek:

I don’t think there is a way to define “proper care” and “reasonable number” without seeing for yourself. I think my 3 adult dogs is pushing the “reasonable number” in a regular house. Sort of kidding, but not totally.

[Anne_FS]

Ugh, that’s horrible. That means these dogs spend their entire lives in crates.

That’s pretty sick in my book. I know “crate training” is all the rage, but crate training has moved from being a temporary measure useful in training a puppy or new dog to dogs spending, time-wise, the vast majority of their life locked in a dog crate.

There’s even a euphemism about the word “crate.” If you refer to it as a “cage,” most dog people object to that.

[wendy]

I think 6 dogs is pretty much the maximum even the most competent, dedicated person can keep in their house, and for most people the number is far less than six. Yes, I’ve met people who try to keep more than six and I’ve never seen it work out well. Even someone who spends their entire day working with the dogs will struggle to meet the needs of six dogs. You might be able to hook them to an ATV and exercise them all at once, but you can’t train/work them all at once. In most dog sports/ work the dog works solo. Most people with too many dogs end up defaulting to caging the dogs- stuff them in kennels, crates or yards for long periods of times and neglect them.
Add in trying to work the various competition circuits in order to prove some of the dogs are worth breeding- someone will have to hit the road practically every single weekend to campaign a dog to see if it’s worth breeding. What do the other dogs do then?

Is a yard ornament or couch potato dog, as most dogs are today, happier and better off than a dog with so much going on around it all day as those in well managed kennels are?
Well, ask any of the neglectful pet owners who expect their dogs to do nothing on a daily basis about how their dogs act after being boarded out. Most dogs at boarding kennels are immersed in dogs, people and skilled staff, and have a lot more to do on a daily basis than the couch-potato dog or isolated yard-dog does. And yet most of these dogs are extremely eager to get out of the kennel and come back home.

why do you suppose so many of these kennel yards feel they have to “rotate” the dogs through the house? Because they know the dogs hate living in kennels. Dogs first and foremost want to be with their special people.

[Fairfax]

Buna Henry…one of the GREAT Borzoi breeders in the world maintained over 70. She had over 160 acres fenced and cross fenced. Her dogs grew up in packs of 3-4and they were shown in conformation, CD and Lure Coursing.

Her dogs were wonderful in disposition, intelligence and condition. They were kept in large indoor runs when they were getting show condition coats however so much of her coats was genetic. Her prices started at $3000 in the 1960’s and she always had a waiting list. Very particular as to who could acquire one of her breeding.

She had three workers…and her husband.

Buna ALWAYS took back (and paid if the dog was on the other side of the country or world) any dog acquired from her.

Coastwind, one of the Top Afghan Hound Kennels would have 20-30 from puppies to adults. They had problems with only one cross…disposition no matter how much they were handled. That line was removed from their program

Baroness Mahafey maintained around 100 Rhodesian Ridgebacks. She had many of the top Rhodesians anywhere. She was able to eliminate a blindness gene that was in many of the Ridgebacks. Staff of three.

Eileen Buyer-Locke…one of the greats of all time in the Bull Dog ring. She consistently produced Champions under CKC, AKC and FEI rules. At most, she would have three litters in a year and those litters tended to be 2-3. She never had more than 10-12

We had two breeding programs within our Afghan Hounds. We linebred and inbred extensively and we culled continually. By culling I mean we evaluated the puppy as to breeding quality, then show quality I actively bred Af’s for thirty years.

We did not sell puppies at 8 weeks…ever…they were usually four months old before we would let them go to new homes. We maintained 35 Afghans and kept 10 or so in show coat. They rotated from the kennel to our home.

The outdoor runs bordered onto the pastures for mares and foals and the horses had to go by them to get to the drinking troughs.

I would never decide against acquiring a dog from a large breeder after getting to know them. Usually large breeders are tougher on their evaluations

Some breeders euthanize their non show, working trial dogs that do not live up to their expectations. Others selectively find pet homes however they NEVER give away dogs for free.

Many dog breeders show in the Bred by Exhibitor class and concentrate on Breed wins rather than Group wins…who cares if a poodle can beat a Puli.

I was fortunate as I worked for an airline for many years and that afforded me the opportunity to show extensively in many countries. Many handlers or breeders had spouses or family members working for the airlines.

Many top breeders…such as Marguerite and Chris Terrel of Kabik Kennels…BIS Westminster … Pepsi…have backers…

It is never the number of staff or people working with dogs…it is the quality of their work…

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Fairfax;7832648]
It is never the number of staff or people working with dogs…it is the quality of their work…[/QUOTE]

In theory this may be true. But, you can’t maintain 30+ dogs and 6+ litters per year without money – and time. Either your own time, or you have enough money to pay for help – kennel help, show handlers, field trainers, or someone to whelp the puppies…or a combination of all of the above. You can’t convince me otherwise…I have one dog that I show and am training for field titles and I simply don’t have enough time to do it as well as I’d like. If I had 6…no way. 30? Impossible without a lot of help.

A wealthy and established breeder may be able to sell their puppies for enough to subsidize the expense of showing and trialing the rest – but they would certainly be the exceptions…not the typical breeder.

Other breeders might TRY - but without money and time, they will not have the same “high quality” you are describing. Sort of like my crazy neighbor that bred TBs as her “get rich quick” scheme. Well…she is bankrupt now, and none of her “racehorses” ever did anything. It’s the rare exception for a TB breeder to “break into” racing and just happen to produce a huge winner without having the money to get them there.

ETA: I know it can be done. But, I would never assume that a “high quality, high volume” kennel is anything like the ones you describe unless I saw it for myself. And the living conditions of the dogs and puppies, the actual titles achieved, the health certificates…no way would I contract to buy the dog over the phone/online, whatever, and then let the breeder bring me the puppy.

[Bluey]

Good breeders are good if they have one female only or a kennel full.

Depending on the breed, the discipline, the location, we may find someone raising wonderful puppies if owning one or many dogs, if in the house or kennels.
It depends on the breed and dogs and good management.

When I was in a hunting barn, those dogs in the kennels were very happy and none of those really had one owner and slept on the couch, but were kennel dogs.
Not that they could not have been just as happy as couch potatoes, but for the dogs they were, I doubt they would have been any happier as a single dog in a house than as one more of a hunting pack.

Now, the working border collies in the kennels, rotated to the house, some of those truly seemed to like it in the kennel, where they could better keep track of what was going on.
Our friend would not sell a dog to someone that was not going to keep working it or let it ride in the back of a pickup.
That was decades ago, before the public realized that was not a good idea.

Dogs, like people, are adaptable and of different personalities.

If looking for a puppy, any one breeder in consideration should be checked out, just as good breeders today check puppy buyers for suitability.

[gypsymare]

Some breeds are so divided between show and working lines that they are nearly separate breeds. For example, a Border Collie can be registered in the ABCA, ISDS or AKC. The ABCA will not register a dog with a conformation championship from the AKC (and will actively de-register them) and ISDS and ABCA do not accept AKC only registered dogs. But the ISDS will register ABCA dogs and the AKC will register only ISDS dogs so you can get tri-register dogs until they show conformation and then they get de-registered by the ABCA. There are now two almost entirely separate gene pools. There are some loop holes like the one above and dual registered dogs but you can pretty much tell by looking at then which dogs are AKC registered. So depending on the breed, the AKC is sometimes disdained.

I do know of high quality high volume gun dog kennels and some in the business of protection dogs for military or police use. It’s a different kind of life for a dog but not necessarily a bad start. There is high demand and yes, sometimes purpose bred crosses but we aren’t talking muttadoodles here.

[Bicoastal]

[QUOTE=Fairfax;7832648]
I would never decide against acquiring a dog from a large breeder after getting to know them. Usually large breeders are tougher on their evaluations [/QUOTE]

I love these examples and stories. Thanks for sharing, Fairfax.

I think my breeder would get along swell with the people you described. I think she is “famous” and so successful partly because of the large numbers. She has seen hundreds of dogs and another litter is around the corner so she doesn’t waste time and entry fees on mediocrity. She looks at her dogs more as a product and wet clay she is shaping as a whole breed, not as individuals. Getting to know and love one of her individuals, the contrast in our mentalities and our dog’s lifestyles makes me a little sad.

Statistically, the high volume breeder who brings one third of the entries is more likely to get that GCh than the once every three years hobby breeder.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7833170]
I love these examples and stories. Thanks for sharing, Fairfax.

I think my breeder would get along swell with the people you described. I think she is “famous” and so successful partly because of the large numbers. She has seen hundreds of dogs and another litter is around the corner so she doesn’t waste time and entry fees on mediocrity. She looks at her dogs more as a product and wet clay she is shaping as a whole breed, not as individuals. Getting to know and love one of her individuals, the contrast in our mentalities and our dog’s lifestyles makes me a little sad.

Statistically, the high volume breeder who brings one third of the entries is more likely to get that GCh than the once every three years hobby breeder.[/QUOTE]

Dog shows (and performance events) are not judged on the number of entries from Kennel XX, they are judged one at a time against a standard of perfection.

Using a professional handler may improve the way a dog is presented, or worked, just like putting a great jockey or pro rider on an already quality horse; but bringing 5 dogs doesn’t increase your chance of winning anything.

[D_BaldStockings]

This lady has bred and trained German Shepherds at least since the 1970’s.

She often lived with 6 or more large dogs in the house, often males, all trained to get along and given valuable chores and interactive time.

She is certainly not the only person who can deal with multiple dogs and develop them all into well rounded useful dogs…
http://www.amazon.com/Expert-Obedience-Training-Winifred-Strickland/dp/0764525166

High volume: I feel this number varies with individual kennels: what one person or family can manage may be far more than another’s ability.

Shoehorning everyone into the least able person’s “dog limit” is like making everyone ride only at a walk because there is a person somewhere who is not able to do anything else.

[Bicoastal]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7833384]
Dog shows (and performance events) are not judged on the number of entries from Kennel XX, they are judged one at a time against a standard of perfection.
…but bringing 5 dogs doesn’t increase your chance of winning anything.[/QUOTE]

I just thought, over time, the more dogs you show the more chances you have. Like the more lottery tickets you buy, the greater your odds. Do I have that wrong?

It is reassuring to hear some people think it is possible. My friend works hard and is going through a rough personal time. I wish her a healthy, stable dog that can bring her the success she desires. She is very competitive.

This high volume, high quality breeder seems normal to some people/circles and shocking to others.

[Fairfax]

What you might be referring to is “staking the classes” if one is looking for a major to complete a championship. Due to costs of entry, transportation etc not many breeders can afford to do that…

Dog show numbers are down compared to the 70’s. We used to require 35 bitches in order to win a 5 point major. I am not sure what the number is now however I am guessing it would be around 10

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7833547]
I just thought, over time, the more dogs you show the more chances you have. Like the more lottery tickets you buy, the greater your odds. Do I have that wrong?

It is reassuring to hear some people think it is possible. My friend works hard and is going through a rough personal time. I wish her a healthy, stable dog that can bring her the success she desires. She is very competitive.

This high volume, high quality breeder seems normal to some people/circles and shocking to others.[/QUOTE]

I remember back in the 1970’s a certain Borzoi who was extremely high quality won just about everywhere he was shown…to the point where other exhibitors could be heard saying things like: he ought to stay home and give the rest of us a chance.

No, If your dog is outstanding and well presented he will rise above, no matter the number of less good dogs shown against him/her.

-As an aside, he had 2 littermates that were also shown and very high quality; and sired dogs that were quality and his sister and brother were also top producers/ sires as time went on.

There have been great winners or performers or breeding animals all through history - the odds of raising /owning one go up with knowledge, seeing a large number of related animals and learning why they show the traits they do, perseverance and some luck; but often a lot less luck than many seem to think.

And it is very possible to breed one litter or several (depending on the number of breeding females of quality) that are far above the average of the breed production.

Numbers or lack of them isn’t the issue.
Quality ALWAYS is.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7833547]
I just thought, over time, the more dogs you show the more chances you have. Like the more lottery tickets you buy, the greater your odds. Do I have that wrong?

It is reassuring to hear some people think it is possible. My friend works hard and is going through a rough personal time. I wish her a healthy, stable dog that can bring her the success she desires. She is very competitive.

This high volume, high quality breeder seems normal to some people/circles and shocking to others.[/QUOTE]

No, a dog show is definitely not like a lottery, except the part that you can’t win if you don’t enter.

It is possible, though, for a large scale breeder to enter multiple dogs so that no matter what happens, one will be the winner. But, it’s no less expensive for several of your dogs to lose, repeatedly, so that another could win…and, to be honest…people all know who is competing. So, someone can go ahead and post their BOB win on Facebook, but in today’s electronic age it only takes two seconds to find out there was no competition…or that the breeder made up the entire entry to achieve the points (“point fodder” is a technical term).

It’s not shocking to me that there are high volume kennels out there. I have continually stated that it is the high quality part that I would question. If a breeder has it – prove it. And then I have no objection.

[arapaloosa_lady]

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7831139]
Sorry I was using “kennel” to mean professional breeder or the line of dogs being produced. The website states the owner does not keep the dogs in a kennel situation and that the dogs are raised and live inside the house.

I think that is what I’m trying to determine. What is proper care? And what is a reasonable number of dogs?

These same questions exist on a smaller scale when I learn a small time trainer with a couple handfuls of dogs is breeding another litter to get a carbon copy of a favorite adult. I’ve seen that not go as planned four different times.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=S1969;7831323]The owner keeps 30 dogs in their house?? :eek:

I don’t think there is a way to define “proper care” and “reasonable number” without seeing for yourself. I think my 3 adult dogs is pushing the “reasonable number” in a regular house. Sort of kidding, but not totally.[/QUOTE]

Wait, I’m still confused about this too. How does one keep 30 dogs in the house unless they’re kenneled?

I’ve never seen any high quality high volume breeding situations. I’d love to visit one to see how they operate.

[Bicoastal]

[QUOTE=arapaloosa_lady;7835194]
Wait, I’m still confused about this too. How does one keep 30 dogs in the house unless they’re kenneled?

I’ve never seen any high quality high volume breeding situations. I’d love to visit one to see how they operate.[/QUOTE]

Sorry for the confusing terminology when the same word can mean different things. I think you are using the term “kennel” to define a cage, carrier, or crate.

I titled my thread “kennel” to mean “an establishment for the breeding of dogs.” Yay Websters!

In subsequent threads, I was tried to clarify I meant kennel as above and not chain link pens. The breeder states the dogs are not in a “kennel situation” which I took to mean like 10’ x 6’ chain link pens. The breeder states the property has yards.

Thank you, show folks, for the education! I thought if I entered three dogs I am three times more likely to win Best of Breed than if I enter one. Now I’m confused and don’t understand how it works. Thank you for righting my wrong info.